ka7niq

I will always remember that RCA Horn Picture Bliss53. I tried to duplicate it with a chihuahua sticking his head into an old Western Electric Trumpet Horn I sold to Jim Hunter of Klipsch for his Horn Museum. The trick is to stiff the horn with treats, the dog ain't looking for his masters voice, it is looking for food!

Me 2

Some interesting Capacitor Reading ? Fixed capacitor comparisons Capacitor type Dielectric used Advantages/applications Disadvantages Paper Capacitors Paper or oil-impregnated paper Extensively used for high voltage and high discharge current applications. Large size. Paper being highly hygroscopic, it absorbs moisture from atmosphere despite plastic enclosures and impregnants thus increasing its power factor and decreasing its insulation resistance. Metalized Paper Capacitors Paper Comparatively smaller in size and higher voltage rating Suitable only for low current applications. Polyester (MYLAR) Capacitor Polyester film Smaller in size as compared to paper capacitors of comparable specifications. These have almost completely replaced paper capacitors for most DC electronic applications with operating voltages up to 1600VDC and operating temperatures up to 125ºC. Moisture pick-up is lesser. Temperature stability is poorer as compared to that of paper capacitors. Polystyrene Capacitor Polystyrene Best general purpose plastic film capacitor. Excellent stability, low moisture pick-up and a slightly negative temperature coefficient that can be used to match the positive temperature co-efficient of other components. Maximum operating temperature is only about +85ºC. Comparatively bigger in size. Polycarbonate Plastic Film Capacitor Polycarbonate The insulation resistance, the dissipation factor and dielectric absorption are superior to polystyrene capacitors. Moisture pick-up is less and these have almost zero temperature co-efficient. - Polypropelene Plastic Film Capacitors Polypropylene Extremely low dissipation factor, very high dielectric strength, low moisture pick-up and high insulation resistance. <center>- Polysulphone Plastic Film Capacitors Polysulfone These can withstand voltage at comparatively higher temperatures. Moisture pick-up is typically 0.2% and it limits its stability. <center>- PTFE Fluorocarbon (TEFLON) Plastic Film Capacitors Polytetrafluoroethylene Operating temperatures of up to 170ºC, extremely high insulation resistance and good stability. Large size and high cost. Polyamide Plastic Film Capacitors Polyamide Operating temperatures of up to 200ºC. High insulation resistance, good stability and a low dissipation factor. Large size and high cost. Metalized Plastic Film Capacitors Polyester or Polycarbonate Reliable and significantly smaller in size. Limited current carrying capability like the metalized paper capacitors. Stacked Plate Mica Capacitors Mica Advantages of mica capacitors arise from the fact that the dielectric material (mica) is inert. It does not change physically or chemically with age and it has good temperature stability. Unless properly sealed in a case, mica capacitors are susceptible to moisture pick-up which will increase the power factor and the insulation resistance. Metalized Mica or Silver Mica Capacitors Mica Have the above mentioned advantages. In addition, they have much reduced moisture infiltration. <center>- Glass Capacitors Glass Similar to Mica Capacitors. Stability and frequency characteristics are better than mica capacitors. High cost. Class-I Temperature Compensating Type Ceramic Capacitors Mixture of complex Titanate compounds Low cost and small size, excellent high frequency characteristics and good reliability. Predictable linear capacitance change with operating temperature. Capacitance changes with change in applied voltage, with frequency and with aging effects. Class-II High dielectric strength Type Ceramic Capacitors Barium titanate based dielectrics Smaller than Class-I type due to higher dielectric strength of ceramics used. Not as stable as Class-I type. Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitors Aluminium oxide Very large capacitance to volume ratio, inexpensive. Dielectric leakage is high, large internal inductances limit the high frequency performance, poor low temperature stability and loose tolerances. These have been found to burst open when overloaded. Tantalum Electrolytic Capacitors Tantalum oxides Large capacitance to volume ratio, smaller size, good stability, wide operating temperature range, long reliable operating life. Extensively used in miniaturised equipment and computers. Available in both polarised and unpolarised varieties. Solid tantalums have much better characteristics than their wet counterparts. <center>- Alternating current oil-filled Capacitors Oil-impregnated paper Primarily designed to provide very large capacitance for industrial AC applications to withstand large currents and high peak voltages at power line frequencies. The applications include AC motor starting and running, phase splitting, power factor correction, voltage regulation, control equipment, etc.. <center>- Direct current oil-filled capacitors Paper or Paper-polyester film combination Primarily designed for DC applications such as Filtering, Bypassing, Coupling, Arc suppression, voltage doubling, etc.. Operating voltage rating must be derated as per the curve supplied by the manufacturer if the DC contains ripple. Energy Storage Capacitors Kraft capacitor paper impregnated with electrical grade castor oil Designed specifically for intermittent duty discharge applications. These are charged normally in milliseconds and made to discharge through a resistive or other critically damped load in a time period ranging from a few nanoseconds to a few hours. Typical applications include Biomedical equipment, high intensity flash tubes, masers, lasers and welders. <center>- edit Non-idealities of practical capacitors [edit] Q factor, dissipation and tan-delta Capacitors have "Q" (quality) factor (and the inverse, dissipation factor or tan-delta) which relates capacitance at a certain frequency to the dielectric loss. The higher this figure, the more lossy the capacitor. Tan-delta is the tangent of the phase angle between voltage and current in the capacitor. This angle is sometimes called the loss angle. It is related to the power factor which is zero for an ideal capacitor. [edit] Equivalent series resistance (ESR) This is an effective resistance that is used to describe the resistive parts of the impedance of certain electronic components. The theoretical treatment of devices such as capacitors and inductors tends to assume they are ideal or "perfect" devices, contributing only capacitance or inductance to the circuit. However, all physical devices are constructed of materials with finite electrical resistance, which means that all real-world components contain some resistance in addition to their other properties. A typical ESR for a low esr capacitor is 0.01 Ω Low values are preferred for high-current, pulse applications. Since capacitors have such low ESRs, they have the capacity to deliver huge currents into short circuits, which can be dangerous. For capacitors, ESR takes into account the internal lead and plate resistances and other factors. An easy way to deal with these inherent resistances in circuit analysis is to express each real capacitor as a combination of an ideal component and a small resistor in series, the resistor having a value equal to the resistance of the physical device. [edit] Equivalent series inductance (ESL) ESL in signal capacitors is mainly caused by the leads used to connect the plates to the outside world and the series interconnects used to join sets of plates together internally. For any real-world capacitor, there is a frequency above DC at which it ceases to behave as a pure capacitance. This is called the (first) resonant frequency. This is critically important with decoupling high-speed logic circuits from the power supply. The decoupling capacitor supplies transient current to the chip. Without decouplers, the IC demands current faster than the connection to the power supply can supply it, as parts of the circuit rapidly switch on and off. Large capacitors tend to have much higher ESL than small ones. As a result, electronics will frequently use multiple bypass capacitors — a small 0.1 µF rated for high frequencies and a large electrolytic rated for lower frequencies, and occasionally, an intermediate value capacitor. [edit] Voltage Important properties of capacitors are the maximum working voltage (potential, measured in volts) and the amount of energy lost in the dielectric. For high-power or high-speed capacitors, the maximum ripple current are further considerations. [edit] Temperature dependence Another major non-ideality is temperature coefficient (change in capacitance with temperature) which is usually quoted in parts per million (ppm) per degree Celsius. [edit] Aging When refurbishing old (especially audio) equipment, it is a good idea to replace all of the electrolyte-based caps. After long storage electrolytic capacitors may deteriorate; before powering up equipment with old electrolytics, it may be useful to apply low voltage to allow the capacitors to reform before applying full voltage. Non polarised capacitors also suffer from aging, changing their values slightly over long periods of time. [edit] Soakage In the construction of long-time-constant integrators, it is important that the capacitor does not retain a residual charge when shorted. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it creates a memory effect in the capacitor. This is a non-linear phenomenon, and is important when building very low distortion filters. [edit] Non-linearity Capacitors may also change capacitance with applied voltage. This effect is more prevalent in high 'k' and some high voltage capacitors. This can be another small source of non-linearity when building low distortion filters. [edit] Leakage Capacitors also have some level of parasitic resistance across the terminals which is called 'leakage'. This fundamentally limits how long capacitors can store charge. Historically, this was a major source of problems in some types of applications (long RC timers, sample-and-holds, etc.) edit See also

Noproblem, and NICE Fish! I live in tampa. Ka7niq is a ham radio callsign, been one over 25 years. Know what u mean about getting zapped !

AWW shucks Dean, whats sa matta for you ? Audiophiles talkimg about (GASP) buying caps and crossover parts from someone else, besides your omnipotence ? perhaps you haven't realized it yet,but every thread aint gonna go "your way" my friend. Last time I looked this was a place to share our ideas about audio ? Lighten up,open your mind, a mind, like a parachute, works best when open .........

Wow, Humber going OUT of business ? I have used ESRS coils, not as good as what you are using, but a lot of bang for buck! Well, I recapped my Electro Voice Last nite SET 12, and the results are horrible! I used the same type of caps, well, I THINK I did ? The three 30 uf caps are absolutely huge, the old ones,they are black caps with like a pink ends and say NP 1`068 - 7402 then 42529 30uf - 70 v NP ? I have never seen caps like these, but say NP on them ?My;ars are automatic non polar, and polyps were not out in 1976 ?? Wonder IF they are a paper in oil ? The mylar mid range cap, also a HUGE yellow cap is an AM Rad 17.7 I replaced the 30 uf caps with 30 uf ERSE NP Electros, their very best 3 % DF caps,and used an ERSE 18 uf Mylar to replace the 17.7 uf stock mylar cap. The stock Mylar DWARFS the ERSE Mylar replacement. The ST 350 tweeter had a small black 2uf mylar on it, I replaced with ERSE 2 uf mylar www.erseaudio.com Result, so FAR ? IT SUCKS, the big midrange horn is way hotter now, the speakers have lost their magic! The new ERSE Mylar really turned on the ST 350 tweeters, they are fine, it is the midrange I am not pleased with! The Sentry III have a removable back top section with x over mounted on it, easy as *** to roll caps! There are 3 - 30UF caps, wonder IF one of them is midrange related ? here is what I think, I WISH I could measure these old caps for ESR, etc,etc .. What may be happening is the high ESR may be compensation for decreased alnico magnet woofer loss of magnetism ? IOW, the new caps, working correctly, may be making speakers midrange because woofer not as efficient as one was ?

I just woke up SET 12, up late listening to re capped E/V Sentry III's (They sound like chit at the moment) I need some coffee in me, I will come back later, when I wake up Chris

The North Creek Crossovers for 801's are VERY expensive! I own 801's a long time, have met many fellow 801 owners over the years, only know ONE 801 owner who went to North Creek Crossovers, he tell me he liked results in some ways, others not so well. But I think it is safe to say there are 1000 times more Klipsch owners who gut their speakers, and go to heroic lengths to make some of the speakers sound right. B&W Matrix 801 owners mostly tallk about stands, components, cables, etc, etc, or just enjoy music. I had original Forte's, very impressive speaker, for the money, my favorite ober ALL the many Klipsch Speakers I own over years of audio addiction. Klipsch CF 4 version 1 was fun too.

So what are the original type caps used in the Khorn crossover? A question came up here a while back regarding the hermetically sealed bathtub caps in my old original Type A crossovers and this is what I found out: "I just got off of the phone with Tom of Plastic Capacitors, Inc. who ID'ed his product as a Mylar film and foil oil filled cap. He said that as long as there was no leakage they should be fine, and considering the operating temperature and voltages present in a loudspeaker crossover, that they should last forever. I have not done any electrical testing of these caps, but listening tests seem to confirm proper operation." As far as "brightness and shrillness" go, these speakers with my old crossovers could not be described that way. Those attributes are likely due to the recording process in any event. If this recording sounded normal on another loudspeaker, maybe that speaker was dull and lifeless to begin with. Good Post ! Though a capacitor Maker says they should last forever, there are some who will tell you different, because they have measured very high ESR because the caps are old. But, what IF the original cap WAS a high ESR cap to begin with ???

So what are the original type caps used in the Khorn crossover? A question came up here a while back regarding the hermetically sealed bathtub caps in my old original Type A crossovers and this is what I found out: "I just got off of the phone with Tom of Plastic Capacitors, Inc. who ID'ed his product as a Mylar film and foil oil filled cap. He said that as long as there was no leakage they should be fine, and considering the operating temperature and voltages present in a loudspeaker crossover, that they should last forever. I have not done any electrical testing of these caps, but listening tests seem to confirm proper operation." As far as "brightness and shrillness" go, these speakers with my old crossovers could not be described that way. Those attributes are likely due to the recording process in any event. If this recording sounded normal on another loudspeaker, maybe that speaker was dull and lifeless to begin with. Good Post ! Though a capacitor Maker says they should last forever, there are some who will tell you different, because they have measured very high ESR because the caps are old. But, what IF the original cap WAS a high ESR cap to begin with ???

LOL, DB Keele used them back in the 80's when he was a reviewer in Audio Magazine to compare ALL other speakers he reviewed against. IF you do not know who DB Keele is, I humbly suggest you find out ? Once you find out WHO he is, and realize he is NOT using Horns as a reference speaker, you MIGHT get a clue ? Stereophile re reviewed a pair John Atkinson's wife still owns, Result ? The B&W Matrix 801 REMAINS a world class speaker, easily able to hold it's own with anything under 20 grand today !! That John Atkinson kept them all these years ( the my wife owned them) is all BS, designed not to Pizz off other manufactures), is a testament to their ability to sound like music. Now, there ARE good horn speakers, to be sure. I really liked the Klipsch Original Forte's !!! Unfortunately, I RUINED them by foolishly listening to the accepted use poly caps"wisdom" on some Forums. I did not re cap them again with stock type caps because they had no future in my room. They were way too small on a 20 foot wide wall with a 73 inch Mitsubishi DLP HDTV in the middle, and dual 9,5 cu ft subs in the corners. Plus, they were golden oak, NOT a match. I have owned 5 pairs of corner horns, 3 Khorns, 1 ea speaker lab k/s and speaker Factory khorn clones. I have owned LaScala's, I call them La Screecha's, 2 pairs of Pretty Belles Klipsch, Corn 1's and 2's and CF 3 and CF 4's version 1 and Version 2's. I have used gain clones, Tripath, SET, Push Pull, Pass 40'sKills,Audire, Luxman M 117, Moscode 600's, every amp pre amp combo I have owned, over the years. I am one person responsible for collecting western electric field coil drivers, and horns, amps, crossovers, and selling to the ****. I heard a full blown western system in Vancouver BC, it literally was a life changing experience, I used to think our Japanese friends we stupid to pay me big bucks for all the western stuff I sold them ..... Not anymore, LOL

We can get accustomed to a type of sound, especially when we have nothing to compare it to. Anytime you have a folded horn woofer playing UP into the mid range in a folded horn, you are gonna get coloration and phase shifts, caused by the folded horn. The Europeans use Horns that can play down LOW, or direct drivers in ported boxes to minimise this.

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK [] I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute.You don't see people gutting B&W 801's, they are a great speaker, as is. People GUT some Klipsch speakers, and go to heroic lengths, to TRY and make their speakers sound right.You know, if it aint broke, don't fix it ? It is my experience that the Klipsch speakers I have re capped were already bright enough, and the LAST thing they needed was a low ESR Cap to make em even more bright.

LOL, you can roll all you want with Belles, and ya still got Belles, a beautiful piece of furnitre, and little else. If you can't hear the folded horn colorations,and the woofer playing well up into the midrange, with lower midrange fundamentals ping ponging off the un damped wood walls, dude, what CAN you hear ? I have owned 2 sets of Belles, I hated them, wife loved em, cause they were pretty. I just could not live with that folded horn coloration. You are used to it evidentally, just never come to Florida and hear Matix 801's ? once you have heard a TRUE low coloration speaker, where violins dont screech at you, and voices sound real, there is no going back. I just picked up some Electrovoice Sentry III's that will destroy any klipsch speaker I have EVER heard. My advice ? Sell your pretty furniture, and FIND a pair, or some Altec Model 19's maybe ? The EV Sentry III's will go to 28 hz with the E/V equalizer, their midrange horn is a fiber composite,and they have the E/V 350 tweeter that goes way out. They are not QUITE as uincolored as 801's, but real close, and they will rattle the room with low bass. Audiophile to Audiophile, what I tell you is true, The Altec Model 19,and The lesser known E/V Sentry III's are just in another league, it is true. Sell the Belle's, hey that rhymes, to some Klipschead,and use the Money to buy Altec Model 19's or E/V Sentry III's. That is my honest advice to you, stop torturing yourself ?

I dont cARE ABOUTCURVES, EXCEPT on girls, sorry for caps. John Bowers of B&W was a gifted engineer, his advice belongs to ANY speaker crossover. I have probably re done as many speakers as anyone here, and I know what my ears tell me, as confirmed by Dean G. Low ESR caps are brighter, and change the drivers output. Go re cap with Low ESR Poly Caps, I have some SET amps I will sell you cheap to tame the beast, LOL Paper in oil caps are popular because of high ESR that tamed bright speakers, due to insertion loss, remember, a DIP is better then a PEAK ?

Thanks, like Dean G admitted, a low ESR cap replacing one with higher ESR causes a peak, exactly what you DON'T want, especially in the bright speakers Klipsch makes. I think our Forum Dwelling Capacitor Sellers and fellow audiophiles might want to make high quality Electrolytics and Mylars available to their customers ? Maybe Bob Crites might make a replacement crossover WITHOUT those Sonicaps, and fitted with the OEM Type of capacitors. Just like Decaf Coffee, or regular Coffee, prospective buyers can now have a CHOICE of the correct replacement crossover with OEM Type capacitors, or one with Bright sounding low ESR Caps ? Of course, there is not as much Ca$h Money in selling crossovers with OEM Caps [] It is "common knowledge" that replacing worn out high esr OLD caps with new Poly Caps make a "big difference" LOL But had they replaced the shot out older caps with the same TYPE they would be even more pleased. It is time to put an END to this BS.Been there 25 times, don that, ruined the speakers, until I LEARNED, and simply replaced the Poly Caps with electrolytic and mylar caps Klipsch Intended to be IN there. IF Electrolytic and Mylar are "so bad" then WTF are they doing in Klipsch and other well regarded speakers anyway ? To think you "need" Poly Caps is a mistake, unless you want a "slightly brighter speaker" LOL I sit and laugh at the when guys buy expensive SET amps to "tame" Klipsch speakers, then stupidly put lower ESR caps to make em brighter. This is kind of like digging a ditch, and keep kicking dirt back into the hole, I have even PURPOSLY substituted High ESR Non Polar Electrolytics for Mylars! This trick has mellowed out many a shrill speaker! tHE HIGHER esr AND df fACTOR OF THE ELECTROLYTIC Caps, sorry about the caps, causes a dip and reduction in driver output. JUST the thing for taming a bright speaker, where peaks were ignored, in favor of Efficiency. Perhaps Klipsch will learn a few things fro The ENERGY Engineers, if they were wise enough to keep some ? The Canadiens learned long ago that if you have a choice of a dip of a peak, the dip is FAR less audible!

Also, with respect Dean, I have met John Bowers of B&W, actually ate Pizza with him after hours at Vegas CES. My best friend at that time owned Seattle's best high end store. I had B&W Matrix 801's at that time, and was considering putting a Teflon Capacitor on the Tweeter. John Bowers patiently explained to me that a Teflon Capacitor WAS better, in an absolute sense. He also warned me NOT to change any capacitors in the Matrix 801. He was well aware I am a Ham, and know how to solder, use heat sinks, etc, etc. He told me of the many hours he spent designing his crossover around THAT Capacitor that comes stock in an 801. So, like the audio fool I was, I did it anyway! I used paper in oil, both Russian and american, vintage and NOS both. I tried Sideral Caps (remember those), Swollen, Red Clarity Caps, ERSE Polycaps, Auricaps, Bennic, Mundorf, you name it, I tried it (never Sonicaps), and guess what ? John Bowers of B&W was right! I did not listen again when I re did my Cornwall 2's, they sound like chit, redone with ALL Poly Caps. I just lucked into a pair Of Electro Voice Sentry III's ( I Love them), and I will not make the same mistakes on them, though they have a tweeter pot. Just adjusting the tweeter Level can not compensate for the damage done to the crossover by substituting a Poly cap for the stock Mylar. I went all ERSE caps again for the Electrolytics and Mylars. You are correct, Mylar or Electrolytic low ESR caps DO cause a brighter sound, exactly what a Klipsch speaker DON'T Need, IMHO The vast research done up in Canada by the NRC has clearly shown the a DIP is much better then a PEAK.

May I HUMBLY submit Bob, that when ever you change a capacitor to a different type, you are changing the sound. The best choice for capacitor replacement in any speaker is to replace with a new version ( if available ) of the same cap. if you can't get that, the next best choice is to replace with same TYPE. IOW a Mylar with same, or electrolytic with same. If you are stupid enough to replace with a Poly, the change in ESR and other factors will change the Q of the crossover filter, and seldom for the better [:'(] Like it or not, sometimes circuits are designed around what you call "Bad Capacitors". Put a real good cap in a circuit designed around a "bad capacitor", and guess what ? You suddenly have a bastard circuit the designer never intended.

Threw the Cornwall 2's in place of the 801's, did some more listening in 2ch w/o subwoofers turned on. Sounded good, about as good as I have ever heard the Cornwall 2's sound, overall. Sound had a "precision" about it, a sort of "purity". No glare, no overly warm sound like a Tube Amp, just a neutral sound with just a hint of warmth/purity. Imaging was good ( for the Cornwall 2's), and sound was big and powerful. I activated my subwoofers, and listened again.This receiver allows you to adjust both bass and treble ( I don't use them) and subwoofer level remotely! I could dial in just the right amount of bass for each track, a neat feature. A small on screen display activates to tell you the settings for balance, tone controls, volume, and sub level. You can turn it off too, but I like it, it is not annoying, just small one line of writing, telling you what the control you just engaged is doing. The Remote leaves much to be desired for an old guy like me! The bottons are small, but in time I will remember them. Volume control is near top of remote, not real good for my carpal tunnel syndrome ? That was stupid to put it way up there, IMHO. It also has a music enhancer, WTF that is ? I turned it on, just for kicks, and it did make some songs better (too much of a purist to leave it on). I need to find out what it is, and how it works ? Found out you have to enable it for deep color HDMI support, if your TV has it ? By defalt, it is not enabled. Coming from a large Yamaha RX V1, this is a bit smaller/lighter, but not much. It weighs 39 pounds. It was easy to reduce gain to the Cornwalls 2's, so my subs could keep up with them. Big efficinecy difference there. On screen display is real pretty too, very impressive, easy to use. Carpal Tunnel is acting up, will write more later.

Just back from an hours listening session on the 801's and the Onkyo. I listened to about 15 songs on several different CD's I am familiar with. It still sounds great. I think Onkyo may be onto something with this WRAT Amplifier stuff ? It is probably a copy of some other amp design ? The you know who's are famous for that, but who cares ? It seems to work, at least on my speakers. This is some stuff I found on how the WRAT Amplifier works. Nothing new really, at least in some high end amplifiers. It is a wide bandwidth, low negative feedback design, with high current capability. They paid attention to the ground path of the amplifiers, and selected components that would not compromise the amplifiers bandwidth. Whatever ... it sure sounds nice, especially for the money. Here is their propaganda about it. WRAT2 Benefit 1: Uncommonly Low Negative-Feedback Design—so you’ll enjoy cleaner sound on programme peaks Although NFB (negative feedback) is the most cost-effective way to reduce noise at lower frequencies, there’s a sonic price to pay: larger amounts of NFB severely inhibit an amplifier’s transient response—the ability to respond to large signal gains (e.g. explosions and musical finales)—and actually distort sound at high frequencies. That’s why our engineers use a low negative-feedback design, with audiophile-grade, close-tolerance components at critical points in the signal path, to achieve a frequency response out to 100 kHz. That means you can fully enjoy the sonic benefits from such high-resolution formats as DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD as well as your regular CDs and DVDs. Benefit 2: Closed Ground-Loop Circuits—so you’ll enjoy greater maximum volume without distortion If an amplifier’s ground potential (voltage) fluctuates during playback of movie soundtracks or musical performances, you wind up with unpleasant noise. In an open-loop circuit design, all circuits are connected to the power supply via one loop. If all circuits share the same loop (like on many amplifiers), the noise multiplies exponentially. Onkyo’s sophisticated closed-circuit design allows each circuit to go and return directly to the power supply. This cancels any individual circuit noise, and keeps the ground potential free of distortion. Benefit 3: High Instantaneous-Current Capability—so you’ll enjoy film soundtracks with greater impact Audio signals are very complex. After the amplifier outputs such signals to a speaker, the speaker itself accumulates energy. When the speaker reflexes, it sends energy back to the amplifier. The amplifier must immediately be able to supply a large amount of high current to cancel the speaker’s reflex energy, and instantaneously send out the next signal. The same high current is also necessary to handle speaker impedance fluctuations, which on occasion force an amplifier to provide four to six times its usual current load. The instantaneous current capability of even Onkyo’s least expensive WRAT receivers is far better than that of most conventional units. This is because competing designs commonly have less than half the current capability. The result? The high-current capability incorporated into all Onkyo receivers means your receiver can deliver movie soundtracks with theatre-like dynamics and clarity—so you’ll get the same exciting sonic slam that you experienced in the cinema.

LOL, that was an unintentional TYPO, but I just watched Hellraiser 3 on the Onkyo. Plenty of Demons in that movie, That Pinhead guy is a real piece of work, pure evil.

Of course, I looked at the Demons, but the Denon's with Audyssey DSX Surround Technology were all very expensive. I had the good fortune to hear an Audyssey DSX System, properly set up. I did not want to be w/o it. Yes, the HT RC 180 is the "sleeper" in the Onkyo line, it is really an Onkyo 807 with one less HDMI out. It is "rated" 20 wpc less, but it's peak power into 3 ohms is the very same, as is it"s weight. Someone is Lying, LOL It carries a THX Select rating, whoopty ding. I am more concerned about sound quality, and the Onkyo WRAT Amp delivers what it promises. Don't throw away the Krells and Levinson's, but it is a good sounding component, especially for what it can be had for ? BTW, the Audyssey DSX surround system really expands the stereo image, now IF you could hide the speakers in the walls, behind an acoustically transparent picture, you can literally blow even the most Jaded audio snobs mind, when it comes to soundstage expansion [:'(] When adjusted and set up correctly, there are no phony reverb sounds like in the Yamaha DSP system. The first time I heard it, I said "WTF" is going on here. The brains behind Odyssey DSX is Tom Holman, the man who made the APT 1 preamp and amp, and the TH in THX. One bright engineer Tom is. Maybe if Best Buy or some local retailer carries Onkyo, take one home, and listen to this new technology ? You have 30 days to try it usually, and if you dont like it, or they refuse to match Internet pricing, give it back, and buy accordingly ? It is a fairly sizeable receiver too, looks impressive for what it costs. No, it does not weight 60 lbs like my Yamaha RX V1 did, but it did not cost almost 3 grand either. I feel it is one of the best bang for the buck receivers currently out there, and stupid good, for what you can buy it for.FM Tuner aint great, but it is Sirius ready, if you are into that. My kid just noticed it has an optional I Pod dock, no WAY I am gonna buy that! He has Rap Music from hell on his Ipod, and will be blasting the Cornwall 2's every chance he gets! Every time I read the owners manual, I find out something else it has. I mainly bought it, intending to use it as a pre amp/surround processor only with Audyssey DSX. No way was it gonna drive 801's, but it surprised me. One day, I may still run some of my amps off it to power the 801's, but I feel no pressing need. At this moment, I am just enjoying my purchase, and keep shaking my head in wonder how Onkyo can give so much performance, for so little money.

I have not figured out how to control the amps levels YET in a biamp configuration. But if you have a 2 way speaker, like the Klipsch CF 4's I used to own, you can simply reduce the gain a bit to the tweeter amp, giving a warmer sound Or, on really well recorded stuff bass heavy stuff like Boz Skaggs , increase it for more detail. Try it, see what you think ?

I forgot to add the remote adds volume, in a hurry. The Yamaha RX V1 drove me nuts, because it took forever for the volume control to increase, almost like it was "afraid" to be played loud, The Onkyo can't wait, it gets loud in a hurry, almost like it is begging you to push it. I just listened to it's tuner for the first time (The 801's are still biamped) and it was shockingly 3 dimensional, with images outside the plane of the 801's. Voices projected foreward, and depth was good. I do hear a bit of "tizz" on the tuner that was not there on a seperate Yamaha TX 950 Tuner, in case anyone listens to FM as a primary source ? The "Tizz" bothers me, and if FM is your primary souce of music, either don't buy this, or simpy get a seperate tuner ? Remember, I am listening on B&W 801's that are very revealing, it may not be as apparent on your speakers ? Be warned!, FM is almost an "afetrthought" on many receivers of today, and this is Sirius Ready. FM is not a dealbreaker for me, and this "Tizz" is definately Tuner Related, for it is not there at all on CD's or DVD's. I will write more as I learn more about this new addition to the house.

Man, I was screwing around, and biamped the B&W 801's with the HT RC 180. Have to give up 2 surround channels, but oh does it sound nice! In the bi amped configuration, it lacks nothing except the warmth of tubes. Imaging and detail are increased, with an effortless ease to the sound. Watched a movie in Dolby Pro Logic IIx, and the added height dimension is very well done, really expands the soundstage. Never had a HDMI anything before my new 73 in Mitsubishi DLP, but it makes everything so easy. I get on screen display now, w/o having to switch TV display inputs.. MY CD player is not HDMI, soI go out with optical to the Onkyo's DAC. I hooked it up analog too, so I can compare. No comparison, the Onkyo's newer Burr Brown Dacs are better, smoother, more relaxed sounding, image is bigger too. I am still in awe every time I read the owners manual, and find all the stuff this thing will do. Like computers, these receivers keep getting better. It even has detachable power cord, so you can play with different types of power cords! I have an aftermarket power cord on it from a company that is not in business anymore. My girlfriend loves it, because it is easy to operate with the HDMI, she just puts it on DVD, and she is ready to watch movie w/o bothering me.