Flevoman
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Posts posted by Flevoman
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16 hours ago, sixspeed said:
I only skimmed through this but honestly if you don't like the sound of the LS AL5s and/or they don't work well in your room you shouldn't force yourself to like them. One thing is genuinely liking something and its a another getting used to it or adapting to acceptance. When you make the kind of investment a pair of new AL5s cost you should be utmost satisfied, if you aren't especially after going through the many useful tips from some of the other members here, placement, electronic front end etc. than I would honestly return them especially since you seemed to be happy with the CW4s and enjoy those in your room. The room is a HUGE factor. Arguably the biggest for what speaker will work or won't.
If the music isn't making you feel something either and you aren't getting into it or aren't being wowed by the sound at least once in awhile on amazing source material and all you can do is analyze/decide if you like what you are hearing then I'd get rid of them. Enjoy the CW4s or maybe try something like a JBL 4367 instead. Try a new SS integrated.
Seems that some long time LS owners prefer the late model LS IIs and although I haven't heard them in person, the new AL5s appear to have a thicker midrange than can sound almost muffled at times combined with weak bass compared to the fuller response KHorn, CW and Fortes. I know I prefer the AK5 KHorn to the new AK6 model. Both in look and sound. The AK6 and AL5 have different drivers and crossovers with a new voicing. For 2ch the LS sounds best not too far away from a wall otherwise the bass in enemic. 1ft-2.5ft seems to work best on them.
As others have said, you could have bad drivers for all you know. Generally though bad compression drivers are pretty easy to hear when they start to clip, distort, breakup, static pops etc. especially when amp/front end has been ruled out or they sound super rolled off. I will say as well that it took at least 500 hours of actual playtime before something like a new built LS or KHorn is truly broken in. The woofer loosens up and the compression drivers break in. They just do everything better.
I personally don't subscribe to the trope of high efficiency horns, that you HAVE to use tube amps either. This is entirely dependent on the listeners sound signature preference and in large part what kind of music one likes.
A nice mellow SET is all about the presence and immediacy with genres like Jazz or easy listening female vocals at modest volumes at best. You aren't gonna be able to blast some 80s new wave or some EDM banger on them, they will sound awful. SETs are more of a 1 trick pony amp with a very distinct sound and a seductive midrange for people that enjoy audiophile easy listening stuff most of the time. I honestly prefer my SS even for late night low volume Jazz sessions.
Perhaps try some SS integrateds. Something like a Pass INT-60, McIntosh MA5300, Bryston B135³ or Accuphase E-380. Pass and Accuphase also have Class A integrated options as well. I can attest to all 4 of those brands sounding amazing with Heritage. The newer Mac amps no longer have that veiled, mushy sound anymore they sound 100x better than their old stuff. I ran the MA5200 with the KHorn for a couple years and it was the best integrated amp I had owned up to that point by a long shot. Heritage is very revealing with high quality amplification.
Good luck and hope you truly find something that makes you happy with your system and sound. We've all been on that journey
Thank you for your response.
I understand what you're saying, and I share your opinion.
However, I also notice that you seem to be drawing some incorrect conclusions (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you).
I do hear things in the La Scala that give me a WOW feeling.
They can sound incredibly dynamic with certain songs (which I love).
Well, I've already mentioned some more things above about how I think they sound.
But they are great speakers.
I'm just dealing with an annoying acoustic problem, and indeed, as you said, if I can't solve this, it would be better for me to keep the CW4 (which I also think sounds great).
Unfortunately, returning them to the audio store is not an option. I would simply have to offer them as a used item, but that's not a problem. The price I paid was fair, and I hope it won't come to that, but if necessary, I can sell them again without much loss.If what you're saying is true and it takes 500 hours to fully break in the speakers (honestly, I'm not quite convinced of this myself), then they still have 250 hours to go 😉
Regarding your amplifier suggestion, thank you for the tips, I will definitely keep them in mind!! However, coincidentally, I tried a solid-state amp briefly this weekend. I have to be honest, it wasn't an expensive amplifier, priced around €800, but I wasn't really impressed. Everything sounded good, but I felt like it lacked liveliness. When I reconnected the Decware Zen triode afterwards, I immediately had that feeling of "Yes!!... This sounds so much better." I will certainly give a solid-state amp another chance in the future, but for now, the tube sound is what makes me the happiest 😁
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23 hours ago, KT88 said:
@Flevoman how are things going on? Do you now like your AL5?
Nice that you're asking.
Coincidentally, I tested the speakers against each other today and was already planning to do an update.
Exactly one week ago, I rotated my entire setup 90 degrees to hear how the speakers would sound that way.
The speakers were now playing in the lengthwise direction, and I had more than three meters behind my listening position.
As I mentioned before, in my normal setup, I have a very annoying resonance in the midrange.
The music also doesn't separate from the speakers.
What I noticed when the speakers were placed lengthwise was that my biggest problem was almost gone.
I still felt some form of resonance in certain songs, but I can't say for sure if it's part of the recording, due to the acoustics, or simply cabinet or horn resonance.
I had already received many tips and help from @mikebse2a3 to assist me with the acoustics and speaker placement.
I decided to leave everything as it was for now. Unfortunately, this cannot be a permanent setup because I'm limited by my living space. But I decided to do nothing for a week and just listen. This way, I could get used to how the Klipsch La Scala sounds, which will be useful when I test and experiment again.
And that moment was today, listening to the La Scala for several hours every day for a week. And although I feel they're not performing optimally yet, they sound very pleasant... absolutely.
Today, for the first time in a long time, I connected my Cornwall speakers again.
First, I listened to the La Scala for an hour, and then the CW4.
By the way, this was also the first time I heard the CW4 playing with lengthwise placement in the room.
What struck me as a difference between these two speakers:
- The CW4 sounds definitely fresher, crisper...
As if the treble knob is turned up a bit more.
I still think the La Scala sounds a bit dark in terms of sound. I'm getting used to it, but as soon as I switch to the CW4, it becomes immediately noticeable again.
- The CW4 definitely creates a better holographic image for me. The speakers disappear, and I hear a stage of instruments and vocals.
The La Scala presents a fine midrange and then gives a strong sense that the rest is coming from the left and right.
I have no doubt that this can still be improved, but I am convinced that the CW4 is simply better in this regard.
- The CW4 naturally goes deeper in the low end, you can hear it clearly... but the low end is also much more present. Honestly, for my taste, it's too much. I'm not a bass head, and it would be nice if the La Scala had a deeper low end, but I definitely prefer how the LS low end sounds.
- The La Scala has a noticeably larger midrange, and it also seems like the resolution is slightly higher than the CW4. It's just a bit more open.
When listening to the CW4, it sounded slightly less open (these are big words for small differences, by the way).
- I found the La Scala to sound more lively/dynamic than the CW4.
Now that I heard the CW4 again, it sounded a bit dull (again, big words for small differences).
If I can solve the annoying resonance issue and allow the speakers to perform better by fine-tuning, as @mikebse2a3 has given me a lot of information about, then the La Scala will be the ones to keep.
It may sound bizarre to say this about speakers that cost 17k, but I hear the potential they have; now I just need to fully realize it.
I do share the opinion that I read somewhere before in a review: these are not easy speakers.The speakers are now back in their original position, in the middle of the long wall because someone from an audio store is coming on Friday with bass traps and acoustic panels to see how it will turn out. I'm very curious, and of course, I'll let you know
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It does indeed seem that I have an acoustic problem.
I pushed the couch back quite a bit, sitting about 50cm away from the back wall now.
The speakers are positioned farther apart.
And it sounds noticeably better.
The music has gained a bit more air.
The bass goes slightly deeper.
And that resonance I occasionally heard seems to be gone now, or at least significantly reduced.
I'll listen again tomorrow with "fresh" ears, but this already gives a very positive first impression.-
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Exactly, I said it wrong I think, that's why I tried to be more clear.
Sorry, language barrier sometimes 😉
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7 minutes ago, the real Duke Spinner said:
🙄
I have tested two powercords combined with a filter.
I really could not hear any different.
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@KT88 You're right, he had already explained this clearly.
You remembered that correctly.
I'm not sure if we understand each other well.
But I have (just measured precisely) a space of 2.8 meters between the speakers.
Putting them further apart is not really possible for me.
This should be sufficient, I hope? -
1 hour ago, KT88 said:
One more thought, they are slightly used speakers, but technically everything is ok and without modifications, right? I understand everything possible but not really that they sound a bit dull without enough treble.
I'm 100% sure they are 100% stock.
But good point.
Ain't it just possible that this is the difference between the 2 horn types what I hear?
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3 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:
This is not how the speaker sounds and is an indicator that 1st attention should be given to placement/positioning and could be of real benefit based on my experiences.
I believe because of the nature of the La Scala frequency response especially in the 100Hz - 200Hz region that it’s very important to find a SBIR position that doesn’t emphasize this region unnaturally which can lead to the experience you describe here as well.
Yes this is definitely a strong indicator of loudspeaker placement and perhaps room acoustics need attention.
What is the nature/conditions of your listening position since some of the issues with speaker position can also be true of the chosen listening position like for example proximity to rear wall and early reflections issues.
If on good recordings the images are clinging to the speakers and not produced as a very open (3-dimensional) experience with the La Scalas disappearing as the sound sources then room acoustic reflections and loudspeaker/listener positions need attention in my experiences.
This 👍🙂 ….. is extremely important step that should be fully explored and best of all its free..!!!
miketn
I can fully agree with your opinion.
I haven't delved into it very deeply yet, but I notice that the Lascala pays much more attention to proper placement. And it seems very plausible (and I hope so too) that with better placement, the speaker will shine even more.
However, what does the term "SIBR position" mean? And what typically happens in the 100Hz-200Hz range? Is this a specific frequency range where the deep male voice or the low tones of a guitar can be found?
To give you a better idea of my situation: my living room is 5.5 meters wide and 12 meters long. The speakers are placed in the middle against the long wall. Currently, they are about 2.5 meters apart, measured from the outer edges of the speaker cabinets. The listening position is 3 meters away from the speakers (measured straight ahead). The speakers are angled 20 degrees inward, and the center of each speaker is positioned 50 cm from the wall.
Are there any general guidelines I can follow when searching for the right position? There are so many variables to consider, such as placing the listening position one meter from the wall or against the wall, having the speakers close to or away from the wall, not angled or slightly angled, or even extreme positioning towards the hotspot. While it will ultimately require some experimentation, having some guidelines can help me understand what I'm doing.
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Too bad he doesn't suit you.
I hope that after the conversion, he will suit you well. -
Did you have this amplifier custom-made?
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2 hours ago, KT88 said:
This is not to say that a tractrix horn has less qualities than an exponential horn. On the contrary, a tractrix can be quite outstanding and is the more modern approach. But perhaps it also means a certain period of adjustment for the ears from tractrix (CW4) „back“ to exponential (K400/401). But that a Lascala has too little clarity in the treble or too little energy in the treble, I can not confirm in my experience.
To be honest. I think you nailed it here.
I remember when I went from the CW3 to the CW4 the first thing I did notice was the more open and fresh sound of the CW4. This was the most noticeable for me at that time.
The mid of the lascala sounds detailed and open, but a tat dark.
Probably it will be a combination of a good amp and get used to the kind of sound.
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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
Even though you seem to like them, your description of the speakers is very different than what I hear from my LS II. I can say that upstream electronics can be detrimental to the sound. Lascalas aren’t “plug n play” that will sound awesome with every front end. By your own admission you’ve already heard some dramatic differences in amplifiers. A speaker like the LS will only magnify those differences.
I’d start with amplifiers. I know you’ve been looking at integrated amps, but don’t discount a good pre/amp combo. And source components are just as important.
Lascales are definitely not plug and play, no. But which speaker from the Heritage line is it then? Each speaker requires its own attention in its own way. As for amplifiers, yes... I agree with you. It's all about finding the right match.
For example, the Willsenton R300 has a somewhat dark sound. It worked fine with the CW4, which has a brighter sound. However, with the LS, the sound becomes too dark.
I visited the audio dealer yesterday, and now I have the Melody 300B STE here at home to try out. This already sounds better, music is open and with fine detail...but if it can sounds a bit more fresh it would be perfect.
Maybe the amp I traded in for the lascala would be a good match now 😄 (Melody MDA2 2A3, but combined with the CW4 it could sound sometimes to fresh/harsh)
It's funny that you also mentioned separate pre- and power amplifiers. That's what KT88 mentioned to me as well.
I'm going to discuss this with my audio dealer. Let's see what their advice is and what they might be able to offer. But thanks for your input.
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If I may share a song that made me giggle because it sounded incredibly tight and dynamic on the La Scala. With this track, I heard for the first time in my living room what makes the La Scala so special. I found it to sound very impressive on my setup.
Nenad Vasilic-Bass room
(nr 5) Kradem ti se u veceri
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7 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
So can we get an update on how the AL5s are performing in your room?
Yes, of course, but not much has changed yet.
I'm stuck at the point where I can hear that the Lascala can perform very well, but I feel like it's not quite there yet.
There are three things that are still holding me back.- I find the overall sound a bit dark, not quite open enough.
It's like you would want to turn the treble knob on your preamplifier a bit.
Is it a matter of proper placement/positioning? Another amplifier? Or should I just accept that this is how the speaker sounds?
- There is a certain resonance in the sound that I just can't determine whether it's in the recording, caused by the horn, or some kind of cabinet resonance.
It's only audible with certain tones/dynamics/frequencies in the music.
Is this characteristic of the Lascala? There's plenty of information about resonance in the original Lascala. However, I thought this was addressed in the II and AL5 versions.
- The music could separate better from the speaker.
Currently, I can still clearly hear the music coming from the left, right speaker, and the center. This can definitely be improved, but it's a matter of adjusting, tweaking, etc.I still need some time to get used to the sound of the speakers.
Since I haven't fully familiarized myself with it yet, it's difficult for me to perceive subtle changes.
I've decided to dedicate next weekend to adjusting the speakers and listening position to get that right first.
Of course, any advice is still very much welcome.Side note: It might seem like I am very dissatisfied with the performance of the Lascala. This is absolutely not the case. The speakers sound truly amazing. I think they look incredibly beautiful. And every time I turn the music back on, I enjoy what I hear. I am inherently a perfectionist, which drives me to get the most out of my setup, allowing me to focus so strongly on aspects where there is still room for improvement.
These speakers are awesome and so is the Cornwall 4.
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6 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Simple answer, really. Having designed bass horns for about 10 years, the Khorn against the wall is only good for 60 hz. or so, which is fine for most music. You can add EQ or a subwoofer below that. It's a 4 ft horn without corners, as is the Underground Jube. The rest is opinion without curves, of which I have several hundred accumulated.
Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Could you please explain it a bit more clearly for me? I'm really curious about your explanation.
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Wonderful topic to read, I'm always impressed when people have the skill to build there own gear.
Thumbs up to @henry4841😏
But thank you, great tip..
I will contact this guy. Maybe he can help me out
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Small update for those who are interested in de R300 vs more expensive amps.
Yesterday I tested the R300 with WE300B tubes to see how much this will improve the SQ.There where some differences, but not enough to spend 2K on tubes.
After the test with WE300B tubes , I went today to my audio dealer with the R300 under my arm. There, they had the Cayin 300B SET and the Melody SPE 300B.
I wanted to compare how well the R300 performed alongside the more expensive amplifiers. Personally, I find the R300 sounds quite decent, but it's rather muddy/dark in terms of sound. I miss the sparkle and openness in the sound.
First, we listened to the Cayin connected to the Klipsch Cornwall 4 speakers. The sound was fine, nothing particularly outstanding. It was a very balanced presentation. I even felt it could have been a bit more dynamic.
Then we connected the R300 to the Klipsch speakers. Immediately, it was evident that the sound was noticeably darker. The bass was more present, but it felt like a blanket covering the sound instead of being appropriately emphasized at the right moments. I missed a sense of openness, and the sparkle was noticeably diminished. It's worth mentioning how similar the two amplifiers look in terms of appearance. The idea that the R300 comes from the same factory seems very plausible. However, in terms of sound, there's a world of difference.
Considering that I was listening on a different set in a different environment, I might have missed some finer differences such as imaging and detailing.
In this comprising we both agreed that the Cayin was undoubtly the clear winner.
Next, we compared the Cayin with the Melody, and once again, there was a significant difference and this time in favor of the Melody. It had more punch and dynamics, and the sound was fresher and more open. By the way, the Melody is a 6.5K amplifier, while I believe the Cayin is around 4K.
As for the R300, it's a nice amp for the money I think, but it doesn't hold up against the more expensive amplifiers. For me, this was clear enough to not invest time and money in upgrading the R300 but instead offer it for sale, so it can shine in a setup that matches the amplifier.-
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DIY is not an option for me,sorry 😉
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Welcome, and beware... Klipsch Heritage sound can be addictive.
I also started with the Heresy, several speakers further now, and every speaker became bigger and bigger.. now I am listening to lascalas.
The scary thing is... There is also such a thing as the Jubilee 😳
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Ok... It is a good looking sub for sure.
But 4k... Pfewww... 🙄
I know by now that a good sub won't be cheap, but 4k is quiet a lot. I hope to find one that works really well but a bit cheaper then 4k...
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You mean this one?
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Yep..thats what I'm hoping for 😉
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49 minutes ago, henry4841 said:
A horn sub is going to be too huge for most. Best I am sure but there are many conventional subs that will blend in well with our horn bass speakers too.
Well, I have found many topics about this subject but in none they mention a brand or type what sub is best suitable with the LS.
What I do know is the Table Tuba as a good horn sub. But this is a DIY
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Now that this topic is still fresh, may I immediately use it for the potential next step?
I don't exclude the possibility of adding a sub in the future.
I've read some topics already and encountered various opinions.
Some say a sub is fine, while others say it doesn't match with the La Scala; only a horn sub will work, etc.
Keep in mind that I use a SET tube amplifier and no preamp. Also, I have no intention of building a sub myself.
Which subwoofer would be the best match?
I'm not a bass enthusiast; I mainly listen to blues, jazz, acoustic music, and light pop.
The subwoofer would be meant to add a slight fullness to the sound.
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Lascala AL5(possible with sub) or the Khorn AK6 (against a long wall)
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Well, the thing is I own them both.
So I can give it a try as long as I want.
No need to rush things to come to a conclusion.
There are still some options on the table.
And the problem is an acoustic problem, has nothing to do with the speaker itself.
But your correct, it is possible that I will end with the CW4 and I have to sell the LS, or store them in the garage for the "who knows what will happen in the future".