henry4841

Exactly why did you post the amplifier you are using on one of my post. I have no desire to have a conversation with someone being irrational not believing in test, data, facts and truths. Find someone else to annoy.

I do not think you will be disappointed. Old reliable audio company for those that can afford them. You can depend on it lasting for decades as well.

Forgot to post Firstwatt site showing damping factor. You will have to do some simple math described at the bottom of the page. https://firstwatt.com/prod.html

Does this mean yo do not want to know the truth? Just how is one to determine power usage if one does not use basic electronics and test equipment? Only way I know how to test the performance of an amp is with test equipment using basic electronic skills. I test all of my amplifiers before I am through with them. An ear can be fooled and the amp could be distorting and one will never know it unless they run some test. Happens all the time. Unless you are convinced to run some test you will never know the true power usage. Guessing and hype is just that. Home usage using our speakers require very little power. I hope all members consider quality over quantity when considering an amplifier with Klipsch speakers. I seriously doubt you believe what I say because you are making the discussion personal between us. No problem, I still want to be friends that disagree.

I believe you are worrying too much about damping factor. I am sure the damping factor of a MAC is plenty enough with our speakers. For some examples look at the damping factor of some of Nelson Pass Firstwatt amplifier and most are very satisfied with the bass performance on these amps and simple circuit 2 or 3 stage class A amplifiers are not known to have a high damping factor as say a class A/B SS amplifier. What exactly is the published damping factor because I do not understand where you got milliamp usage to determine damping factor.

Duke it is obvious I will not be able to convince you of the truth. And I do not need any drama on a social media forum so you can try as hard as you want to convince members I am wrong. On technical forums we do not deal in hype but truths. Transients, peaks will be shown on scope, that is what scopes are used for with much higher frequencies that audio ones so I am convinced Nelson Pass is speaking the truth when he says in his lab playing loud music the signal does not get out of a 1 watt window on peaks. Not a hard test to perform with someone that has test equipment and an electronic background to perform the test. Members can believe what you say or Nelson Pass an audio genius. Electronics does not lie. That being said I have never run the test myself using a scope. See no need, I trust what Nelson has shown to doubters. I like it now that you are saying approximately 6 watt average but I seriously doubt you are using that much with Heritage speakers on average. My test prove otherwise. Simple to do with a AC voltmeter which I have described previously on the thread. Play your music as loud as ever and just measure the amount of AC voltage you see on peaks. You can then use ohms law to calculate the true amount of power you are using. Just as an example for those that do not want to do the math. If you see 2.83 V's you are using 1 watt. If you see 6V's your usage is 4.5watts. Ten volts 12.5watts. Personally I stay under the 2.83V's on peaks with average usage much less, millivolts. With 6watts of power you will see 7V's AC on your meter if you believe you are using that much on average. I am doubtful you will see 7V's on peaks myself having performed the test many times myself before I was convinced. This is not to say one can turn the volume up to 7V's average and be shown on a meter but I doubt you would be able to stay in the room with an average 6 watts with our speakers. You would have peaks much higher than 7V's AC. Personally I have nothing more to say on this thread concerning power usage. Members can trust facts and figures or hype. I have not seen any test you have performed but perhaps you are using the watts you are saying in a room in your home. How am I supposed to know. Let's be friends that disagree.

? Did not know I had an avatar but the Little Sweetie is a fantastic little amplifier designed by our tube guru Maynard tubefanatic. The sound brings me back to what I was hearing 60 or more years ago.

Said much the same in my above message while you were posting yours. There is no perfect amplifier for everyone. All sound different but as stated above the biggest difference one is going to immediately notice is a SET tube amp over other types. There are some single ended SS amplifiers that are really close but not that common. Nelson Pass sells some SE SS amps.

Just thought I would add, the biggest difference in sound is between a SET and other types of amplification. Naturally those that have heard many of both types will prefer one over the other. SET tube amps is my favorite, not to say I do not enjoy my others types of amplification as well.

A single ended ,SET, tube amplifier will never need re-biasing if done correctly when built. Majority that is, the ones with cathode biasing which most are. If biased correctly the tubes will more than likely never need replacing depending of course on tubes used. In other words no maintenance just like a SS amplifier.

Nothing wrong with A's.

You are correct. Corrected now. Should have said V-fet transistors which are static induction transistors much like the SIT transistors made only for Nelson Pass before the company closed. Originally made by Sony if memory is correct way back in the 70's. SIT transistors have curves in the data sheet much like a triode tube. Most all other transistors have curves like a pentode. My understanding is they are still being made but only available to the military because they are extremely fast. Used for radar and I expect other uses as well.

I am reluctant to post on this thread anymore because of my lack of social skills. I want to apologize if I offended anyone with anything I have posted and it was certainly not my intention. My thing is audio amplifiers and to answer your question each and everyone of Nelsons amplifiers are different in their design and sound. If one wants to hear the difference you must buy or build them. At least the ones that Nelson has generously released for publication. There are many of us on diyaudio.com in the Pass section that do the very same thing. Simple answer on why so many, just playing. It is what audio electronic nerds do at diyaudio.com and some other technical forums. Electronics does not lie. When I said boards one has to understand that most of the Firstwatt offerings use the same power supply and chassis with different audio boards so if makes it easy to swap boards of a new design by Nelson in an amp you have already built saving the major cost of building a class A amplifier. The biggest expense in building a class A amplifier are the heat sinks in a chassis and the cost of the power supply. I estimate the cost of building a Firstwatt clone these days to be between $700 and a $1000. One could spend much more depending on parts selection and appearance. You can go to Firstwatt.com and read about the different Firstwatt amplifiers Nelson has designed and sold. https://firstwatt.com/ Also on the site is an article section with many of the published articles Nelson has wrote since 1977. https://firstwatt.com/articles.html I have built many of them as well. Some like the V-fet amplifiers I own are nearly impossible to build anymore unless one wants to spend an unreasonable amount of money finding and purchasing the obsolete static induction transistors. I have the PP V-fet version being one of the first to do so on the diyaudio forum. Right after then I asked Nelson on the forum about designing a SE version using the V-fet transistors and he said he would and did but if was a few years later. I also built and still have that one as well. The sound is very much like a single ended 300B amplifier in SS comparable to the retail SIT-1 and SIT-2 many members on this forum own. I am glad you like the amplifiers you have and there are many good things to say about the newer class D amplifiers. I am old enough to remember reading about them in the late 70's I believe I am close on the date. Back then they were lacking in high frequency response and really did not take off. I have built and own many of them over the years as well and I now have two I really consider not lacking anything when it comes to high end audio reproduction. Very nice sounding with tons of power for what they cost. The last few years I have been mostly building tube amplifiers. You may not have seen the projects I have posted on this forum. They can be found in the tube section with a step by step build guide of me building them. Most all the decent amplifiers sold now will sound good with our speakers. I would not say any are bad sounding from all I hear and read. The great thing about our speakers is we can use the 1 watt tube offerings or go for mega watt amplifiers as well. Not many speakers can do that. Enough rambling from a worn out cantankerous old man this morning.

Islander there are some class A SS amps I like the sound of but in an A/B comparison a good tube amp is going to sound better. I have something like 6 or 7 Firstwatt amplifiers right now with many more boards I have tried over the years. For SS lovers they sound really good but the edge goes to a tube amp. Class A amps use mosfets instead of BJT's and there is a difference in the sound between the two. As always some prefer the sound of one over the other even between SS amplifiers. Even some of the class D offerings will please many and many are reasonably priced and have tons of power. Wave of the future for the masses is going to be class D amplifiers. Rapidly taking over the market but still serious audiophiles will have better choices if they can afford it.

I agree with what you just said Islander and I have probably said too much. A long time member on this forum whose trade before retiring was electronic repairs told me I am wasting my time trying to convince some of the truth and facts of the power needs with our speakers. Guys there is an easy test anyone can do at home with a decent AC voltmeter. Play your music as loud as you ever have in your room and measure the peak amount of AC voltage you are using. Then by using ohms law knowing the voltage and the ohm value of your speaker you can determine the amount of power you are truly using. Not as good as seeing it on a scope but plenty close enough. Below is an ohm's law calculator for those with no electronic background. I believe most will be shocked on how little power, on transients, you are truly using. The average power is going to much less. More than likely you will see milliwatts of usage. It will show just how great our speakers truly are with any amp on the market. Nothing wrong with mega watt amplifiers if the 1st watt sounds good but it is like buying a 200 mph car and never driving it over 70mph on the freeway. I say go for it if it pleases you. Absolutely nothing wrong with doing so but certainly not necessary. Another thing if one wants the best sound, considered best by the best in the industry, you will one day want a SET amplifier. That being said there is no one amplifier that is going to suit everyone. All amps sound different. That is what I have found building probably close to 75 to 100 amplifiers in my 74 years. Just trying to pass on what I have learned for anyone that is interested before I am gone. https://ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator

If anyone wants to take this discussion of power needs of 100db speakers further I will more than happy to take this subject up on a technical forum. I belong to the majority of them but consider diyaudio.com as the one I like best. Those that only talk BS do not last long on a forum where truth and facts are more important than making friends. All that really matters is that single ended triode amplifiers are perfect with 5 to 7 watts for our speakers. Anyone that disagrees can certainly spend their money on something else. By the way the colorful reviewer guy on youtube, Steve Guttenberg, has nothing but praise for the Decware Zen with it's 2 watts of power with speakers other than horns. I guess many on this forum will consider him stupid like me and Nelson Pass.

First to admit my social schools are somewhat lacking. Sorry if anyone is offended by anything I said. I would not say there is an optimum power need but I will say a single ended triode amplifier with 5 to 7 watts will be more than adequate for most on this forum using our speakers. I want slightly more in a SS amplifier being a SS amp clips horribly whereas a SET that clips at 7watts will sound perfectly fine at say 10 watts. In other words you will not notice it. Nature of tube amplifiers. Being that I consider class A is superior to any other form of amplification one is limited to 15 to 25 watt amplifiers which I consider amplifiers by Nelson Pass as the best. Many will not say superior but no one with electronic knowledge will dispute as being purist form of amplification. Why, because the audio signal is not manipulated in any way and another plus is less parts in simple class A reproduction. By the way all SET tube amplifiers are run in class A.

The last thing I need is arguments on a social forum. It is not the power need that makes a SS amplifier better in the bass dept but the design inherent in a SET tube amplifier. I assure you that power is not what is making bass sound better with a SS PP amplifier. But I have yet to find a SS amplifier with the vocals and mids that is as good as a SET amplifier. As PWK said, music lives in the mids. But if one considers bass as more important they should stick with a PP SS AB amplifier or better yet a class D amplifier. I have two class D amplifiers that make the best bass I have ever heard along with decent mids and highs as well. Both are stated as 200 watts per channel as well.

Ridiculous question. I see how this is going to go. If you and others believe only 200 watts are needed for our speakers get it. This means anyone who spends $25K for a Japanese SET 300b amp is wasting their money because there are no speakers they could be used on if our horns needs way more power than the 6 or 7 watts a SET 300B makes. What speaker do you think such an amp could be use on if it will not be enough power for 100db speakers? This thread on power usage has got ridiculous with those that cannot understand simple electronics.

Should we as a forum let untruths be propagated without facts? Should we allow fallacies to stand without someone speaking up? I did not mean to insult or snipe at anyone this morning and I am sorry if you see it that way. I am just stating truths which knowledgeable people understand disagreeing with people that speak otherwise. I have around 25 working amplifiers and many more old receivers at the present time and I assure you all sound different from each other if one is able to hear the differences. But this has nothing to do with the discussion of power usage of our Klipsch speakers. If someone does not believe facts and figures from those that know and understand electronics I do not know what more to say so if the majority want me to be quite I can certainly not say anymore and let this forum believe what they want and stick to technical forums where truth is important. Easy to prove truths in electronics because untruths will just not work no matter what one says.

Sir, I do not want to argue for the sake of arguing as you have shown you want to do but it is obvious to me and the other electronic engineers, technicians and geeks on this forum you do not know what you are talking about. Those that understand the basics of tube circuits understand that the high voltage is only necessary for the tube to function. A transistor can do the same with a fraction of the voltage a tube requires and make far more watts. From previous post of yours about power needs of our speakers I also now know you do not know or understand the function and purpose of an oscilloscope and how it captures signals including transients where they can be seen. I see no purpose to continue discussing electronics with someone who will not listen to reason. A layman's test of power usage of a speaker can be performed with just an AC volt meter using ohms law with no elaborate test as Nelson Pass has done using a scope. I am first to admit I am not an electronic professional only a geek but I do have a basic understanding of electronics building and repairing audio products. I say all of this with no disrespect to you or others that consider the needs of our speakers to be mega watts but the fact is it is just not true. I am sure you are well respected in your field and have way more knowledge of that field than I do and I mean no disrespect. I want us to be friends and not adversaries and I hope we can move on from this.

Tubes rule when in comes to sound.

I am a fan of Jean Hirago. My understanding is he was the first to say music sounds best with a little 2nd harmonics and a touch of 3rd.

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Certainly not. Sorry if it seemed that way. I enjoy reading everything you post and do not remember anything you post that I would disagree with.