analogman
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Posts posted by analogman
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Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out.
What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables.
For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves.
Over the last 10 years or so I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs and worrying about the "cost" of something and who might be swayed by what some here consider spurious or specious advertising is the last thing on their minds.
CEOs NOT "worrying" about costs is one of the big reasons this Country is in the sh%t hole it is in
On many levels
Politicians as well
Credit consumers as well
Good sense is good sense no matter who you are or your station in Life
Citing the pissing away of money simply because you are able isn't a very convincing position to my mind
Analogman
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Congratulations on your successful marketing?
Analogman
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I've understood since I was a child that MY "blue" just may not be YOUR "blue" (or that chocolate ice cream may not "taste" the same to you as it does to me) once the information from my/your tongue is processed by my/your brain respectively
For all anyone knows (and we'll have to assume that for the sake of discussion, 'cause no one will ever "know" with certainty), MY "blue" just MIGHT be YOUR "green" as far as what it is a given brain is "seeing"
These things are taught (a banana is yellow) but the actual imprint as "seen" by the eyes and interpreted by the brain, from individual to individual is and always will be a mystery
I have also known and understood that not all chocolate ice cream is created equal That can be proven
Would a bowl of mediocre grocery store chocolate ice cream "taste" "better" if served up in a fine porcelain bowl in an upscale restaurant, accompanied by some flowery description on a dessert menu, than it does at a kitchen table in a modest mobile home? I am sure, and combined with the subsequent charge for it, it just "might" with SOME folks (in fact I know it does, to THEIR MINDS)
But not in the same fashion as my "blue" and your "blue"
I could probably do a better job with examples but my point is this: does the fine porcelain bowl do anything to change the fact that the ice cream is of a very pedestrian variety? The ambiance of the expensive "upscale restaurant? No
Could this setting possibly give or "create" in the mind of this consumer the IMPRESSION or PERCEPTION that the ice cream is better than it really is EVEN BY THAT SAME SAID CONSUMER'S STANDARDS?
Absolutely Trendy, "upscale" clip joints take advantage of this all the time I agree on that point
It is well understood that food will taste differently depending on your emotional and physical state Same as the way your system will sound to you Never audition equipment when you are pissed off or tired
But different in this case does not mean "better" or "worse" in any objective way (if someone put dirt or drain cleaner in the ice cream) Or the ice cream was made without the sugar
The difference perceived would be wholly determined by the individual's interpretation and subject to too many of the intangibles of an individual's psychology...........too many variables to pigeon hole or define absolutely
What is it that they are taking advantage of? The gullibility and lack of any degree of real sophistication on the part of their patrons
When I say lack of sophistication, I mean by that, the emotional component of desire to eat that crummy bowl of ice cream at THAT particular trendy establishment is more powerful than the reality their tongue is sending their brain
So, at least for that dinning experience, reality (facts of the matter) takes a back seat and is overridden by DESIRE (pick your own word if you like) rather than the reality of the situation and events And in many instances the price they are paying (versus actual tangible return or in this case, lack thereof) is overridden by the value placed on the "ambiance" of the experience
This is a very real part of the Human condition and the purveyors of all goods and services have taken advantage of this condition, to some degree or another, since time immemorial It is a complex phenomena in that the forces driving it are as varied as there are suggestible individuals but the one constant is, it is definitely a psychological/emotional phenomena and has NOTHING to do with the actual quality of the goods being sold
It is all about presentation, whether it be the packaging of a product, the endorsements a product receives or the atmosphere in which a product is consumed (or used) Group think and current popularity are significant driving forces behind this as well The internet has only exacerbated this situation and made things worse at times..............
None of which has any impact of what that product ACTUALLY or ultimately is (or is not)
Take a $50 run of wire, dress it up, give it a catchy name and present it to the buying public in a fine mahogany box accompanied by a bit of eloquent prose along with a $1,500 price tag? You've still only "got" a $50 run of wire
No matter how many people fall for it (same as the ever evolving what "is" and what "is not" "Art")
(spare me the "eye of the beholder" cliches) Sometimes sh%t is just that, sh%t
Could this possibly have any influence on what some folks might hear from their systems if they buy these wires? Sure it could. But only because the purveyor of these fine conductors has tapped into that complex phenomena I am feebly attempting to describe/define here now
The fact that they understand all too well that their marks WANT to hear a difference, not that they are actually offering any real difference, good, bad or otherwise
Simply tapping into a Human frailty for profit
BUT in most instances these illusions are short lived People grow tired of any given trend or "flavor of the month" so we witness the never ending release and development of "new" wire technologies and products, few of which possess any merit based on, in or about reality or physics............all marketing and pseudo science or theory at best
Just take a look on Audiogon on any given day
Conductors once held forth as the "last set of cables you'll ever need" or "the best speaker wires I have ever heard" are routinely being offered for sale for pennies on the dollar
If they were so wonderful in the first place, then why? Maybe, just maybe, after the bloom is off the rose and time has been spent with these wonderful wires reality kicks in? Or maybe the powerful marketing has this particular seller longing for that next perfect chocolate ice cream experience? Some internet blog has convinced this person that the new Super Duper MK.II is what they need and is a better match for their equipment? I don't know the answer to that.......................
But I do know bullshit when I see it and for the MOST part, "high end" conductors are just that, no different than all the palaver about OFC Most folks do not even know why OFC even exists (well nowadays they might thanks to Wikipedia) but it sure justifies in their minds the confiscatory (borderline criminal) pricing of what is actually a very ordinary, accessible product (high purity copper) The "high purity" "long crystal/long grain" crap or whatever it is, is but one of the many "selling points"..........
I hear what's been shouted here to the point of obnoxiousness (I'm right, you're wrong and if you don't agree with me you must be stupid, 'cause I'm Spiritual about it all); that for at least one individual this hobby is more than the sum of it's parts and is enjoyed as a TOTAL aura rather than simply assembling an audio illusion producing machine/system
More power to ya pal I'm not that complicated a Being I enjoy industrial art as much as anyone and the history is a treat as well, but for me the primary goal of Audio is the pleasure that Music brings
Angsting over bullshit like cables is a distraction (and unwarranted)
But what I find interesting is (more so than the losing game of "debating" the virtues of over priced wire) is that with a large number of RECORDINGS there is almost, note I said ALMOST, universal agreement
Even among folks who may not particularly care for the Music but who do recognize and enjoy good RECORDINGS
And that ALMOST universal agreement extends to those who use zip cord as well as those rattling their audiophool approved cables
Not to mention the vast system discrepancies, played on everything from modest (cheaply built receivers) and record changers to audiophool approved mono blocks and the finest transcription record playing machines available
Rudy Van Gelders, Living Stereos, Classic's many projects etc You get the point, well made, well recorded records
I find it funny that for the part that really matters and has the greatest effect on outcome regardless of what it is played on, or through, there is such widespread agreement
Which confirms, in my mind anyway, that the Emperor Has No Clothes when it comes to spendy wire
And reinforces my skepticism (I am being deliberately kind)
Even assuming the gimmick features of these wires "work", they are at best EQing with cable at a great financial cost
And THAT is BullShit and would not be happening if the insecurities and vanity had been kept at bay
I am a fan of good circuit design, speakers with minimal "humps" and well conceived and built power supplies
All hooked up with the correct type of wire, not what is currently in vogue with the Fremer's of this world
Get those parts right as best you can and you will quickly quit fretting over wires
Analogman
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You speak oI speak of experiences.
I think I answered this already. Your experiences are predicated on self deception, mine are not. Funny that you advocate so strongly for it, yet admit that you don't use fancy wire yourself. You don't exactly walk the walk. I think you're just trolling for attention now.
Be kind, it COULD be logorrhea
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"We don't yet know how to quantify individual experience."
Uh, yes we do, at least for expensive wire
I am looking for the old article now, subject being "high end" "high performance" (as in "boutique") and a sales slump back some time ago
I am struggling to remember who it was that was interviewed, but the solution was:
1. repackage and rename the wire or cable (the new incarnation/version technique, aka, "MK II" Version 2.0 etc worked/works well)
(gotta do this as every incarnation is represented as the penultimate)
2. quadruple the suggested retail
Results? Sales went through the roof (*at least for this particular "flavor of the month" magic cable, while it was in fact THE flavor) Other makers followed suit
This all being around the time of the Shun Mook "Magic of Mpingo" trend and Stereophool's suggestion to strategically place coins on top of your speaker boxes for better sound............along with the who could forget it, Totem Acoustic's "Beak"
Take a look
(seems it's still around)http://beta.stereophile.com/writer-p/107?page=15
Enjoy The Music!
Analogman
* the flavors/trends seem to change from issue to issue of various rags and who writes what when it comes to the magical properties these rarefied conductors enjoy
time has seen 'em come and go in popularity as well
is our hearing evolving that quickly!?
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This should resolve the questions for once and all:
I love it!
"I've downgraded my system and no longer need the 4M length. Credit cards will be accepted from members with outstanding feedback; Add 3% additional for this option."
Thanks for the smile!
Analogman
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I'm not telling anyone what to buy. Indeed, I am offering an alternative view, based on real science, so that people can make up their own minds. If they decide to spend kilobucks on wire, fine. If they don't, they will have more cash available to buy better phono carts, amps, speakers, etc., things that few would argue will make a real difference in their systems.
Unless you make a specific recommendation, you are reduced to nothing more than saying you know best what others should do.
Right. Once I hold you accountable, you can't answer. You realize that all you are ever trying to do is manage the happiness of others. I have just proven that. So look, I totally appreciate that you have a path you like to follow. My suggestion is let others follow theirs without resorting to all the made up stories, Don.
Mere words from the Duke of Duplicity, the Master of Mendacity, the Baron of Bullshit. If you read what I wrote, I said people should make up their own minds after reading all viewpoints, not just ads or reviews. Your bizarre comments make no sense. As usual.
Well Don, I can see you are not accustomed to being in discussions with science or engineering people. You are unable to follow the thread of the argument, unable to generate rational responses, and as always, resort to attacks on my character as being the best response you can muster up.
I'm sorry you aren't up to the task here. I'd say go play with others at your level, because you aren't at my level and it's pointless for me to keep trying to bring you along here. I'd say "good try" but it wasn't even up to that standard.
Wow
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Oh boy, another one!
"High end" cables and wire
Trading on the fact that a great many folks have made poor buying decisions/matches with their equipment purchases and now place great hope on fixing those bad choices by what is (maybe) effectively EQing with wire
In other words, preying on the unhappy; unhappy for WHATEVER the reason
Others? SOME NOT ALL More money than good sense and/or objective knowledge/understanding or just plain gullible.........
Yes, I said it, gullible (and insecure) Or maybe just ignorant of reality (in the literal sense of the word, as in not knowing)
I do concur on one point that has been made here; there is a definitive draw to audio jewelry for some and more power to them that can afford it and want it
But that does not mean it does a thing to improve sound quality beyond the mentioned placebo effect
Even if "Brand X" mega bucks cable did all it claimed (and could even be measured), it's PREDICTABLE suitability would be limited to whatever pieces of gear it was designed/matched to (I am thinking primarily capacitance) if it even enjoyed any "design" efforts beyond the marketing department
Assuming all potential claims to be true of a "high end" cable, when used with a specific set up, there are still too many variables to take into consideration when put to use out in the "wild"
I gave up on wasting my money on things like heavy *** Cardas wires that used RCAs too big for my vintage equipment and weighed so much that they bent and deformed many of my jacks on newer pieces over time
Yes, I too was a Stereophool subscriber. Caused me to sell a lot of good equipment and buy a lot of over priced over hyped (actually LIED about) junk
I was gullible and fell into the trance of soothing hypnotic sales babble and promises
Sounded so good, all those adjectives and snake oil explanations of how things "work"
Words like "proprietary", "patented", "exclusive", "transparent" and "unique".....................
I just HAD to get me some! I was so excited!
Was a hard learning curve but eventually (thankfully)I discovered the Mogami catalog, MOUSER ELECRONICS and a good soldering iron and have been happy (well, happier) ever since
My system(s) sound more Musical as well (not just to me but the folks around me)
The motives of the boutique wire biz is well documented and 99.9% of their marketing claims is little more than B.S. from a demonstrable point of view (objective/measurable)
And upon close examination one will soon learn that very few, if any of these purveyors even draw their own wire. Underneath all those fancy jackets you will often find the same well recognized conductors (brands/manufacturers) you will find at a good building supply house
And yes, I recognize the fact that a few of them have the conductors drawn to their custom "specs" by big makers like Belden but as much so to legally be able to claim exclusivity and hold design patents as to anything else
But hey, whatever blows your skirt up
Analogman
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Two mint, low serial numbers, Stephens Tru-Sonic 206-AXAs in original Stephens modified reflex boxes - $20
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I found a Goodwill a SCORE $12.00
A Marantz 2235B
Very nice receiver as well as your new speakers. I have owned the same system (almost), 1971 vertical Cornwalls mated to a Marantz 2220B for a while as well as tubes. Sublime. If you need or want help with your networks I will re-cap them for you, free of charge (you pay for the caps).
I did my Cornwalls with 1% Daytons and Audiocap Theta film/foil .01uF for a by-pass; the results were excellent. Minimal costs.
Don't know where you are; you do not provide a location. I am in California near San Francisco.
Analogman
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Boys, you got that right....Actually, I have made great progress on this, even though I don't currently have a permanent TT installed. I have met some local gentlemen that have a great music shop/performance venue/repair and restoration business. I have spent quite a bit of time in the last few days with them, and have gotten some great advice regarding new, used, restored TT's. They are also interested in some of the equipment I have, so I think we are going to come to a very nice mutual agreement in the near future....Will keep you posted.
I wish you had checked DCR from your PHONO plugs to the head shell wires before you returned your table. I think it is/was a very decent table overall but I am a little skeptical when it comes to extraneous features and switches that can be in the way of a pure signal path. Too many chips! Would have helped determine/eliminate any capacitance or attenuation problems due to excessive resistance.
You have very good equipment for vinyl play back, especially your Pioneer. Did you try your table with that PHONO stage? If it sounded poorly on that receiver, assuming it is in good shape, then I might have suspected a cartridge/table issue. The PHONO stage on the SX-1250 is discrete and excellent and designed with a wide variety of MM cartridges in mind.
I would think your Pioneer to be an excellent reference from which to work; judging and assessing other stages. Pretty good pre-amp as well.
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The more I read in this thread, the happier I am that I even started it....once again, thanks for all of the opinions, advice and general foolin' around....Earl.
Hello,
You resolve your problem?
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----------------On 1/31/2005 12:28:37 AM jpm wrote:I heard her sing Honeysuckle Rose tonight. It was lovely. Are any of you familiar with her work and if so, is it worth buying?----------------
Yeah, I'm "familiar" with Jane Monheit
Got her on some crappy sounding CeeDees too, music's good though
Start with the first, "Come Dream With Me"
Couldn't find 'em on vinyl
As always,
Analogman
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----------------On 1/30/2005 9:49:45 PM AndyKubicki wrote:I've given this example before, but it also illustrates the importance of the quality or lack of it in mastering. I have thought for years that my Yes LP Fragile was a bad pressing. It just plain distorted! I was dumbfounded when I bought the CD version to hear the same distortion! It was in the mix! Now that the DVDa version came out in a REMIXED version, it is phenominal! All of what I perceived to be mistracking is gone! And the LF content on Wakeman's keyboards is great! I am to this day surprized at how the original recording ever made it to press!BTW, I don't have a DVDa player, so I must be listening to a stereo mix layer, so it's really the remixing that improved it.----------------
THANK GOD FOR YOU, ANDY!!! You are a blessing. YOU seem to know how "records" are made!
Analogman
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On 1/30/2005 10:13:59 PM garymd wrote:
Andy,
I bought the redbook remix of Frigile and it's fantastic too. I never understood how the original LP was ever released like that either! Same with Who's Next and Van Morrison's, Moondance. All great albums, lousy original recordings.
You can not "mix" or "remix" a lousy RECORDING and make it "GOOD".
That's not how the chain of ELECTROMECHANICAL events works.
An "over the counter" LP or a CeeDee or WHATEVER is not a RECORDING they are a REPRESENTATION of a RECORDING.
As always,
Analogman
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----------------On 1/30/2005 9:21:59 PM yaffstone wrote:I may act as an alien at times but I won't alienate!I was really surprised that the old records sound so good. I will continue to listen to CDs too even though they jitter at times just as records can pop. There does seem to be a smoothness to the vinyl though.If it's music, it's fun. Listen on...----------------
Thank You for your sense of HUMOUR! It is like a breath of FRESH AIR!
Enjoy the Music!
Analogman
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----------------On 1/30/2005 8:58:08 PM Audio Flynn wrote:CeeDee=Aural PornographyCrap=CrapYours truly,Analogman++++++++++++++++Old rap from a single minded contributor.Many of us including all the Klipsch engineers I have spoken to find a place for CD in their musical enjoyment.A Man;Trying to alienate newbies?----------------
NO, not at all
Once again, READ his original post. Yaffstone INVITED "opinions". Also take a look at my post just above. Are you trying to get something started? I think the original poster is capable of deciding for himself.
By the way, CONGRATULATIONS YAFFSTONE for your rediscovered Turn Table and all the joy it will surely bring!
Regards,
Analogman
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First: Unplug it, plug it back in, try it, if it works STOP
If not:
Take off the "cover" usually only a few screws, GENTLY clean the "lense" of the pick up with a SOFT brush and compressed air, If you feel confident in your ability to be GENTLE a cotton swab DAMPENED with alcohol is good too, especially if there are smokers in the house.
DON'T USE those disc type "cleaners" with the brushes on them, they'll either BEAT THE HELL out of the laser, or never apply enough friction to do any good.
If this doesn't do it, replace it.
Have fun,
Analogman
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Ah well...
$800.00 for a NEW pair sounds good.
Analogman
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If you're able to pick them up, you can buy TWO pair from me for $800.00. I would want you to see them first anyway. I live near San Francisco.
Analogman
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This may be helpful, if you are so inclined:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/LPsvsCDsDynamics.php
Analogman
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----------------On 1/30/2005 5:11:36 PM yaffstone wrote:I just got my B&O beogram 1700 hooked back up after about 10 years on a side shelf. My records sound amazing and now I'm wondering other than convenience, why I switched to CD. There's even something fun about the 15 minute ritual. What are your thoughts about audio quality of CD versus vinyl?----------------
You should take a look at the thread "2/3 of my CDs sound like crap" here in 2-Channel.
Regards,
Analogman
MIT cables and Klipsch La Scala?
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Obvious on face value (your post)
But that was not the original topic
Analogman