Bulkogi
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Posts posted by Bulkogi
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I was wondering if leaving a piece of equipment unused, or seldom used, for extended periods of time might cause certain types of capacitors to dry out or otherwise fall out of spec more quickly than with regular use.
Not surprisingly, the question came up in connection with my Heresy II refurbishing project. As I've posted, my H2s were made in 1989 and I purchased them used in 2001. At the time of my purchase, they sounded great. I had A-B compared them to the KLF 20s I owned at the time, and recall the H2s being a bit livelier in the treble and midrange with the KLF 20s having more extended bass and perhaps a somewhat more balanced top end. I liked both very much, but never had room for both. By 2003, I was married and the H2s were on long term loan to my mom. But my mom never really listened to them unless Eunha and I were over and I was in the mood to play something, and over the years their top end became a bit dull and lifeless. Hence my decision to send the crossover networks to Crites for the rebuild service and the decision to give the titanium diaphragms a whirl. Now they sound fantastic again (both with the original tweeter diaphragms and with the Crites replacements).
Granted, the H2s are now 32 years old, but I hear from people who purchased even older speakers when they were new and have run them ever since without noticing any loss in performance. Of course that could be the proverbial frog in the slowly boiling pot not noticing the real change in temperature, but I do wonder if keeping current running through capacitors more regularly might actually prolong their life span?
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If I am reading these correctly, it would seem that the Heresys have a far flatter impedance curve than other models, and never dip below 8 ohms. Is that right? Are the Heresy IIs comparable?
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1 hour ago, Marvel said:
Absolutely beautiful speakers! My HIIs are a black lacquer, but I still love them. They were a gift from one of my sons. I've had them over 15 years now, and they are all original, I think from around '85. They didn't have labels on the backs. I had just checked the insides and found a dated inspection sticker. I should update the caps some day...
Thanks Marvel! Black lacquer is nice. Mine were sold in raw birch but someone stained them before I bought them used. I just sanded them down lightly and applied a few coats of Danish Oil.
The only reason I had mine recapped is because the upper frequencies had become noticeably duller and less articulate over the years, but yours might be fine. I get the sense that capacitors fall out of spec somewhat randomly, so if yours are still sounding great, you probably don't need a recap. I noticed the improvement as soon as I installed the reworked networks.
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8 hours ago, Pondoro said:
Back to the topic, I love my basically unmodified Heresy 1's. I will admit that I never heard them new. I'd enjoy A/B'ing them with some brand new Heresy speakers but probably will not get the chance. I thought about the various mods and super versions and decided not to go there. I added a sub.
What I'd really like to compare is my unmodded Heresy pair to a new Heresy pair with and without the sub. I wonder where the best money could be spent, upgrade or just buy a sub?
I've tried them with one and two subs, (identical), I was happy with one sub and moved the other sub to the TV room. The next time I see a sale on subs I might add another so I can keep two with the Heresy's. But I am really happy now. Everything else is just curiosity. I understand and respect those of you whose curiosity leads you to do mods.
Edit: Call them what you want. It would be unscrupulous to sell them without revealing any mods
I think it's a personal decision based on your own speakers' performance. In my case, I bought these in 2001 when they were about 12 years old and they sounded great at the time. I had a pair of KLF 20s back then, and the H2s sounded a bit more lively and incisive up top, while the KLFs were a bit more balanced and, of course, stronger in the low end. I've since sold the KLFs, but lately I started to notice that the H2s were sounding dull in the treble. Cymbals, for example, had lost sparkle. Tambourines sounded flat. I'm 55 so I had a far younger friend come over for a listen and he agreed. This time we compared them to my DeVore Super Nines and there was no question the H2s were flat sounding. I think capacitors can fail somewhat randomly.
In hindsight, I could have just recapped the crossover networks, and Crites does a great job at that. That alone transformed them back to what I remember hearing when I first go them 20 years ago. But I figured I'd also try Crites's titanium tweeter diaphragms and I liked them so they are still in, at least for now.I agree with your comments about selling them. If I ever do, I will not only disclose the work, but I'll advertise it. I will also offer the original diaphragms in case the buyer wants to swap them back in.
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24 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:
Just get it a little bit. @chad is on very rarely because of all of the things going on these days at Klipsch Group, Inc., like starting 11 Brands and Premium Audio Company, buying Onkyo, being the distributor in the Americas for Teac, and about a dozen other things. If he can do it I am sure he will be happy to do it.
Travis
Thanks Travis. Wow, that's an amazing work load. This is no big deal, and thanks for your response.
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I'm just following up on this. I sent a message to @Chad but haven't heard back. I don't want to be a pest, and can live with my new moniker, but if it's possible to get my old one back that'd be cool. Again, it was JoshT.
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7 minutes ago, DirtyErnie said:
Dang, I need a bigger house... 😉
This is actually a one bedroom condo! LOL. But we have a large open space, and my wife is the best.
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This is a great read. I really enjoy these types of stories. The Heresys are amazingly flexible speakers. Enjoy!
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Boy does this little speaker reward with high end electronics and subwoofers.
In this system, they are fed by a Simaudio Moon 280D networked DAC streaming TIDAL via Roon, a Rogue Audio RP-5 tube preamp, and a Conrad Johnson MF2250 amplifier (120 wpc solid state), and supported by two REL T7 subwoofers. The turntable is a VPI Scout with a Dynavector 20x2L. For the nonce, they are standing in for the far costlier DeVORE Fidelity Super Nines and providing gobs of chest punching joy and delightful vocals and huge sound! Yes, I'll go back to the Super Nines, but I'm in no real hurry to do so, as much as I love them. These came from a system with an old NAD 740c receiver and Technics CD changer (my mom's), where they sounded quite good. But they sure do reward with more goodness driving them.
Disclaimer: they do have new sonicap capacitors in the crossovers and I'm running them with the Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms (for now) as I described in a post under the Technical/Modifications forum. So, they are modded somewhat.
Have your spoiled your Heresys lately? If so, how have you pampered them?
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2 hours ago, billybob said:
I reckon I'll call them what I want...no if, ands, or buts...
Yep. I told my wife what Roy said, and her joking response was, "Fine! Let's remove the Klipsch labels and replace them with Thayer labels!" (My last name.)
But, no. They're still Klipsch to me.
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20 minutes ago, KT88 said:
Bulkogi, I couldn't have put it into words any better (if I were a native speaker).
I see it exactly as you do. If you like it this way then you should be able to enjoy your Heresy wholeheartedly...without having to experience guilt or a guilty conscience or a bitter aftertaste.
It is a personal decision. My personal decision is that I swapped sonicaps for polyester caps and I just like the sound better. But I don't think I'm a better person because I prefer those capacitors that are closer to the original.BTW - quite apart from the fundamental discussion - if you mean the capacitors that were originally on the xover of your Heresy from that era, then I don't think they are electrolytic types. If it's those Aerovox ones in the big metal cans, then it's polyester in oil. And today's polyester types without cooling oil, not used as motor run caps in air conditioners or washing machines have similar ESR as the old Aerovox.
Thus the xover as a whole retains the calculated total impedance. This is (from my point of view) technically more important than any "sound" of any capacitor.It has been a compelling rationale that led me to choose this capacitor type. Roy had explained the point with the total impedance some time ago in a post.
I made this decision because I found it technically plausible. I was rewarded sonically. I didn't do it because I should give preference to originality for reasons that have nothing to do with sound in any case.
In this case, the sound I like goes hand in hand with originality.Thank you for your perspective KT88. I certainly would not be able to tell that English isn't your first language!
And thank you for your clarification on the capacitors. Attached are before and after pictures.
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1 minute ago, billybob said:
One could however call it a modified Klipsch or a custom Klipsch design which would take Klipsch off the hook, if they were even on one in the first place. A simple deduction.
Precisely!
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40 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
Yes Klipsch could customize their products and it would be an original item designed and customized by them… but anyone other than Klipsch customizing or modifying a Klipsch product can’t legitimately call it an original Klipsch design or Klipsch Custom Design or Klipsch Modified Design since it wasn’t an actual Klipsch Design..!!!Its really that simple IMHO..
miketn 🙂
Absolutely correct with respect to the customized component. The question remains, however, whether a third party component renders the speaker no longer a Klipsch at all. I think it's dogmatic to say it does. A Cornscalla is no longer a Klipsch even though it is inspired by Klipsch. Few people would argue that it is. But a pair of Heresy IIs that (1) have recapped crossover networks that share the same specs as the originals but use different capacitors and (2) have third party tweeter diaphragms is a modified Heresy II. It's modified with some third party components. But it's too much to say that the speakers themselves ain't Klipsch anymore. In my opinion. Of course this is all a matter of opinion and a question of line drawing.
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I have followed everyone's responses with interest and, as is often the case, the topic has gone outside of my original questions. That's fine with me. Interesting debates are interesting, including this one!
But, as a reminder, my original post was simply a list of four questions. I was not advocating any of them, but simply trying to get some ideas on whether or not I should replace or re-cone the faded and dusty woofers in my 32 year old Heresy IIs.
For what it's worth, and based on the on-point advice in this thread, I have decided not to replace or re-cone the original woofers. I am leaving them stock. I've dusted them as best I can with a brush and am going to otherwise leave them as-is and declare the look to be "patina"! 😀
Now, moving beyond my original questions, because others have already:
As I posted separately yesterday in my summary of the project, I did only two things to the speakers functionally:
1. I had Crites replace the four original capacitors in the crossover networks with new Sonicap capacitors. The rest of the crossovers are untouched. I did that only because the original ones were 32 years old and I had noticed that the speakers sounded duller and were lacking some presence compared to when I bought them used in 2001. In other words, I did that to bring them back to spec so that they would sound "as good as new." Yes, the Sonicaps are polypropylene and the originals were electrolytic, but my understanding is that they have the exact same values and are not considered a sonic upgrade. In any event, with the original tweeters, they now sound exactly as I remember them sounding when I bought them (at which point they were 12 years old). I cannot solder and this service seemed to be the most logical available step.
2. I did also purchase, and have installed for now, the Crites titanium diaphragms for the tweeters, which absolutely is a modification. No question there. But two things. First, everything else about these speakers is still original. Second, I can always put the phenolic diaphragms back into the tweeters (I am keeping them safe and sound). So far the jury is out but I mostly enjoy the even more lively sound in my system. If Klipsch still sells original phenolic diaphragms for these tweeters, I would certainly consider buying a pair. But to me this is kind of like putting an Edelbrock carburetor and intake manifold on an old 289 mustang, and perhaps also a set of headers. True, it's no longer bone stock original, but it's still a Ford, it's still a Mustang, and it's easily reversible.
It is correct to point out that my speakers are no longer original. That is an objective fact. But to say they are no longer Klipsch is not a fact; rather, it's an opinion and it's dogmatic. It's ideology, a purity test, and a bucket of cold water, LOL. YMMV, of course!
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1 minute ago, billybob said:
Welcome back home... enjoy your Heresies and the fun.
Thanks!
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15 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:
Randy’s right. It ain’t a klipsch. But you go enjoy. It’s just not a klipsch anymore. Enjoy!!
Roy,
I'm a bit surprised by this response from you. I understand who you are, and your unequaled role in making Klipsch what it is today, including by maintaining its status after PWK's passing and the company's sale to VOX.
But to say my Klipsch Heresy IIs "ain't a Klipsch" because I had Crites recap the crossovers and because I'm auditioning their titanium tweeter diaphragms in what is otherwise a set of bone stock 1989 Heresy II, strikes me as a bit glib. Would you have me recap the crossovers myself with original electrolytic capacitors? Would they still be Klipsch then? And as for the diaphragms, I still have the originals and can put them back in if and when I want.
But you are the guru, and your mileage may vary.
For what it's worth, if you're interested, I just now posted a more fulsome report on my refurbishing project in the forum.
In any event, I am very glad that you have continued Paul Klipsch's legacy.
Respectfully,
Josh Thayer
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16 hours ago, Budman said:
23 post
44810 post
difference of
Sigh. I am not a newbie. I was JoshT on this forum years ago and have asked to get my old moniker back. I'll ask again.
And I'm 55 years old and have enjoyed listening to Klipsch speakers since lurking at the Music Box in Wellesley, MA in the late 1970s where Mr. Bell would demonstrate the Klipschorn to jaw dropped customers on a regular basis. It's true that I have only owned KLF 20s and these Heresy IIs, but I'm not a newbie here or to Klipsch.
Not that that should matter either way. My comments to Randy stand.
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Here are some pictures and commentary on my now finished mini-resto project of a pair of 1989 Heresy II speakers I bought 20 years ago from a guy up in Maine. Actually, he advertised them here on the Forum, so maybe he'll see this. I bought them from him in 2001 and they've been on long term loan to my mom since 2004. Time flies when you get older. I have wanted to reclaim them and restore them for a long time now, and with my wife's blessing and participation, we finally did it! (And we didn't leave my mom in the lurch either - we found a set of other vintage speakers that she's now enjoying.)
First, I'd like to thank the Forum members here who gave me input over the past few weeks in response to some initial posts. This place is rich in knowledge and it was fun to weight the various competing viewpoints too! I'm sure some will roll their eyes at certain things I did or didn't do.
What I did not do:
1. I decided not to avail myself of the HII to HIII conversion package offered by Klipsch. I agree with its proponents that it's a sweet deal, but I wanted to keep the budget even lower and preserve these speakers as (essentially) stock Heresy IIs.
2. I decided not to get replacement woofers or to try to visually restore the looks of the existing woofers. They sound great as is, and I'm going to declare their aged and dusty look at "patina," a favorite among hipsters this days anyway! 😉
3. I managed to avoid any need to solder, cuz I'm really bad at it.
What I did do:
1. Sent the crossover networks to Crites for the rebuilding service (old factory capacitors replaced with Sonicaps). Hence no need to solder.
2. Installed the Crites titanium diaphragms. BUT, I have kept the original phenolic ones so I can always put them back in. Hence the essentially original claim. 😀
3. Replaced all gaskets with a gasket tape from Parts Express that some of you kind people recommended.
4. Inverted the woofers (i.e., turned them upside down).
5. Lightly sanded the cabinets (220, then 400 sandpaper, and then 0000 steel wool). I wanted to preserve the existing golden oak stain by a previous owner while removing any remaining top coat or resin.
6. Applied four coats of Danish Oil (overkill - see below).
7. Spray painted the risers black (I was inspired by the Heresy IV look).
8. Cleaned the motor boards and backs with a water/white vinegar mix, using a damp rag and Q-tips, and then a vacuum.
9. Cleaned the speaker covers with Brissell spot remover, also as recommended by you fine people here. Great hack!What I might still do, but not in the near future:
1. Apply a couple coats of satin or semi-gloss oil-based polyurethane over the Danish Oil (and maybe the painted risers). D.O. has resins in it, so there's already a hard coat with a bit of a sheen.
What I learned, or confirmed, in the process:
1. Crites Loudspeakers is a godsend. Reasonable prices, nice people, and blindingly fast service.
2. The re-capped crossovers was the big improvement. After that I was hesitant to even try the titanium diaphragms. But . . .
3. I actually enjoy the titanium diaphragms! I generally dislike metal domed tweeters and worried that these might be ear bleeders, but they aren't. Compared to the original phenolic diaphragms, they do emphasize the lower treble somewhat, and the sound is somewhat more forward, but all in an engaging, sweet manner to my ears. That said . . .
4. Electronics matter! These guys sound a whole lot better in my system then they did at my mom's condo with an old NAD 740C receiver and even older Techniques CD changer (and those are perfectly fine components).
5. Subwoofers are a must for these speakers in my system. I don't have good corner or even close wall placement options in my condo, so acoustic bass reinforcement isn't possible. In my system, with two REL T7s, these refreshed Heresys are absolutely stunning where currently placed. With the subwoofers off, they're still kind of fun, but lack any deep bass or sense of scale. No surprise there, really.
6. They're not going to replace the Devore Super Nines, which are a better speaker. But that's OK - They will certainly get some repeated and prolonged playing times.
7. Even very basic wood refinishing is kind of tricky and very project-specific. In my case, I was working with a (nicely) pre-stained birch veneer over particle board, and I did not want to use stripper and then fuss with applying finish to birch wood. I came to realize that two coats of Danish Oil is all that's called for. The veneer stops absorbing it afterwards, so you're just adding more resin basically. The third and fourth coats took forever to dry and required repeated rub downs and long waits before they would dry.
8. The project was actually a lot of fun. I enjoyed finding simple ways to achieve certain goals, such as cleaning the motor boards instead of painting them and cleaning the filthy covers rather than replacing them. I'm full of smiles!
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17 hours ago, RandyH001 said:
and they dont sound like a KLIPSCH -
You know, Randy, that's a misleading answer and also assumes that I don't have any experience listening to Klipsch speakers.
The only things I had done to the inside of the speakers were (1) recapped crossovers, which only brings the sound quality back to how it was when the speakers were new and (2) replaced the original tweeter membranes with the titanium ones from Crites for the fun of hearing the difference in as close to an A-B comparison as possible. As far as the former, I'm not going to argue about whether the Sonicaps might sound slightly different that the original electrolytic capacitors when they were brand new. I consider it an improvement in quality and durability and a reasonable step when replacing 32 year old caps that don't sound right anymore. As far as the latter, OK, you got me, kind of. But I am keeping the original diaphragms safely in the box Crites uses for the replacements, so I can always put them back. I'm going to do a post summarizing the project, which is now completed, but as a spoiler, I actually like the titanium membranes, which surprised me. I usually dislike any metal tweeters, and I bought these more for the experiment of hearing them, assuming I'd switch back at some point. I probably won't, but maybe some future owner will, after I pass. I wouldn't call them an upgrade necessarily, but the I personally prefer their more lively sound. I don't think Mr. PWK would mind.
You seem to have a fixation with the philosophy "only original once" without acknowledging that aging electronics, and drivers, cease to remain in optimal condition over time and exact replacements are sometimes no longer available, even as NOS.
And yet you also occasionally post advice and videos which, while amusing, could be mistaken by a newbie as a good idea.
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17 hours ago, RandyH001 said:
Ummm, lol. No thanks. 😉
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9 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Well, if you do that, they are no longer KLIPSCH Heresy II's, technically, according to Roy's comments about this sort of thing. Best of luck to you.
Yes, OK, granted. But I'm keeping the original phenolic diaphragms so it'd be an easy change back. There is a difference in cost and result in what I am doing vs converting these to a Heresy III. Thanks.
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27 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Just get a pair of Dayton PA310-8 woofers and a rear port the box via the Super Heresy 1.0 thread. Should be a simple woofer swap for about a Ben Franklin and a Ulysses S. Grant! No crossover mod required and you'll get tons of bass.
Thanks, but I'm not interested in doing that at this point.
7 minutes ago, Islander said:I’d consider getting the upgrade/update kits from Klipsch. They have them for post-1985 Heresy IIs. I bought one for one of my H2s that I used for a centre channel between a pair of La Scalas. I was really impressed with the kit, which included everything, like 3 new drivers (woofer, squawker, and tweeter), plus new and very improved crossover. After I installed the kit, I could hear the improvements immediately, which included deeper bass, by 5 Hz, and improved sensitivity, from 97 dB/W/metre to 99.
The kits would be the first things I’d look at, because they’re Klipsch-approved and are a complete fully-engineered combo, and they keep your Klipsch speakers fully Klipsch.
Thanks, but I'm not going that route. I did give that some thought, and I totally agree with you that it's more than a reasonable deal, but I'd rather keep these as Heresy IIs. I have ordered the Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms and will compare then to the existing phenolic diaphragms, but I'm generally not a metal dome tweeter guy. We'll see.
I'm really only interested in thoughts on the questions I posted above, but I do appreciate the input from both of you because one never knows what the future might bring.
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As I've posted before, I'm working on refurbishing my Heresy IIs and was wondering about what, if anything, to do with the woofers. Aside from the typical absence of any deep bass, which I understand is simply a design element, I don't have any specific complaints and I don't notice anything obviously amiss. That is, they play loudly and clearly without any odd noises. They're faded and dusty, naturally, but that in and of itself doesn't bother me.
So here are my questions:
1. Aside from mechanical failure, what if anything does one listen for to determine if a woofer is no longer up to spec? (I ask because, for example, I was quite pleased and surprised with how much better the speakers sounded after Crites's crossover network rebuild service and was wondering if there might be some similarly noticeable improvement with new or rebuilt woofers).
2. Could anyone comment on whether the Crites CW1228 replacement woofer is an improvement over the original K22, let alone ones that are 32 years old? Again, I'm not expecting deeper bass, though of course would welcome any even if just incremental.
3. Has anyone re-coned their original K22s with the Speaker Exchange kit? If so, what prompted you to do that and was their an improvement?
4. Finally, is there any way to clean the surface of a paper woofer? I tried a toothbrush, and while I was gentle, it did seem to scratch the very surface a bit, albeit only slightly.
If there's no reason to replace or re-cone, I'd be happy not to, but I'm also open to it if others have had positive results. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
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30 minutes ago, sparks12kv said:
Very unusual outcome. I pulled the midrange and as Deang suggested the mid driver is fine, tested at 11.6 ohms. Then I pulled the crossover and hooked up the mid outside of the speaker cabinet and found that it did work, intermittently. Here's the strangest thing, by wiggling the binding posts I was able to make the mid work. Then I reinstalled the crossover and mid, hooked the speaker back up, and by wiggling the binding posts I can get the mid to work.
But only the midrange goes out, the tweeter and woofer stay working no matter what. I've never seen this before. I assume I need to re-check the soldering at the binding posts, but how can two of the three drivers not be affected by wiggling the binding posts like this?
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you checked the physical connection of the wires to the mid compression driver? I have a pair of Heresy IIs and the midrange driver kept cutting out on one of them. I assumed the membrane was bad, or the crossover, but it was literally just a loose connection. After cleaning up the contacts and making sure they were snuggly connected, they've been fine.
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Completed Heresy II Refurbishing Project
in Technical/Restorations
Posted · Edited by Bulkogi
Thanks. I loved finding those inspection labels inside! Such a cool little time capsule.
I think the initial couple of years the Heresy IIs had round speaker wire input / crossover network assemblies and then in 1987 or 88 they became rectangular, so that's another way to determine age.
Good luck in your project!