Pondoro
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Posts posted by Pondoro
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Upside down mouse traps (set) will teach a cat “don’t jump up here!” without hurting it.
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I believe 1,3,6,7,8,9 are lies (that is I agree with the author of the article.) This based on 43 years of engineering experience and several years before that of both college and amateur screwing around with electronics. I will admit to never doing any blind tests. I believe that tubes make a difference but I am not prepared to say that they are better. I base that on having listened to many tube and transistor amplifiers and radios. I do not claim that some theoretically perfect tube amp and an equally theoretically perfect transistor amp might not sound the same. But as used in circuits I am certain there is a difference. Again, I have done no testing and I am not claiming tubes are better, simply different.
Evaluating number 5 (feedback is "bad") would require several expert teams building their best possible amps, some with feedback and some without. Then a huge test with lots of listeners. To prove feedback is "bad" a vast majority of the listeners would have to agree. But then with next year's models who knows? Design expertise might evolve to the point that feedback amps become better. Bait casting reels ruled fishing until spincasting reels took over, but then plain casting reels came back. Technology sometimes evolves such that old school becomes new school again. So I am skeptical that the mere presence of feedback proves anything. I am actually skeptical of any technology arguments (tubes are bad/good, horns are bad/good, ports are bad/good, digital is bad/good). Some eccentric designer is going to prove a technological argument wrong, nearly every time. His (or her) circuit will do it "wrong" but sound good.
I believe perfect digital circuits all sound the same, and I think digital can get a lot closer to perfection than analog, but in the end we all listen to analog signals. I think the conversion from digital to analog and the inevitable analog circuits downstream of the digital front end were given short shrift in the early days of digital and are still poorly done in cheap equipment today. So a lot of digital stuff does sound worse.
I will go farther and say that great analog designs with very low THD may still sound different, despite the claims that "THD is so low as to be inaudible." I say that based on years of building acoustic instruments. When I listen to an acoustic instrument THD is zero. But the way you strike or strum it and the way you hold it make noticeable changes to the sound. Temperature and humidity change the sound. Two "identical" instruments sound different. If wood and flesh and air can do this I believe transistors and capacitors can also affect sound in ways that THD does not capture.
About those golden ears. I do not have 'em. I like the sounds of some stereos better than others. I like the Klipsch speakers that I own (H1's and R-51PM's.) I don't think I hear better than any of you. I noticed (twice) when a cheap sound card was replaced in a computer, but I never did blind tests. I don't have so much invested in my system that I worry about my ego demanding that I hear a difference. One time I installed a $40 sound card for reasons other than sound quality, it replaced the "free" onboard sound card that probably cost $2. I was pleasantly surprised to notice the improvement. The second time I added a $99 Schiit DAC to a different computer, again replacing the low-cost built in sound card, again noticing an improvement. I didn't say that " the soundstage opened up" or "a veil was lifted." The music just sounded better. No golden ears here. My wife and daughters all noticed the new silver box next to the computer (the Schiit DAC) and asked what it was. I said, "It replaced the built in sound card", I did not predict any improvement or coach them. They all three (independently) basically said, "The music sounds better." One actually said, "Wow." They noticed the improvement. So I will recommend bypassing the onboard sound card on a computer if you want to use it for music.
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The Schiit Mani 3+ is a DAC, I realize you don’t need a DAC. But at $100 it is cheaper than most designer cables and it’s said to clean the USB of noise. I’m very happy with mine, it replaced my sound card as a connection to powered speakers and made a noticeable improvement over the sound card. I never compared it to bare USB and a competing DAC.
I missed the fact that you have a Yggy. The new Yggy’s have the Unison USB circuit, does yours have that or can it be upgraded?
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I have Heresy's (12" woofer) in one 24x15 foot room and R-51PM's (5") in a 12x16 foot room. Hersey system is at one end, the R-51's are on the long wall firing across, about 8 feet apart. Each system has an identical 10" powered sub (Polk, 50 watts). I don't demand a lot of bass. The Hersey's integrate better with the sub, the system seems more "unified." I am happy with both.
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My R-541PM's have USB, Optical and RCA analog input. So I think USB or Optical SPDIF should work. There is definitely a DAC in the R-51PM's I thought the 41's were the same but smaller speakers/amp.
I use the R-51's with optical digital from a TV and a DAC into the RCA from a computer. But I have gone in through the USB from a computer.
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What is the tool cost? i.e. How much does the cutter cost, divided by how many horns it can cut before it is used up? I've worked on metal projects where the tool cost exceeded the material cost buy a large margin.
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I bought a Schiit Modi 3+ ($99) and it bypassed the 3.5mm sound out on my Windows PC. The difference was noticeable. The PC was using the built in motherboard soundcard to supply the 3.5 mm output but the path is now USB=> Modi => powered speakers via RCA. My wife and daughters noticed the improvement without serious "coaching", in each case I pointed to the new silver box and said, "That replaced the soundcard" and they all three basically said, "Wow!" In both the before and after state the speakers were Klipsch R-51PMs with a low power (50 watt) 10" Polk subwoofer.
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I'm running PC >Modi > Klipsch (powered) R-51PMs for our living room PC, watching online concerts. Like you I am very happy and the gear doesn't fill the room. Heresy's in the "Man Cave" where my wife literally cannot go because it is down in the basement and her artificial knees won't take her there.
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And I will confess to bracing the backs of my Heresy One's. Tapping the backs revealed them to be much more resonant than the sides. Two 3/4"x1" diagonals were free from my scrap bin and the backs were off anyway as I was installing banana jacks. They stiffened the backs a lot based on tap testing. I could not hear a difference but left them in.
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10 hours ago, billybob said:
I liked my 500's as they were stock.
Been coming to the conclusion that I must like the resonance of cabinets.
Beware the person who jumps on this statement and says, "Your cabinets are COLORING the sound!! How can you LIKE this?!?!?" I've seen those comments. Most cabinets vibrate (I'm sure someone has sand-filled walls with viscoelastic dampers.) The vibration may be audible. But the designer liked the sound of the drivers in that cabinet. Just slaying the vibrations after the fact might have other effects that de-optimize the system. Taking your drivers out and putting them in a 3" thick graphite-composite cabinet with 6 inches of lead shot around it assumes that the drivers will behave exactly the same and the only effect is that some parasitic/audible vibrations will disappear. Maybe. But maybe the drivers and crossover were chosen with the cabinet surrounding them and the system works.
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I grew up on 60's and 70's rock but I also listen to traditional Irish, Country and Western and Big Band. Recently I have been listening to a lot of jazz and big band - Ellington, Basie, Miller, Goodman, Sinatra.
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I just got a Modi 3+ and use it between a computer and (powered) Klipsch R-51PM's. It is vastly superior to the 3.5 mm audio output from the PC. The speakers will also accept direct USB, that is a closer contest but I still like the Modi better. Liked the Modi so well I ordered a Vali tube preamp to go in between because, what the heck?
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20 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:
Funny you say that.....I was going to say something like is there an hour meter on speakers! But sometimes my attempt at humor doesn't go over so well around here 😄
I have three or four hour-meters, found in my dad’s barn when he died. They require 12 volts. I’d part with one or two of them if someone had a great plan...
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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:
Real data, perhaps, but relevant? Are these changes audible when the listener is not aware of which he/she is hearing?? That is the question that matters (IMHO).
Again, ANYONE can test the audibility of break-in by simply playing one of their new speakers for 1-2 days, push it next to the other - then switch b/w the two while playing mono music.
A good point. I don’t design speakers. One question, all those measured parameters that did change, how much would they affect a speaker design? I truly don’t know. But those parameters changed a fair amount.
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4 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:
An article worth checking out is below. Note that some parameters can wildly change over the course of 80 hours on some woofers, others not so much. Also worth noting is that this is a 40 hz sine wave which will be more aggressive than simply playing material at normal volumes. Also, these are just normal 5-6" woofers. If you get a large 18" or something with dual spiders and a very stiff suspension, that's going to be much worse. You can't break in a stiff 18" sub with normal music at normal listening levels in 15 minutes, doesn't work that way, those spiders needs to be spanked for quite awhile.
https://www.gr-research.com/burn-in-myths.html
At last real data. I was sure that flexible rubber, plastic, Kevlar, paper, etc. would break in but I am surprised how long the changes continue. My experience with metal suggests that vibrating metal will not break in.
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Interesting article on the placebo effect:
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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:
So you have NO interest in distinguishing REAL audible differences from those created by expectation bias? Well, you and I could not be more different in that regard.
My wife and I have a combined 30 years in the pharma industry. Thankfully, there is an entire paradigm for separating real from imagined efficacy differences b/w medications seeking FDA approval. Some would find it surprising that something like 30% of patients who take a placebo experience a significant reduction in pain after experiencing a strain/sprain or contusion. No harm, no foul if the placebo is cheap and safe. ...But in the audio world, the parallel could be spending thousands of dollars on a DAC that is indistinguishable from a $50 one from parts express.
And the placebo test is an attempt to let a limited population determine, once and for all, using proper statistics, if there is any real difference in outcome. That spares the rest of us from wasting time and money on something that has no measurable benefit. Blind testing in stereo is an attempt to do the same.
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7 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:
piston engines do break in, most new vehicles start getting better gas mileage like at 10,000 miles. Whether that applies to a jet engine or not, I have no idea, but I'm not sure what else could require break in on a plane.
Jet engines have rotating seals. Leakage increases for a while and then steadies out. They are designed to run correctly with the steady state leakage. Manufacturers carefully break them in before shipment. But it doesn’t take long.
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I believe there is some break in period for speaker cones. A woofer is made of paper or plastic or metal, paper has fibers, plastic or rubber or foam have long chain polymers. These fibers flex when the speaker vibrates. I’ve never looked closely at a metal speaker but I’ll bet it has polymers at the inside and outside edges. But imagine a woofer reproducing 80 Hz. It flexes 80 times in the first second! I think the break in period can’t be too long. Now I am very experienced with metal fatigue. Metal has no break in period. You can wear it out (automobile engines dominant end of life failure mode is sliding wear, and careful break in avoids stressing the engine until the lubrication system is running with full flow. You can loosen seals via wear (turbochargers and jet engines need careful break in to get the rotating seals just right). But for back and forth vibration metal either breaks or it lasts forever, depending on how hard you bend it. Or life ends with corrosion or an over stress situation. I don’t believe metal breaks in.
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If you sit down and listen to them and it sounds good I would not worry about "do they match?"
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1 hour ago, Ray_pierrewit said:
A quick mockup I drew just to be clear, as I don't have much working electronics knowledge, according to the gentleman's calculation over on audio asylum.
Does this look correct?
I don’t see how this helps anything. The 12 ohm woofer is not going to get louder than it was. The amp will deliver a bit more power.
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Near field makes a huge difference. I have a computer desk where I sit with my back to the wall in a 24’ long room. My back is to the wall because I need a green screen for video. I put two Klipsch R-51PM’s on the desk as near field computer speakers. Wow! They sounded great. The ports were firing at the far wall, 20-ish feet away. No one would have recommended those speakers as mains in a 24’ long room. But on my desk they were great. Those were my first Klipsch speakers, my wife has now stolen them for her TV. She’s a great lady and let me replace them with Heresy Ones.
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My '83 Heresy set benefits from one or two small (10" 100 Watt) subwoofers. I have never tried it with larger subs.
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Please share pictures.
Appropriate room size for which speaker?
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
I have never heard a modern Klipsch tower. I bought a pair of R-51PM's as computer speakers, added a small powered subwoofer, and my wife stole them for the TV room! Bought some used Heresy's (not for the computer, for my man cave). Love them but almost immediately wondered of I should have bought Cornwalls. So if you are 70% leaning towards Heresy speakers ask yourself, "Can I fit Cornwalls into my room?" I love the Heresy's (and I added a sub to them, love them even more) but the Cornwalls call me.