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High Level Out on SUB 10 - Need help


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Hello. Please allow my username to pre-explain everything
you will encounter in my threads on this forum. The past few days have been ridiculous
and stressful, and I feel like an imbecile. So no need to spike the ball;)

I just want my set up to be as good as it can be, given my

So, I know nothing about audio equipment. Nothing. I have
never really owned a stereo or receiver before, and knew nothing about what I
was doing when I bought the following, other than read some reviews online.

1) Klipsch Icon VF-36 speakers (pair)

2) Klipsch Synergy Sub 10 woofer. http://www.your-home-theater-design.com/images/klipsch_subwoofer_back.jpg

3) Dennon AVR 687 receiver

Ok, so where to begin. First I get this rig back to the
relatively small room I am placing it in and I cant for the life of me make it
look good in the room. The subwoofer was likely overkill, but because I bought
it as part of a deal at best buy they wont take it back without completely
ripping me off, so it’s a keeper. But I digress.

Long story short, I broke my brand new receiver by breaking
off an audio cable in the rca output jack to the woofer. Now my only option for
connecting the woofer is by using the “high level” connections using speaker
wire and re routing the speakers through the woofer. Now, my initial impression
was that this is an inferior connection, but it doesn’t see to sound that
. My concern is, in the sub's manual using the High Level Out “passes the
High Level In signal to your….speakers with frequencies below 100hz removed” Now, does this mean that the frequencies below 100hz are automatically
handled by the sub, or are they being eliminated outright by the connection? I
assume that because I get output from the sub after having set crossover on it
to frequencies below 100hz that the former is true, but the manual is not

re: crossover, if my assumption is correct that the woofer is
automatiically compensating for frequencies below 100hz, than is there
any point setting the crossover to anything below that? The onboard
"low pass" attenuator only goes to 120hz, should I just max it out, or
is that too high>

The manual for the receiver says that if I have a woofer its best to se the speakers in the config as "small". Is this the case even
for larg floor standing speakers? Also, is it better to have the woofer
handle all the bass, or to use the woofer in combo with the speakers.

there any special settings I should be looking for for a 2.1 set up, as
opposed to the standars surround sound? I currently have it set to
"stereo", which I think is right, but i'm not sure.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Hello and welcome to the Forums.

Don't worry about not being an expert, there are so many people on these forums who are willing to help.

If I could recommend taking your receiver to a repair shop to get the broken RCA prong removed. Im sure it wouldn't cost alot and theen your receiver would be like new again.

I hope that helps, and welcome.

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Maybe someone with more experience with the situation will comment. Nonetheless:

1) The sub should be, as you say, responding to freqs below the cutoff set by controls on the sub. Freqs above that should be going to the main speakers, which are sometimes called flanking speakers. Just that they are at the side.

2) Your amp has a menu. Which you have found. This should be used to set your main speakers to "large". You may find other settings on the amp which ask if you have a sub. (Actually, setting the mains to "large" might accomplish this, too, but read the manual. Some allow the mains to be large and lets you use a sub.)

3) There is a reason for 2). The sub is designed with several situations in mind.

3.1) One set up is that you are sending it a low level RCA type output from the amp LFE (low frequence effects) output, to the sub. A menu setting indicating that there is sub may or should prevent the final amplifier circuits from sending anything below the amp's cut off (note the amp's cut off0 to the mains. This cut off is probably adjustable..Again, check the manual. Although the LFE output (aka sub output) is always limited to low freqs, you may or may not be affecting whether lows actually go to the mains; it may require the "small" setting.

3.2) "Small" setting for the mains, though, should always mean you're not sending bass to the mains. (And you don't want "small" in your situation.)

3.3) The second set up for the woofer allows the sub to be used with an amp which does not have a LFE - sub output. Because of the broken LFE output jack issue, you are in this situation.

3.4) In this situation the amp has to be set up to believe you have the two flanking speakers and you wish to feed them with all freqs. That is why you must set the amp to "large".

3.5) Assuming 3.4, you are sending all freqs out the speaker terminals and to the main speakers, as far as the amp knows.

3.6) Now the sub, at its high level inputs receives all freqs. The sub itself,, though only has acoustic output below the cut off set by the sub.

3.7) Then there is the high level output from the sub which goes to the flanking speakers. This is a high level signal. This may or may not include the low freqs. I'll have to look at the manual for the sub.

3.8) If the sub sounds overpowering, you'll have to play with settings on the sub itself.

Wm McD.

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Okay, now I've looked at the manual. You can find it on the main site if you don't have yours.

I'll make some addititional comments.

A) There is a technical issue when you are using the high level connection through the sub to feed the mains. Does it, or does it not restrict the bass below the sub cut-off freq to the mains? It would be good if it does because keeping the bass out of the mains is a beneficial effect of having a sub. Let the sub do the work.

My guess is that it does not apply such filtering. This is because it is difficult to design a passive crossover without knowing the impedance of the speakers, and that varies from speaker to speaker.

B) You are not screwed quite as much as you might think because of the lack of an LFE output. Look at the manual for the Sub-10. It shows that you can use two RCA cables to feed the sub, and feed it from two low level outputs from the amp. You may well have these on the back of your amp. You'll have to check the amp manual. These should not be "tape out" That is because the tape out is always a full level and does not respond to the volume control. There might be something like "pre-amp out."

Now you are not using the high level (speaker level) to feed the sub.

This will give you a low level RCA feed to the sub which contains all freqs. That is okay because the internal low level crossover in the sub will take care of that bass it is putting out. The output freq crossover is set by the sub.

C) Now it will probably best to set the mains to small. The low level "pre-amp out" should not be restricted (we hope). But the output of the power amp portion (this comes after the pre amp out) will be rolled off.

D) Maybe the following has not been discussed. The cut-off freq set at the amp, should match the cut-off freq set in the sub. It may be that both have a default of 70 Hz. Try that as a start.

Wm McD

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Thank you so much for the response. Very helpfull (especially in its spinozian style ;) )

Re A. Would the phrase "passes the
High Level In signal to your….speakers with frequencies below 100hz removed" not indicate that the sub is applying such filtering? (3.6 previous post?)

Re B. Perhaps I can now better clarify. The output that was broken is labled "pre out". Its a single "connection terminal for subwoofer with built in amplifier" (so says the manual). I'm not certain it is an "LFE Output", although I assume it is because it is only one connection as opposed to the two (left and right) indicated on the sub manual. I'm not certain I follow, but are you saying it might be possible to assign another audio out terminal, like the one labled "vcr" to the sub?

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"The past few days have been ridiculous and stressful, and I feel like an imbecile. So no need to spike the ball;"

Me too, regarding things at work.

Let me download both manuals and get back to you. Is the weekend soon enough?

(Edit, that sounded snarly. Such was not intended. It is just that I've got some big projects coming due and this thing deserves a good look in quiet times. Smile.)

Hey, where are the rest of the guys?

Wm McD

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My concern is, in the sub's manual using the High Level Out “passes the
High Level In signal to your….speakers with frequencies below 100hz removed” Now, does this mean that the frequencies below 100hz are automatically
handled by the sub, or are they being eliminated outright by the connection?

Dummy, the sub's high-level speaker outputs are high-passed at 100Hz. This means that they only pass those frequencies above ~100Hz to the speakers that are connected to them. As pointed out, in order to use a speaker level connection to your sub, you must set the front speakers to LARGE or FULL RANGE (and also set the receiver up as having NO SUB).

(The high-pass filter is not a brick-wall. There is a slope or drop-off associated with it. So, frequencies below 100Hz will still get past the filter but they drop off at some rate the further those frequencies are below 100Hz. Ths slope of most subs' high pass filters are usually either 12dB/octave or 24dB/octave. This means that at 50Hz, which is an octave below 100Hz, the output will be down either 12dB or 24dB.)

The sub also has a variable low-pass filter. This is often incorrectly called the sub's "crossover". It's not. It is an adjustable low-pass filter. Assuming that your speakers ARE capable of output down to (and beyond) 100Hz, you would use the sub's variable low-pass to adjust it to your speakers' output characteristrics when they are being high-passed at 100Hz. The correct setting for the sub's variable low-pass filter may be ~100Hz. But it may be lower or higher than that. For example, the room may have a peak in its frequency response ~100Hz in which case the optimal setting for the sub's variable low-pass may be lower than 100Hz. Also, the knob that adjusts the low-pass and the frequency scale printed or painted around the knob that adjusts the low-pass is not hugely accurate. So, the correct setting for the sub's variable low-pass needs to be determined empirically, either by adjusting it to taste, or by measuring your room's frequency response and adjusting the sub's variable low-pass to a setting that provides the flattest response.

Now, you can also run your front speakers full-range, if you wish, by simply comnecting them directly to your receiver's speaker outputs. Yes, you can connect both the sub and the speakers to the same outputs. If you run your speakers full-range, you would use the sub's variable low-pass to adjust the sub to your speakers' low-end roll-off. Again, the correct setting would need to be determined empirically. Realize, though, that if you run your speakers full-range when the receiver is configured as having NO SUB that the LFE channel (with material that contains an LFE channel) will be sent to your speakers. Whether this would be problematic for you depends upon your speakers' design, construction, and capabilities as well as the volume levels you wil be attempting.

(If you have some "B" speaker outputs that represent parallel outputs
off of the same two amps as your"A" outputs, you can use these to connect both the speaker and sub to your front channels.)

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