Erik Mandaville

You can get some pet spot remover for your pillow -- But what a great job you did on your amplifier kit! This got very good reviews in Audio Express, considering it's uncommon price tag. Did you get the ceramic tube sockets? The review I read mentioned there had been a problem with melting... Congrats and good work! Erik ...I don't know if you did this, but if the amp. runs a little on the hot side, you can drill holes in the bottom plate for some updraft cooling.

Gotcha, Leo. I agree, I prefer the utrapath output...there was indeed a difference with C4 in its stock position. So I need to send out an order -- think you got yours from Madisound, right? No need to answer, here, I can go have a look there myself. Thanks! As for the MBS system, I just bought a book at Barnes and Noble, which is dedicated to using computer-based music playback. There are some basics I am aware of, but I have a great deal to learn. The flexibility such a system would afford is of interest, and there are very high quality sound cards now available. I just need to read-up on all of this. I think it could turn out to be a good investment -- certainly equal to or better than many stand-alone players in the same price range. Have a good Sunday, Erik

Correction! That's MBS Audio Server. I've been up since 3:30 this morning!

Leo: I've been meaning to write to you, but this works well, too. I've got the bypass cap in it's original (bypass) position, and figuring out where I can put the additional C4A (aka ultrapath cap). I'm finding a preference to 'improve' the cathode to ground connection, but certainly notice a change -- and one I don't care for as much as the ultrapth output. Also, I detected some higher pitched hum when very close to the speakers, and traced this to the absence of C5. I tacked in a new Radio Shack 100mfd electrolytic, and things have improved. Regardless of a now quieter background, that sparkling clarity I got when I first experimented with the ultrapath output is no longer there. Now that you have both large poly caps (cathode bypass and ultrapath output), do you still prefer the combination of both as opposed to only the ultrapath? I should have ordered a 50mfd Solen this past week, but was so busy I forgot to. Also! I found an interesting volume control modification for increasing high frequency response at low volume levels. Often a lower listening levels, there is a bit of roll-off of some detail, which can be brought back by bypassing the input and wiper of a volume control with a small capacitor -- say 47-100pfd (picofarad). This capacitor remains effectively out of the circuit until the volume is turned down, and then begins to act as a high-pass filter. With my less efficient hearing and tendancy to listen at only moderate levels, I want to try this. It was often used on guitar amps for the same purpose. Right now, I'm saving every penny I can for a computer-based audio server from Dave Mallett. We very much need a new CD player, and the MSB unit we've seen in another thread is something I'm going to try. Take care! erik

I'm starting a new post here, with the hope of some increased light on Jack Eliano's (ok, and also -- in part -- Ron Welborne's)ultrapath linestage preamp. Mike: Having incorporated the 'Ultrapath' (a name in my opinion more 'catchy' than descriptive of it's function or purpose)bypass capacitor connection in my Moondog amplifiers (as Leo has also done), I am very interested in your possible construction project of the Ultrapath line stage. I know of builders who incorporate interstage and transformer coupling wherever possible, and I would be curious to know about your project and discoveries if and when you start to build. I did get the original Vacuum Tube Valley issue that contained the article and schematic for the Ultrapath linestage (and in a subsequent issue, the DRD Reactance amplifier), but can't seem to find it. Schematics for both are available on the Electra-Print website, I think. Please let us know as you progress -- and, are you planning on the conventional power supply or currently available battery-operated version from the Labs of Welborne? OK, now I get to talk about my dad, too... He uses a really cool setup for all his receivers and transmitters, which consists of battery power for everything, stored in very expensive Marine grade batteries, all of which is replenished by bright Arizona sunlight (I'd move there in a second if teachers had better salaries...) I keep thinking it would be at least a fun experiment to try this with audio equipment. Anyway, Mike, I'm interested in your prospective project! keep us up-to-date, would you? Erik

Never mind, Craig. I got the 'scoop' on this. Thanks, Erik

This is VERY helpful, Craig -- thanks! I respect your opinion and thoughts on this, and your tube electronics know-how reinforces that. What a great-looking unit. Do you like the way it sounds? I mean does or can it have a sonic signature of its own, per se' Working with digital information, it seems nothing really is lost or gained, but I'm learning that is in fact possible, and is dependent upon other components in the system -- just as in any audio system, for that matter. Erik

Thanks for all these suggestions to my original post, including the last CD only Denon player. I agree they are quite good for the expenditure. Well, the rest of this is simply way out of my realm of experience. I want to learn more, though, and the last bit of very comprehensive information was of great help. I always feel the best challenge of a serious audio system is the extent to which it is able to reproduce the tone, clarity, and subtle aspects of a live event -- which Dave's system seems to have accomplished rather well. His interpretations of the harvested music seems lucid and well-described -- 'specially if a blue-blooded elderly relative can get in on the excitement!. The list of requisite equipment leaves me in nothing short of a Sahara of ignorance, though. I know nothing about any of the hardware mentioned, and am not boasting to say that I know what a sound card is. That much I've got (please keep comments to yourselves!). However, I have some basic understanding of power supply design, obviously more in its associations with comparatively antiquated equipment. But very good sounding machines, nevertheless -- which is another reason I am interested in what Dave is saying: he has experience with both, and incorporates both I would like to suggest or submit the possibility of an outboard power supply. If PS generated artifacts have been found to be something of an issue, there is not much that can be improved upon the increase of distance between power supply components (including cooling fans)and more sensitive, signal carrying circuitry. Does this have any value, Dave, and is it possible, based on your knowledge of hardware used, to separate the power supply (connected via an interconnect a few feet long) from the rest of the system???? it makes sense to me. I just don't know any more about this, but if something of the nature just mentioned doesn't yet exist for serious music playback of this type....perhaps it could be researched. Shielding the PS in a metal (aluminium) sub enclosure, where that secondary chassis is connected to the main chassis ground, could also help stray EMI, RFI, and other line grunge from creeeeeeping into the rest of the system. The more sensitive one's amps (especially those with rather high input impedance/s), the more this becomes an area of concern. I'm still ears, and wanting to learn more! Sounds like a fascinating and potentially very rewarding adventure! Erik

I appreciate being guided with this -- it is oddly just so different from what I have been used to for so long. And yes, it's becoming much clearer to me. The most important thing for me is that I want to be able to still use my reference preamp and amplifiers. Very likely, your systems has a line level signal similar in strength to that of a conventional CD player, which would enable it to be connected directly to the amplifiers. I still prefer the active gain of my tube preamp, however. With those components maintained in the loop, I'm increasingly curious about the obvious flexibility this format is capable of. On top of that, I'm really curious to record an LP to disk! Now I want a picture of the actual hardware needed -- I'm absolutely visual learner, I guess. Do you know of a website I can visit to check some of this out? I'm assuming an excellent sound card with an RCA output on it is part of the package, right? Forgive my obvious ignorance!?

Dave: Sounds promising, and I have MANY albums I'd like to record on disc. I'm curious though: Do you find that the ability to remove non-music related pops and ticks on a record also compromises high frequency response. I remember in the 70s and 80s when I used to record lots of my records onto tape, that I disliked Dolby for that reason. It always seemed to put a veil over things, regardless of the fact that tape hiss was significantly reduced. Master tape hiss never bothered me, but using Dolby just killed things for me, musically. This gets more interesting, yet! Erik

Thanks, Dave: This sounds interesting! We have a PC we are not using, which could be devoted to a setup similar to what you propose. Still, I am not very fluent in current digital technology -- at least as it relates to the type of system you are talking about. What would need to be done to the surplus (but still in very good shape)CPU in order to take advantage of this? Do you know of a website that could help educate me a little more -- including pictorials of hardware required and involved? My wife is a DBA far more better with computers than I -- so I at least have someone who is patient and understanding of my hobby, and who could help me out! What is the source of the music, though? Are these MP3 files, or something? I've just never done anything with this, before! I know this sounds idiotic, but where does the signal go from the computer? There aren't any RCA jacks on the back, and require that connect to my preamp. Again, I say all this at the risk of sounding totally ignorant -- it's because I am! Thanks for your help and explanation, Erik

That SACD player is in fact one I remember reading about. I'll have a look! I actually prefer single to multi disc, but at that price and performance ratio, one can't be too picky, I guess. Maybe it would be nice to have the convenience of a multi-disc changer. Thanks for your help! Erik

Hi, Mallett: Yeah, I guess I'm a little silly. I even still get up out of my chair to flip over one of those big black discs! But your point is well-taken. There is newer technology available for those who want or desire it. I don't know enough about it to judge, but I can have an open mind. Just as literary translations leave some small bit of information -- something very subtle or nuances for which direct translation my be difficult if not impossible -- I wonder that some of this may in some small way also be true for such an audio playback system. But maybe I'm missing something. How many times does such digital information/signal get processed before it hits a preamplifier? Would you mind going to the trouble of providing a sort of verbal flow-chart that traces the signal from its origin to the listener? Just something very brief to give me an idea -- I'm interested in how this works! What other hardware besides a PC is needed? Thanks for your response! Erik

I would appreciate it if some of you might offer suggestions on a replacement CD player. I've spent so much time doing surgery on my amps and preamps, that I've neglected my most frequently used source -- a Denon 1015 CD player. It's many years old; I have cleaned it inside and out several times; and it's now have tracking problems towards the end of many CDs. This seems to get worse month to month. I have always really like the Rega players, but I just can't afford anything like that right now. I'm serious in saying that I'm curious about what some of you have found in 'consumer-grade' single play CD players. Or would a 96/24 DVD player be a better option right now? I have very little experience with front end components (that shouldn't be the case, but is!), and was wondering if any of you have found something inexpensive ($200 or under)that sounds much better than it costs? I even bought my Denon used from a Hi-End audio store that went out of business -- it was used as their floor model before I got it at a discount. So the thing has seen better days! Thanks! Erik

Morning Cut-Throat: Just wanted to mention I recently visited the AVA website, which is well done. I honestly really like the way their products look, in that they sort of reflect a certain historical, 'receiving radio' lineage. I've got a couple of old receivers (Hammarlund) that I like to listen to shorwave on, and the AVA stuff reminded me of that -- granted the Hammarlund is about 5 times the size! However, the main reason I'm writing here has to do with Kelly's post. I honestly don't think he was intending anything unkind or antagonistic. It was more of a sort of tongue-in-cheek sort of thing, I think. He spent some time describing merits of the Pantheon, as I have also done with my own Moondogs, Bottlehead Foreplay preamp, and a few products by other small audio electronics companies. So It's understandable that you should or would want to share something about the AVA equipment. I was familiar with their Dynaco Stereo 70 upgrade kit, but didn't know they also had quite a range of SS, tube and hybrid amps and preamps. They seem reasonably priced, too. You know, we often go to lengths describing the sound of different components, but I am starting to really believe that the receiving apparatus (apparati?)-- namely our ears and associated sound processing structures -- is as equally or even more important. In otherwords, the differences in individual physiology and perception must have some influence in all of this. And heck! With all the different choices available, how can anyone audition everything in order to find the very best, much less afford whatever 'the best' happened to be?! So this is another reason I like the simplicity of single ended, point-to-point wired amplifiers: They are much easier to 'season-to-tast,' if you will. An oil cap in position; a poly or ceramic cap in another...carbon comp. resistors instead of metal film, etc. etc. This is my point. We all have different tastes and likes. I joke with my wife about how much salt she puts on her food, and some have kidded me about my heavy use of bright-sounding capacitors and interconnects. Thanks for sharing that AVA stuff -- they look really pretty good, and seem to use high quality toroidal transformers and other parts. I also noticed they use ceramic bypass caps across the AC input jack. That is absolutely a trick that was also used many years ago to help snub and filter line transients and RF grunge. Cool! Erik

These are excellent posts! And to Leo and the ultrapath output connection: With C4 back in the cathode resistor bypass position, what value are you using for C4A? Your idea of providing an improved ground reference for C4 makes sense, and I am very curious to add C4A between cathode and the OPT. I can't remember what value you said you used for it, Leo. Was it the same as the stock C4, or a little higher -- 50 or 60 mfd. maybe? Great work! Erik

Dean: With all respect, I must beg to differ. I have done nothing but scratch at the "electrical mysteries of the universe," and enjoy single-ended amplifiers for the very characteristic with which you seem less comfortable. Into La Scalas or Lowthers, the otherwise very modest output of a 2A3 can be painfully loud. But who wants that kind of potentially dangerous volume? I certainly don't. It is the directness and almost uncanny sense of realism and immediacy that fascinates and captivates me. Like colors in a painting, dynamic contrasts are, for me, one of the elements of music that give it life, breath, and substance. No system I have ever owned has been able to recreate the emotion and impact of live music better than the Moondogs and extremely efficient horn speakers. I have built several pair of loudspeakers using some of the best drivers and passive crossover components available, and they just don't have the magical qualities of the La Scalas or horn-loaded Lowthers. And that, I think, is the significant and in my opinion absolutely correct aspect of your statement: Low-power amplifiers (3 watts or less)must be used with speakers of extraordinary efficiency and sensitivity in order to produce a believable illusion of live music. Crossoverless Lowthers have truly amazing speed and transparency, but lack just a bit of the foundation needed for truly comprehensive reproduction. The La Scalas, on the other hand, handle lower octaves far better -- but may or may not (I can't make up my mind!)have the midrange articulation of Lowthers. Poor me, right!? So this is the reason I'm working on a system that combines the best qualities of both. The search is of course part of the fun, but the appreciation of music is ultimately what matters most to me. Moondogs and horns have just brought me closer to the essence of live, present music than anything I have heard! Erik

Randy: Do you know if your CD player has dual outputs and its own volume control. If it has a fixed and variable output, you could use the variable output and self-contained volume control until you get another preamp -- or Craig (very kindly) has a look at it for you. You've just got to be able to put the CD player near your amplifiers, so you can go straight for the variable outputs to the inputs on your amp/amps. Kelly also mentioned a simple passive unit, if you don't have a variable output CD player. These are great to have for emergencies like this, and take no time at all to build. I'd be happy to take you through the steps of making one if you like, and parts can be found very cheap at Radio Shack. You just need a little chassis of some sort (I once used an upside-down aluminum bread pan from Target), 4 RCA jacks (or more if you have more than one source), two volume controls (use 10K for better impedance matching with your amps), a selector switch (only if you're going to use more than one source)and some cheap hookup wire -- I once used an old lamp cord). It takes nothing at all, and obviously doesn't need lots of fancy parts to work well. It it turns out to be for the long haul, you can always get a better volume control. Check on that variable output of your CD player, though... Good luck, Erik

I totally agree with Ed. I want to emphasize again that the Kirk's craftsmaship with selector switch was very good, but I forgot it took a second go-around to get it that way. I'm totally happy with the AE-1, and the new EH 6SN7s sound very, very good in it. By the way, Randy! I'm using the same batter-powered MM phono stage from Radio Shack. For the money it is incredibly good! I want to try to build a more conventional 12AX7 based phono section, but they are HARD to do. I doubt that it would 'better' the phono stage in your Cary once it's working the way it should. Good Luck, Randy.

Sorry to hear of your preamp problems, Randy. I was the one who bought Ed's AE-1 linestage -- initially to check it out, but then ended up buying it. It's really a great preamplifier, but took a good deal of work to get it that way. Ed pointed out that one channel barely had any output: One of the high voltage rectifier was bad, and the tube was only getting heater current -- with the preamp on standby, a signal can still be passed, but at a greatly reduced output. And then the other HV rectifier went out, and things sounded really bad. This was originally a kit, and there is no telling about the building experience of the person who first constructed it -- I have an idea about that, though. Long, long story made shorter: The entire power supply was rebuilt, including that of the filament section. A few of the components used were not values stated on the schematic ($12.00 from AES), and so those were corrected. So many wires were on the verge of breaking, that something went wrong practically every time I put it back in the system. So ALL, and I mean all wiring was completely re-done. There were also two electrolytic capacitors that had been pushed into the chassis with such force to make them fit, that the undersides of the can were crushed in. Those were replaced with correct value electrolytics last weekend. There was still a persistent buzz that I couldn't trace. Then I noticed last Friday that, looking at the preamp at eye-level, one of the 6SN7s was sticking out of its socket slightly more than maybe 1/8". I couldn't get it to go in any further than that. And that was the source of the buzz! One of the tube pins was filled with a bunch of solder that had dripped in from the underside. The pin was extracted; solder removed with de-soldering braid; and things were quiet, and very clean sounding. Preamps should also be ideally grounded at a single common point, but this thing was grounded all over the chassis. I only have one section left to do to connect it to the star ground, and that will be it. I can't see how any thorough inspection would not have exposed at least some of these problems -- almost all of which were certainly related to the original construction of the kit. Kirk in fact did a first rate job with the selector switch replacment, but I really didn't care for the shunt volume control modification. So, what he did he did well, but a thorough inspection and test at AES this preamp did not get. Sorry! Erik

Looks good, Leo. Did you try the ultrapath connection on that cathode by-pass cap yet? Erik And, just out of curiosity, what voltage are you running on the 6SN7 plate -- are just just using the second stage as is? Like the computer dummy I often am, I accidentally deleted the schematic you sent to me. I wish I hadn't, because I looked for it this weekend! Take care!

I'm sure you all of heard of an MTM (midrange-tweeter-midrange)speaker arrangement...or sometimes called a D'appolito (think I spelled that right)array. There are numerous well-praised systems using this driver arrangment --I've experimented with this before, having built several pair of my own speakers, using drivers from companies like SEAS, Vifa, Polydax (now Audax), Peerless, etc. With Lowthers on top of the La Scalas, the predicted "...sounds like ****" (I don't blame you for saying that!)simply can't be used to describe the sound. Being intimately familiar with full-range single drivers, I know about their advantages -- as well as some of their disadvantages. I've been using the Lowther PM2As (expensive!)in the rear-loaded Medallion horns for the past five years...and enjoyed every moment....for the most part. Kelly H. made an insightful comment about the importance of a musical foundation, which translates into octaves not usually attainable by Lowthers in horns (at least in the Medallion horns). In the Medallion, their isn't much of anything, really, below about 60Hz. But the midrange is absolutely stunning! So I had the idea last weekend to remove the PM2As and put them on the front top of the La Scalas. You see, out of the big horns, the Lowthers naturally roll-off at around 150-160 HZ. So, they are being used for their uncanny transparency for mid and higher frequencies -- which is their forte'. Moroever, rear-loaded horns have a compression chamber that submits the rear of the cone to pronounced back-wave reflections, which does nothing good as far as sound goes. Several people I know who use Lowthers in similar horns, use a layer of linear (not concentric) Deflex on the back panel of the compression chamber -- to deal with the back-wave problems and associated distortion. Being of very similar efficiency (volume level from each seems nearly identically balanced to me), the 15 ohm Lowther is wired in parallel with the La Scalas, but is independent of the latter's crossover. The resulting system is basically an MTM array, with the upper midrange driver (the Lowther) also having the ability for exceptional high frequency response -- which they are more than capable of! But the main advantage, and what I found so fascinating by the sound, was the fact that the Lowther was now functioning very much as a dipole radiator -- much like an electrostatic panel, whose backwave is a fundamental part of its perforamance and sonic signature. There are many open baffle designs, using drivers frequently found in systems using either sealed, vented, or transmission line enclosures; and in terms of Lowthers -- horns. Deang: Welborne Labs offers the ORIS 150 (approx roll-off frequency of Lowthers in free air), which is very much like what I'm doing, minus of course, the addtional two drivers. Lots of people also use the La Scala bass bin because it is fast enough to keep up with the Lowther -- so much of the forcasted response problems some might attribute to this application, have not been my experience. I didn't expect anything from this experiment, and had doubts about what it would sound like. But I simply can't forget the incredible sense of immediacy, and our listening room loaded -- fully and completely -- with a sound we haven't heard from either the La Scalas or Lowthers when used alone. Transient response and level of detail was unlike anything I have ever heard. The only thing about the setup was that it was maybe just slightly overbearing in terms of high frequency extension -- which is an easy enough problem to solve. So it needs a little work, but the open baffle Lowther in conjunction with the La Scala was a big surprise. Obviously not everyone might like the sound, but I'm going to do what I can to tweak this thing as best as I can; it's too promising of a sound to not explore a little more. Lastly, I thought I was the only one who has tried this and liked it. NOT SO! There are a number of internet sites that discuss Lowthers on open baffles. Perhaps the most notable one being Dick Olsher's, who did something very similar in a speaker he calls the 'Basszilla.' Do a search on like 'open-baffle Basszilla' and you can see what it looks like. To answer your question, Dean: I can't tell you why I decided to try the Lowther on top of the La Scala. If I could share the sound with you, though, you might (or might not) understand why I'm so interested in developing it. Erik

My wife and I were doing basic, household shopping last weekend at Target, and I saw something in the 'hardware and home improvement' that I thought would work perfectly for a temporary open-baffle Lowther installation. A toilet seat cover in natural oak could be perfect! The oval shape with rounded off edges might be perfect for low diffraction, but the seat cover itself would need to be removed from the actual toilet seat. It could then be glued and screwed to a more appropriate piece of wood. Actually, I thought using the seat cover in conjunction with the seat might be useful: It would provide a hinged system that would allow for experimentation of the best driver angle -- which in my case would maybe need to be slightly less than 90 degrees in relation to the floor. I have a small problem though: My wife said she thought the idea was interesting (that was nice!), but that she was not altogether comfortable with the thought of having a toilet seat on top of each La Scala! How can I help but admit she has a point. It could be just the thing though, so maybe I'll try this minus the actual toilet seat -- which is the most 'telling' about the truth of the form's intended function! And for Moondog owners: I recently received an e-issue of the Transcendent Sound newsletter, and Rozenblit included a very simple procedure for killing some ground loop noise in one of his OTL amps. He indicated this would only be a concern for those using very high sensitivity speakers, so I thought I would pass it on to you all. My Moondogs are really fairly quiet, but I do get a very low-level hum with an input from my preamp. The modification is this: instead of grounding the ground of the RCA jack directly to the chassis, make the ground connection by way of a 10 ohm (1/2 watt)resistor. The reason this would work well on Moondogs has to do with the proximity of the RCA jack and speaker binding posts. One could simply install the resistor between the negative binding post and RCA jack ground tab. The input jack on my amps, and I think Leok also has this, is on the top of the chassis, so I'll have to try things slightly differently....This may or may not work for you, and if you don't have any noise issues, than it's not even a concern. I just wanted to pass it on as something to try. Erik

As KH mentioned, the Lowthers 'ain't cheap, for sure. I had never heard them before I decided to just go for it, but read everything I could about them in particular, and single range 'driving,' in particular. I need to learn a bit more about open baffle applications, and just can't say too much about what might be needed for Lowthers. I think what I'm interested in is trying to work out the best possible arrangment to work with the La Scalas. I had been listening exclusively to Lowthers for about five years, and the La Scalas made really brought out aspects of music I wasn't getting before. The Lowthers are amazingly fast, as all of you have mentioned, and I just didn't think adding a conventional subwoofer would work that well. Many subs I've heard sound more like one-note thumping, but that's actually what most people who owned the ones I heard used them for -- movie soundtracks like exploding bombs, throbbing helicopter blades, etc. The La Scalas ARE able to keep pace in that respect, I think, and I know there are some ORIS horn owners who use the La Scala bass bin in conjunction with the horn. I'm sure the Moondog Audio horn system (what's that cost...something like 14 or $15,000?!)sounds really good. Taken out of the Medallion horns, the high frequency extension was honestly too much for me. A good oil capacitor in the amps may just be what is needed, and I want to give that a try in the near future. I think you may be right about those Audio 1 capacitors, Kelly. Everytime I find even a brief reference to them, they are described as 'thick' or 'heavy' sounding...which I kind of found with the AES-1 when I first got it working again. The overall sound was very full and engaging, but there was just a lack of sparkle. And! I didn't realize Leo was only using one 6SN7 in the Moondogs. Guess I need to learn to read more carefully. I've seen just one used with a couple of different 2A3 amps, often using direct coupling. I think I'll keep that aspect of the Moondog stock, though. Ok...thanks for the feedback, and Tony for the attachment. Is that your driver? I see it has the new rolled midrange cone. I've thought about an upgrade, but my PM2As are sounding too good after all this break-in time. I've never even really noticed the so-called 'Lowther shout' in the 2KHz range, but I tend to like a forward sounding speakers. Erik

I have know idea what made me do this, but I took my Lowther PM2As out of the Medallion cabinets Saturday night, and set them on top of the La Scalas. I wired them in parallel with the Klipschs, and listened to the most amazing sound I've heard out of them! It was strange, really...imaging was not great, but not bad, either. What was really captivating was the scale of the sound. I think what was happening, was that the free-air Lowther was behaving like a dipole speaker, with the back wave suddenly having the opportunity to contribute, though 180 degrees out of phase from the front wave, but bouncing back again off the rear wall. It wasn't a very nice arrangment to look at, but it sure sounded good. Out of the big, rear-loaded horn, the Lowthers roll off at about 150-160 Hz, and they still use no crossover of any kind. Looking around on the internet, I found a guy who also tried this, and has the Lowthers installed on a flat (of course) open baffle. This setup is then completed with a subwoofer for the lower notes. Anyway, it was an interesting experiment, and this to Kelly: I think I may just have found that elusive detail! Maybe too much, actually, since I would say the balance is just on the 'hot' side. A decent looking oak baffle could be made in order to install the PM2As on top of the La Scalas, and I could use my router of round-over the backside of the driver hole, so the driver isn't loading into a hard, sharp edge. Maybe I should throw an oil cap into the Moodogs (I've got a couple from AES-1 preamp) The Lowthers are back in the Medallions, but I can't seem to let go of that amazing music! My wife Marie and I were downstairs at one point, and she said "Would you please tell those people up there to play a little less loud?" I just had to share this! Erik