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Marshall and both are in Florida. I wonder if his 605 has the WRAT Amplifier too ? I had an Onkyo receiver about 10 years ago that sounded just dreadful, harsh tinny highs, no imaging, listener fatigue set in quickly.The WRAT amplifier in the newer Onklyo's is different, from what I hear. I am loving the Audyssey dynamic EQ and DSX Surround, and the HDMI makes connection a breeze. When I unhooked the Yamaha RX V1 I just sold, forgot to mark the speaker wires of all the surrounds, LOL That was fun, sorting them all out.

I broke down and bought one of these new Onkyo receivers, and it is truly amazing. It is basically the same as the more expensive 807 Model, with one less HDMI Out, and 20 wpc "less" rated, LOL It weighs exactly the same. It's peak output into 3 ohms is exactly the same, get the picture ? It has the Audyssey DSX surround scheme from Tom Holman, as well as every thing you could want in a receiver, including excellent 2 ch sound. In fact, you can even use it to biamp your speakers. The new Onkyo WRAT amplifier is sweet sounding, and casts a nice soundstage in 2 ch. It drives my B&W Matrix 801's with ease, and sounds great. It has HDMI, that my older Yamaha RX V1 did not, and incredible bass management for the subwoofers. God, what is not to like ? It is dead quiet with my Cornwall 2's, w/o any harshness. Onkyo WRAT amp goes out to 100k with very low negative feedback, and plenty of power. It runs fairly hot, so I would expect it to have high bias, making it's first few watts clean. No, it is not quite as good as my very best separates, but it is so close that when you take into account it is a one box solution the whole family can enjoy with awesome home theater surround effects, it makes a strong case for itself. My recent experiences with the nice receivers available today have convinced me the performance gap is closing between separated and receivers. It is not a "tone control" like many older vintage tube and solid state pieces now are, with bad caps/components that roll off, or soften the sound. But if you have speakers that are properly designed in a room friendly to them, that is not needed or wanted anyway. B&W Matrix 801's are not the easiest load to drive, and will quickly expose bad sounding amps/receivers, etc, etc. If a component can drive them, and not harsh you out, or shut their imaging down, it is a good component. Only on my Son's Rap Music at really loud levels did I detect the Onkyo running out of steam, in a very large room. For 90 percent of music, I did not find myself missing my separates very much. No, the very last degree of imaging, punch, and sound quality is not there, compared to my tube DAC and tube preamp with big dual solid state monster amps driving the 801's in a passive bi amp configuration. But the 801' s still sound very musical with just the Onkyo HT RC 180 powering them. IMHO, this Onkyo is a fine example of a well designed and implemented product you can afford. If you are not looking for the very last little bit of 2 ch performance, at ten times the cost, and want a mind blowing home theatre and stereo experience with Audyssey DSX, this may be right for you. Currently, this receiver is the lowest cost component incorporating Audyssey DSX surround technology. I was honestly prepared to use this only as a Preamp, and use a separate amp for the 801's, This Onkyo surprised me in its ability to drive the 801's, and sound quite good doing it too.

i I am much more an Audiophile then a videophile.'I always want the shortest signal path possible, and have lived with a Yamaha RX V1 for years w/o any HDMI. Can you give me an example of how my new HDMI equipped receiver will be more convienient ? One thing I hate is on my TV that is HDMI equipped, I have to switch the inputs to see the on screen display,, a real PITA! And constantly switch the TV inputs to watch DVD! So with all HDMI, just do switching in the reciever, and leave TV alone ? If so, this means I need a good Video receiver, since my Mitsubishi is 73 inches, and I may see degradation ?

For SOME strange reason, I trust CNET too ? They had very good things to say about the sound quality of the Pioneer. However, I do not believe they have ever heard a properly set up Audyssey DSX surround scheme ? I am a jaded audiophile, dont get exceited about much, and had the full blown Yamaha DSP system for years. I had the chance to actually hear the Audyssey DSX recently, with all speakers properly set up, and connected. I know, just for me, That any receiver I buy MUST have the Audyssey DSX. I just sold my Yamaha RX V1 yesterday, and not too many receivers have the Audyssey DSX system,. only Onkyo and Denon, at the moment ..... So, I have an older Yamaha DSP Integrated amp, the DSP A 970, with matching Yamaha TX 850 tuner I have pressed into service, and it sound good, good enough for Super Bowl, LOL. I am patient, and dont buy none of this audio stuff, w/o getting a deal. I might have to wait a year for Audyssey DSX equipped receivers to come dowwn in price. A Perfect scenario would be the excellent Pioneer review by CNET with Audyssey DSX. Unfortunately, it is not Audyssey DSX equipped, at the moment.

I JUST sold my Yamaha RX V1, got 450.00 for it. I have decided to wait awhile before I buy anything new.' The stuff Iwant is new, and no deals are to be had, yet! I put my old Yamaha DSP A 870 integrated in the system, and it sounds pretty good. I am set for Stuper Bowl, LOL

Does it sound good on horns is the question ?

OMG, you LUCKY dude! Use fronnt effects speakers, and simply move your rears to the SIDES of the room. An entire soundscape awaits you! IME, Rears only work well if they are FAR behind you, and there really is little rear info anyway, except a pan or two in many movies. The side speakers in the Audyssey DSX system make the walls melt away, and the front effects speakers add depth and height to the soundscape. We watched The Chronicles Of Riddick with Vince Diesel, and the spaceships sounded like htey were coming from outside the room walls! It also works in 2 ch stereo too I am told ? What receiver do you have, Denon or Onkyo, you lucky Dude ?

That makes a good segue into my situation and question: I'm in the process of replacing my old HD setup built around Infinity RS II's with one built around RF-83's, RC-64, and RS-62's. The two pieces I'm currently planning on keeping are the SVS 20-39pc sub and my Sony da333ES receiver. Anybody have any opinions for or against? I MIGHT have the model number wron, but if ya go to the sony forum it is the old Sony they ALL rave about, copper chassis and all with spontaneous twin drive, HUGE Caps/heatsinks, able to dropa BUNCH of current in a hurry! I had one, and stupisly let it get away, it rivaled my Luxman M 117 and Moscode 600 in sound quality, imaged like a mother, on my old Celestion SL 600's! Real 3 dimensional, balls, never ending power. I have had my Old Yamaha RX V1 for years, untilI heard Audyssey DSX, now I MUST have it! I think the other guys on the forum are more UP on the newer receivers ? I WAS happy with the 60 lb Yamaha RX V1, until I heard Audyssey DSX.

Better Hurry, if it is a Marantz you seek http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-Dolby-TrueHD-PLIIz-/-dts-HD-MA-AV-Receiver/1.html IF it had Audyssey DSX Surround, I would buy this, and never look back. I had a full blown Yamaha DSP system, with front effects channels and all. I do not want to give that up. True, Dolby IIz does use front effects speakers, and I have heard it, vs Audyssey DSX. It was simply no contest, to my ears, although Dolby IIz is a great leap foreward for Dolby. Some of you may have little idea who Tomlinson Holman is, but us senior citizens dont.

I too liked the Marantz, but it does not have Audyssey DSX Surround [:@] It does have Dolby IIz, but INHO it is no match for the incredible room expanding propertys of the Audyssey DSX surround system. I have the Mitsu 73 inch that upsamples all inputs anyway. I use the Mitsu with an old CD/DVD Pioneer mega changer into the composite inputs of Mitsu, works fine. I also have a progressive scan single DVD player that upsamples, it is an NEC that ups to 1080, with HDMI, but I prefer to let the Mitsu do the upsampling instead, it just loooks a little better to me. I am so very sold on the Audyssey DSX surround scheme. One I heard it, I was hooked, it uses both front and side speakers to really make walls disappear.

Man, remember the Sony 555 ES ?

Most Denons I have had on horns were thin and bright. I have not had that experience with Klipsch reference series and Denon. I had older Denon 5600 and 3600 .... Perhaps new Denons sound better ? Hey, check out the Harman Kardon DPR 2005's ? These dudes are totally digital all da way to the amps! Not made anymore, no HDMI, but they are truly unique, in their own way.

The Onkyo 807 and the Onkyo HT RC 180 look hard to beat, feature wise. Most Denons I have had on horns were thin and bright. Harman Kardon receivers are low negative feedback designs, capable of great sound,'Look at the Harman Kardon AVR 247 for a STEAL right now. You can get them as low as 180.00 refurbished, if ya loook ?? Pay NO atttention to the wattage ratings, high current is the key, one of these AVR 247's rated at 50 wpc will smoke many lesser receivers rated at 100 wpc. WEIGHT is also something to look for, the AVR 247 weighs 35 lbs, a lot for a mid priced receiver, and it has pre outs on ALL channels, and Logic 7 too.

Yes, it does a lot, bt is Missing one very important to me feature, Audyssey Surround, gotta be careful, Audyssey has 3 technologies, auto eq, dynamic eq, and Audyssey DSX Surround !! A MUST have, for me, read about it, you may want it too on your next receiver ? here is a link http://www.audyssey.com/products now go there and click the DSX box, and it will display all the recievers using Audyssey DSX Surround. Funny, the Denon HT RC 180 has it all, and is not listed ???

Thanks Brother, The big Yamaha RX V1 has got old, by todays standards. I have it for sale at 450.00 asking price, and have had a few bites, just listed it on Tampa Cragslist today. I will pull the trigger at THIS point on an Onkyo 807, or an Onkyo HT RC 180. I liiked some stuff about Sherwood and Marantz, bt No Audyssey Surround, etc, etc. I have some old audio buddies, high end guys like me, who also have theatres, raving about the Audyssey Surround technology, say it stretches the soundfield in height and width. My friends said once youhear it, you will not want to be w/o it. Yes, The Yamaha RX V1 has Yamaha DSP, but is a PITA to get sounding right, if it ever does, on Music. For movies, it is great.

Guess what I got, yep, an ONKYO TX SV 919 THX Ultra certified, the worlds very first THX Ultra receiver.That SOB sounds great, and so does Yamaha RX V1, kinda scared downgrading to mid price 27 lbs receivers I may be dissappointed. Onkyo makes a HT RC 180 that weighs considerably more them most mid priced receivers, and has everything I want. GOT to have pre outs, but even with pre outs, if the preamp suks, it will still sound like chit. I have a JVC RX DP 9, and on my old Von Schweikere VR 4 Jr's, it was amazing, imaged all over, rich, warm, powerful sound. It took my BEST seperates to beat it, and it was as goood as anything on several pairs of Klipschorns, Forte's, and Speaker Lab K's. THAT is one sleeper of a receiver, but it dont have HDMI, audyssey, auto and dynamic EQ, and that is the kind of things I want. Though I have tons of high end stuff, I still get excited looking at, and comparing mid priced recievers, and listening to the opinions and experiences of the cool people on this forum! I really like a receiver with bi amp option, especially if speakers are a tad bright. Just reduce the top amps gain, and presto, warm, rich sound. The Denons I have bowned were like nails on glass, and to be perfectly honest, I have an old top of the regular line Onkyo that was cruel and unusual punishment to listen to! But the Big Onkyo 919 is a really fine sounding reciever, with an excellent tuner.

The Denons Scare me, have had 3 Denon Flagships, every one thin & bright sounding! Looking more at Onkyo RC 180 or Onkyo 807 Gotta have all ch pre outs! I like the Audyssey DSX surround , and Denon aint got, until you spend 1500 up. The Onkyo's have BOTH Dolby 11 z and Audyssey DSX surround. I may have to just be patient, and wait until refurbs become availiable. MY experiences with "refurbs" is they are seldom refurbs at all. It is a way for a manufacturer capture us cheapskates, w/o whoring up their product, LOL Sherwoood has a really really cool auto EQ system, but little else. Unless Denon fights back with a lower price receiver, Onkyo is gonna kick their buttts, IMHO. I just put my Yamaha RX V1 up for sale today, and already have bites on it from Craigslist Tampa. Since I learned about The Audyssey DSX Surround chip, Yamaha is OUT of my considerations. Yamaha has their OWN system, but I feel the Audyssey DSX is superior. Remember, it is Tomlinson Holman behind Audyssey, the TH in THX. I BELIEVE in Tom Holman, and I want to own his latest stuff.

THe Onkyo RC 180 is basically an Onkyo 807, It sure looks like THE best receiiver, by far, for the money. I am still shopping around, might wait until refurbs availiable ? I really like the bi amp feature!!!

Here is the unique Audyssey auto eq in action http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/807hook/ Sherwood has a really cool auto EQ in their Newcastel receivers, but they lack Dolby 2II z and Audyssey Surround capabilitys. The Onkyo 707 looks like THE best value in a mid priced receiver, as of this writing 1 29 2010. The Onkyo RC 180 is basically the same as the Onkyo 807, it has a little more power.

Seems to be a war going on between Dolby II z and Audessey ? Only Yamaha used front effects speakers, at one time, but now several competing technologies are starting to emerge, read all about it here http://www.hemagazine.com/Dolby_Pro_Logic_IIz_vs_Audyssey_DSX I am leaning towareds the Audessey from Tom Holman, the TH in THX. I owned an old APT amp/preamp from him I really enjoyed. The Audessey system stretches the sound stage in width and height, but maybe Dolby II z is allI need, since I mostly use my front effects speakers for movies. I used to play with ADS model 10 digital time delays back in the 80's, and had great stereo results with two wall mounted, side firing delay speakers, it made sounds stage really wide, w/o effecting the musuc, when adjusted right! The Audyessey surround in only abailiable on some higher priced receivers, for now. I think the Onkyo 807 is the lowest priced one to have it ?

Look at this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120146&cm_re=onkyo-_-82-120-146-_-Product It is similar to an Onkyo 607, no pre outs, except subs, do ya really need more then 90 wpc ? It bi amps too

Here is the Denon avr 1910 cheap http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp=53705602&source=EWBBASE&cm_mmc=CSE-_-google-_-ewbbase-_-Electronics&CAWELAID=449300908 They are currently out of stock

I have an older YAMAHA RX V1 Flagship receiver that uses Yamahas Cinema DSP. I like the front effect channels that go above the main speakers, it really deepens the front soundfield. My RX V1 , though once YAMaha's best receiver, lacks some common things found on mid level receivers of today. Things like auto eq, variable bass management, HDMI, etc, etc, etc. There are several new technologies like Audessy, Dolb Pro Logic IIz, and Logic 7 that look really cool. Lets talk aboutthe new technology, particulary the Dynamic EQ from Audessey ? I hear a system with it, and it was ereally nice. I think it is time to say goodbye to my trusty old friend, the Yamaha RX V1. It has served me well, I will miss it's powerful amps, but newer receivers allow for bi amp!!!! I am simply amazed at all that is availiable today, for little money! The little Onkyo 807 looks really tough to beat, but lets all take a look, and see what anyone else thinks, particularly using these amps with Klipsch Heritage Speakers ?

I know PWK was a Christian, and he was very kind to me the one time I met him at Detroit Audio Show at Cobo Hall. But I must say he looks like he could "whup some azz" if need be ? I remember him and his bunch from Klipsch walking around the Audio Show with Bullshit Buttons, and his utter contempt for the audio lies being told back then. He had no fear.

When I spent a day with PWK in 1985 at the Hope factory initially, then at his home after lunch, he played his symphony recordings for me. I asked him about EQ and how he felt about it. He said that without proper insturments people would mess up the sound and that they were better off trying to put Khorns in a room large enough and that had a proper eigenton ratio, which is where they were developed to sound best. I personally like the Audyssey EQ built into my Onkyo receiver. It does a great job and you don't need to know anything to use it. It takes into account room acoustics and uses some very sophisticated math to do it's thing. I have tried the "pure audio" setting to take the EQ in and out and I prefer it IN. So I don't agree with the "purity" idea of reproduced sound, since recorded music goes through so much processing before it's put on CD or DVD anyhow. Audio is just an illusion.........a very good one at that. But all the elements have to come together to make it happen. EQ is just one small part of it, but I think it does a lot of good when done right. It has been almost 8 years since he passed on, so who can say what he would have said about it. He told me he didn't like CD's at all when they first came out and never followed though about whether he changed his mind or not. I'm sure that if he had lived long enough could have MEASURED the positive impact of Audyssey's in-room response corrective power, he would have had to admit that it worked as intended and improved an already good speaker. I would go for EQ. I did and I really think it's the best sound I have ever had, and I had Khorns for 30 years with a La Scala center, just like PWK. What I have now is better and it's EQ'd.............see my avatar I have been looking for a receiver to replace my Yamaha RX V1. Audyssey has their own surround type system, and Dolby has Dolby 2z. Both systems will allow me to use my front effects speakers, so I am no longer "married" to Yamaha. Been looking at the Marantz SR 5400, it has what I want, as does the Onkyo TX SR 707 and Denon AVR 1910. It is hard to believe these 3 receivers pack so many features, for so little money! All have pre outs on all channels, so I can stick the Tascam PE 40 Parametric EQ I have in line, although w/o main In's, I will have to use one of many amps I have lying around here. Back to The Topic about PWK intending for his speakers to be equalized. I once bought a pair of Infinity Entra speakers for my bedroom, got em cheap. I callled Infinity in California with a question,I was transferred by the operator, and Floyd Toole himself picked up the phone !! He told me the little Infinity Entra Bookshelf speakers were Infinity's entry level line. He said they were "compromised" by the inexpensive tweeter they had too use, at that price point. He explained that they had a rise in the prescence region, but quickly added "You can easily correct for this with your tone controls" I said "WHAT tone controls" ? He said "OMG, you are not one of THEM, are you" ? Meaning an audiophile that dont have, or will not use tone controls.He purposly designed the entry level Infinity Entra speakers to be "corrected" with tone controls. So did PWK, as he was faced with speaker enginering and voicing decisions, in the name of Efficiency and Low Distortion, and other loudspeaker design criteria he deemed important perhaps say to himself, or others " Ok, this squaker blends perfectly with this woofer, but has a slight rising response we just cant seem to tame on it;s journey to the tweeter, so since it is perfect in every other way, lets let it go, and let our customers use their treble controls, or some EQ, to flatten it" As a ham radio operator, I like to enter antenna design competitions for a type of antenna called a Yagi. There are 3 electrical parameters for a Yagi, gain, front to back ratio, and bandwidth. If any one is maximized, it is at the expense of the other 2, so compromises are made to get as good overall performance as possible. Today, our computer simulations do all the work, but in the old days, I have spent days on an antenna test range, doing cut and try, until I got my design right. I made compromises, Floyd Toole made compromises, PWK made compromises. And w/o him being alive, we can only speculate what he wanted, EQ - Tone Controls, or not. I bet Jim Hunter of Klisch would know maybe ? I sold Jim some old oddball Western Electric horns back in the 80's for the horn museum, wonder if he would take a phone call from me ? I will use EQ on my Cornwall 2's, and could care less if the "forum accepts" me, or not, for using it. I just want to know, for myself, IF PWK had, or did not have, EQ in the back of his mind for his product. I am no engineer, far from it! I have had to make design decisions on my antenna designs, and I am interested in PWK's design decisions, simply because, I want to know.