ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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Audiophiles consider themselves to be connoisseurs who possess elevated hearing skills that allow them to hear differences between.....
- break-in periods that extend beyond minutes into hours (perhaps hundreds!);
- amplifiers that measure the same (be they S/S or Tube)
- tone controls that are bypassed
- interconnects
- power-cords
- speaker cables;
- DACs/ CD-Players;
- Bit rates and lossy compression....
IMHO, the truth is that all of these combined will not add up to even 5% of how your system sounds. How a system sounds is >95% about room setup, room treatments, and speaker selection. ..Unfortunately, this doesn't leave enough for audiophiles to bicker about or for the audio industry to profit from, so these nonsensical, non-scientific notions will forever be embraced.
It's disappointing because this explains why so few people become audiophiles. I know people who contemplated buying nice, floor-standing speakers from an audio dealer but elected to go with Sonos because the salesman started in with "..to get the best of these speakers you'll need this (expensive) amplifier, and speaker cables, and ....etc etc..."
I find it interesting that we revere PWK as this no-BS revolutionary thinker.... yet, we embrace the very snake oil he detested.
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I wonder if "break-in" is followed in aerospace engineering? ...Do airliners come off the assembly line and pilots are told "don't expect rolll and yaw response to be immediate and linear for maybe 200-300 hours".
so ridic.
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5 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
This is about as worthless as an ABX test. And trust me, that’s pretty worth........wait for it.............less.
I'm all ears.
Please explain why "worthless".
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Please do us this favor....
Let one of your speakers play for 24 hours, then push them together and switch b/w them using your balance control while playing a mono song. Do you hear a difference?? I've done this with 4 previous speakers (Spica TC-50s, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A sigs, and Paradigm S8 v2.) and was not able to hear one iota of difference b/w the speakers. ..And i have excellent hearing and a keen sense of musical nuance honed from years of playing and listening to live/unamplified acoustic music. I don't say this as a boast, but as response to the inevitable criticism of my hearing acuity.
Speaker manufacturers (plus some component) know the break-in claim is nonsense but allow it to persist b/c it helps reduce the number of people who return speakers b/c they failed to live up to expectations (often set by wildly glowing reviews, on-line group-think, etc..). ...They know that if they specify a long-enough break-in time, people will simply grow accustomed to the sound of their new speakers and become resigned to keeping them.
Do you really think PWK would support the idea of 200 hr breakin period?? Of course not. ..Nor did Bob Crites.
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20 hours ago, richieb said:
If you are dead set on 100% US sourced your options will shrink - dramatically.
More likely, disappear entirely.
I suggest the OP makes his/her own speaker if that is so important. Personally, I'm satisfied that my speakers were assembled here in the US. ..Couldn't care less if some of the components that go into the speaker are foreign-sourced.
..It's a global economy. Accept it or DIY. ..Just make sure that every tool you use to do so is ALSO entirely made in the US from US-sourced parts. ..And that the car you drive to go get the parts is made entirely in the US from US-sourced parts. ..Or the trucks that deliver the parts you buy off the internet are made entirely in the US from US-sourced parts. And the computer you use to order the parts is made entirely..... etc.
you get the point
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1 hour ago, garyrc said:
It had the most versatile and best sounding tone controls I have ever encountered, which could come in handy with Belles, and sure did with the Khorns. Just in case you are one of those who eschew tone controls and attempt to playback flat, hoping to hear music the way the musicians heard it, or how it sounded from the audience, or in the control booth, etc., please see all of Chris A.'s posts on de-mastering on this forum, starting with "The Missing Octave." Generally speaking, records are not flat. Rock, pop, and metal often have a substantial amount of the bass removed, so the sound can be crammed up against fs. On vinyl, even classical is often attenuated in the bass, in order to make it fit on the record, because bass takes up more space.
I love this endorsement of tone controls. ..I feel the same way. ..And I feel similarly about the glorious Mono switch. Many older records (50's, 60's) had stereo micing that bordered on comical - the singer comes entirely from the left channel, instrumental accompaniment from the right. In such cases, these recording are so much more realistic sounding and enjoyable when played back in Mono.
Hence, I would recommend any modern day S/S Integrated amp that offers tone controls (or multi band eQ, like some Macs), and a mono switch. I personally don't see any advantage w/ separates. Indeed, I've had fewer hum/hiss grounding issues with my Integrated amps than with my separates over the years - probably owing to fewer cables, and common grounding. Unfortunately, there aren't many choices these days: McIntosh, Accuphase, Luxman, and Anthem are about the only brands offering Integrated amps that feature both tone and mono controls. Go to their websites, see which strikes your fancy visually, feature-set wise, price, etc.. I seriously doubt you'll hear a significant difference b/w them as they are all engineered to be linear, quiet, and produce tons of power with distorting. Audible differences b/w such amps are so small that there is considerable debate as to whether they truly exist or are merely a product of expectation bias.
And if you go with new McIntosh, don't bother with tubes. McIntosh's tube amps are so linear that they are sonically indistinguishable from their S/S gear - which to my thinking is a good thing. If you don't believe me, go to a Mac retailer and ask if any of the Sales people would be willing to do a "blind-folded" comparison of their Mac S/S and Tube amps. Mac designs their Tube amps to be linear, not "euphoric" or whatever warm/fuzzy term one wants to give to intentional distortion.
And no need for gobs of power. My Cornwall III's aren't as efficient as the Belles (I think) yet I can't get the wattage meters to go beyond 10 watts without inviting a visit from angry neighbors (over an acre away!). It's crazy, ridiculous, stupidly loud at that point. Way past flirting with hearing damage.
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On 9/6/2020 at 1:35 AM, scalawag said:Hornographic said: @muel, "that reminds me of the Yamaha 820 I used to run in the late 70s. Loved that thing."Muel said: @ Hornographic, "don’t blame you! Natural Sound is a good description."My "Natural Sound" CA-2010, cousin to the OP's CR-1020, still provides me with much listening enjoyment. Though I can afford something newer, not so sure I can justify the expense as my ears probably wouldn't be able to detect any difference in audio quality between the old and new hi-fi electronics.
Absolutely LOVE the features of this integrated! Viva La MODE, TONE, BALANCE Controls and Wattage meters! ..Sadly, these are all but gone these days.
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3 minutes ago, artto said:
Back to the original topic..............................
I recently had a McIntosh MA5300 stereo integrated amp in my system for a couple weeks. I have to admit, I was completely astonished - and not in a good way.
Nothing wrong with the sound (per se')**. But when I started hooking it up, that's when I was astonished. Yeah, I have a lot of equipment. And some of it is older vintage stuff, and some of it isn't.
The first rack of equipment, the one the MA5300 would be sitting in was fine. Then I (was) going to start hooking up the second rack of gear which is mostly a bunch of tape decks, analog and digital, as well as a SACD player.
I'm looking at the MA5300 back panel and thinking WTF? No outputs! NONE. z e r o. I can't even hook up half of my equipment! $5500 and no outputs, digital or analog.
And what was even more "troubling" is that in order to stream Tidal, I had to buy an outboard device, a NAD Bluesound 2i Node in order to get the streamed content into the MA5300.
The guy at Magnolia Audio tries to explain to me how the MA5300 is an "end point", not a central component. Excuse me? No, the speakers are an end point (actually the room is). I had to use a cheap Y-adaptor just to get the subs connected. What's the point in that? And to make matters worse, as I looked at the more expensive Mac integrated amps, things actually got worse as it went up in price! (like no remote control tone controls). Sheesh.
After doing more research I've found that this (lack of inter-connectivity) seems to be an issue with most more recent amplifiers/receivers with maybe the exception of home theater A/V components which I don't need nor want.
** the sound was fine - except for the lowest bass & subs. That Y adapter the McIntosh manual said to use is highly not recommended.
I totally agree with your surprise and disappointment. ...I have a McIntosh MA6600 which has a few more inputs and an audio-output but it is still pretty bare bones compared with the Yamaha receiver the OP pictures. And while I do LOVE the fact that McIntosh continues to include Bass/ Treble/ Balance/ and a Mono switch on all (as far as I know) Integrated Amplifiers, it's a disappointment that you have use a push/scroll know to access some of these features. ...Gone is the day when these worthwhile features - all intended to make the listening experience more customizable thus enjoyable - were accessed via dedicated single purpose switches and dials on the face of the amplifier. These days, only Accuphase and Luxman offer Integrated amps or pre-amps with these tools. And again, the idea that these features are to be avoided b/c the damage the audio signal is (IMHO) nonsense.
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Curious to know what problem has been solved by all of that contraption 🙂 if after all of that metal work it still does not have best-in-industry low wow and flutter and rumble then I would think all of that is a waste. Not to provoke but it looks like an exercise in over engineering
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4 hours ago, RandyH000 said:
you can replace the stylus on a MC cartridge ---they replace the entire tip in specialized shops -----and just as good if not superior to the original ----figure about 1k$ or more -
A shop returning a moving coil cartridge to better than new is a big claim. Before I would buy one, I would want to first make sure that is true.
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Did you mention that moving coil cartridges generally have non-replaceable stylus's? ...I just bought a new turntable (Technics SL-1210GAE) and a new cartridge (AT VM760SLC). ..I considered a MC cartridge but opted for a MC instead b/c the stylus can be replaced.
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My gripe about new gear is the scarcity of features. The Yamaha you show has a wonderful array of features that are incredibly hard to find in new gear these days that can make listening so much more enjoyable. ..Like you, I have a McIntosh Integrated (MA6600) and I chose it b/c it has a Mono switch, Bass., and Treble Controls. Heck, even a balance control is becoming less and less common. ..And the reason often cited in audio salons is that these features force compromises to be made to the audio signal. ..This, IMHO, is completely nonsensical. Some of our most cherished analog recordings (e.g., Steely Dan) was made using mixing boards that had literally hundreds of signal breaks, sliders, trim pots, etc... ..There's no way the relatively small handful of similar signal breaks needed to incorporate Mono, Balance, Bass, and Treble into an integrated amplifier is doing any audible damage. ..But the narrative lets gear companies of the hook for including them.
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10 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:
Whatever they could devise would add to the bottom line of the speaker. We can all have a warm fuzzy feeling about Klipsch, the American company that builds in the USA, and whatever else. But they are in the business to make money. I bet even if Roy told them this would add to the finished product he would be shot down. Even if it adds twenty bucks to the build of the speaker, that cuts into the profit.
Business is business........
You're only looking at the cost. ..You're not considering that if breaking in the drivers results in better sounding speakers for first 100 hours they would have happier customers, fewer returns to dealers, etc.. etc...
Allowing a $6k speaker to leave the factory not yet sounding it's best is unthinkable. ..Oh, and what about the measurements and quality control?? ..How does that factor in?
Sorry but you have your notions about break-in, I have mine. ..Let the readers of these posts decide for themselves which perspective is more plausible.
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24 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:
No, they wouldn't. There isn't a lot of margin on a 6K pair of speakers. And time is money. If they took the time to play each and every pair of speakers for 100 hours before packaging and shipping, how much do you think that would
a) subtract from the profit margin, or
b) add to the retail price
Now I don't believe a speaker that is unlistenable out of the box is going to turn into some fantastic gem in a month or two. But I do believe that speaker break in is real and I have heard it for myself on many occasions. I don't need Bob Crites or even Paul Klipsch himself to validate my opinion or negate it. Doesn't matter to me.
Shakey
There doesn't have to be a lot of margin. ..What does it take to build and finish a cornwall speaker? ..10-20 hours? And those hours are likely spread over a few days, right?? You mean they couldn't devise a way to exercise the drivers during that period if they wanted to?? ..Of course they could. And I don't believe they employ some sort of just-in-time-delivery factory process where the speaker drivers arrive within moments of the speaker cabinets being completed.
...The notion of speaker break-in persists for a reason that is wholly convenient to manufacturers and retailers. It helps reduce returns from unhappy customers. ..just MHO.
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30 minutes ago, JL Sargent said:
Nah, everything I buy needs a "break in" period from trucks to sewing machines to gasoline outboard motors, to speakers. Just like people, relationships between parts of a mechanism take time to get to know one another. My wife and I had to have a little break in period in our relationship. That was 20 years ago. Who said it wouldn't last?
You make a solid point
..But as it pertains to audio, I think it's mostly our ears that's doing the breaking in. And congrats on 20 years! ..I'm closing in on 30 myself.
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IMHO, If 10, 20, or even 100 hours of breakin would take a speaker from sounding "bright and tight" to "smooth and improved", Klipsch would surely find a way to incorporate driver break-in into their manufacturing process. ..Especially for a $6k pair of speakers.
Speaker break-in (beyond a few minutes of play) is mostly a notion that manufactures allow to persist because it helps reduce the buyers remorse that sets in for some when they realize the colossal improvement they had expected from a new pair of speakers is instead a small incremental one. The new owner is told to "just give a few hundred hours". Of course, during that time the owner either adjusts to the new sound or re-visits all the great reviews that led him/her to buy the speakers and convinces themselves they'll hear the greatness as time goes on. Just MHO.
Bob Crites, a noted authority on Klipsch, seems to feel the same.
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5 hours ago, Panelhead said:
The days of picking up a new SL-1200 Mk II for 400.00 is long past. The GAE models seem to have advanced the offering.
Great pics. ..Other than the Technics 1200, can you think of ANY other Audio product that has been around that long?? Oh yeah, Klipshorn, Cornwall, etc...
Maybe that's why I dig both brands as much as I do.
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4 hours ago, VNC Studio said:
Hoping to buy an SL-1210GR soon. 🙂
I had a GR for two years. ..It's a fabulous turntable, you'll be very happy with it. While it doesn't have quite the tactile build quality of the G, or GAE (which stands for "G - Anniversary Edition") it is still heads and shoulders above ANY other $1700 turntable I've come across. ..And, like the G/GAE, it has stellar speed stability and S/N ratio.
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4 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:
"The SL-1210GAE will be available from June 2020 and limited to only 1,210 units will be sold in the world (300 in the US)"
CongratsNot to put too fine a point on this but the US is likely getting less than 300. According to a top US retailer, of the originally intended 1000 to be made, 700 were going to Europe (with an included Nagaoka cartridge) and 300 going to other non-European countries. Of these, the US was to get about 190.
A week ago, Technics decided to increase the production an additional 200 units to 1210 total (kinda cute). Some of these incremental units will come to the US, but not all.. So the US will likely see more than 190, but still well below 300.
I put my name on a waiting list early on.. ..I believe some dealers are still taking names as they expect some people are probably going to add their names to several waiting lists (which they shouldn't do, but will...)
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27 minutes ago, ILI said:
I always get suspicious when post 'forgets' to mention the price. Smells like spam.
It costs 4,499euro here. https://audiotvcentrum.nl/product/technics-sl-1210gae-limited-edition/
um, I have 673 posts. ..And yes, table was $4k and cartridge was $670
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Pricey but awesome. Technics SL-1210GAE. ..If anyone is in market for a new turntable I highly recommend it. And fit/ finish is unmatched by any table I've seen costing less than a luxury car. Turns about as steadily as a CD player and nearly as quietly.
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On 4/15/2020 at 12:01 AM, Patricio said:
Love My Forte III.... terrific "live" sound
And I love the old school equalizer and receiver too! ..Today's no-frills approach to Audio of no tone controls, no balance control, no stereo/mono switch takes audio backwards, imho. These features, if sensibly implemented, make listening to music soooo much more enjoyable. ..And fun too.
Love your system.
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24 minutes ago, Edgar said:
That is the absolute truth, and nobody is disputing it. What I am (and I suspect the others are) disputing is the need for such rigor in an informal listening session. Informal is all that it was. Informal is all that it was claimed to be. And yes, despite (or perhaps because of) the informality, we heard differences and we formed opinions based upon them. There were a lot of people there who know what to listen for, and how to at least be aware of the influences that you mention. These were not strangers picked randomly off the street.
And what I am saying is since it lacked "such rigor" people should not be overly surprised and overly influenced by peoples' glowing account of how how much better the v. IV sounded. Again, and for the reasons I've mentioned >1, I think such a glowing reaction was predictable.
I DO look forward to hearing the v IV. Meanwhile, I'm quite reminded of when Paradigm introduced it’s new Beryllium tweeter in it’s signature series, the buzz was “OMG, the Ber. Tweeter BLOWS the titanium tweeter version out of the water!!!” I was then quite surprised that when I had the opportunity to compare them side-by-side, with volumes carefully matched, that the difference was FAR more subtle. Ditto when Vandersteen upgraded the 3A to the 3A sig. ..The diff was very very subtle.
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40 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:
That’s your opinion. Those that know me know that I don’t play games. You believe what you want. I sleep wel at night knowing what I am trying to do.
I am NOT suggesting you or anyone else was playing games! (Sheesh). And yes, you should sleep well at night. You make great products and employ a great many people. I've not disputed that.
Simply put: Bias is unavoidable when listening comparisons are not precisely volume-matched and blinded. I'm not suggesting you willfully misled people. I am, however, pointing out that you didn't go far enough to control the influence of biases. ..And you're in good company as ALL such invites by mfgs. to hear a new model probably are similar to yours.
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Please explain why "worthless". 
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Speaker Break In?
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Acknowledged. Fair point.