Digital to Analog?

[Aaron N]

I need some help. A friend of mine was asking about digital to analog output to the speakers from the receiver. He was told by a sales person that a Denon receiver he was looking at converted the digital signal to analog before sending the signal to the speakers. The salesperson said that it sounded more "natural". I didn't know if this was true. Is this how most receivers send a signal to the speakers or is it a true digital signal that's sent using digital playback devices? It amazes me that the more I get into the realm of home audio the more I realize I don't know about the technical aspect of it. But I've got plenty of time to learn! Any input is appreciated.

[G Evans]

See thread on digital amps in the Two Channel

item - Is this what you are asking ?

...

Integrating digital to analog convertion (DAC) with a power amp may make economic sense but, OTOH, think of the cost/performance of a top notch CD palyer ( $2,000 ++) and a top notch amp ($3,000 +) versus proformance / cost of an intergrated unit ($?? !) .

IMHO, integration is not necessarily a significant step forward per se but class D output power amps for producing compact units should make the electronic speaker cross-over & EQ concept more attractive and cost effective obviating current passive speaker XO limitations. Where the DAC is located, as long as it is good quality like SACD, is less important and with separate units at least you've a choice what source & amp to have. Also many still use analog sources like vinyl so an analog amp input will be on demand for a long time to come.

In summary I think the G.O.F. analog amp will be around for a very long time still.

George

[dougdrake]

Aaron - If I'm reading your post correctly, that sales person was full of it (or at least was not clear in his explanation). ALL receivers/amps deliver analog signals to speakers. Speakers do not (to my knowledge although there are probably some exceptions) have DACs in them to convert the sound to an analog signal for the actual drivers to work with.

Various pre-amps/decoders/receivers use different designs for converting the digital source material (CD, DVD) to analog. Some convert all inputs (including analog such as records/tapes) to digital, process it through their soundfield or decoding processes, then convert back to analog for amplification to the speakers. Some, if given an analog input such as a record, allow you to bypass the analog-digital-analog conversion which can introduce noice, and simply pass the analog signal straight through to the amps. My Denon 3300 (and many others) have the latter capability, commonly known as "direct" mode.

More than you wanted to read, I am sure.

Doug

[Ray Garrison]

Aaron,

In almost every case, speakers are driven by an analog signal. There are VERY few speakers on the market that are designed to accept a digital input. To see what one of these things looks like, and how it works, take a look here:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/m_bro_spk.htm

How the signal on your CD or DVD gets converted into the analog signal driving your speakers varies depending on your setup. In the simplest case, you have a CD or DVD player and you connect the left and right channel analog outputs to one of the pairs of inputs on your receiver. Then you connect the speaker outputs on the receiver to the speakers. In this case, the player is using its own internal digital to analog converters, and sending an analog signal to the receiver, which amplifies that signal and sends it to the speakers.

Another approach is to have the CD or DVD player send its signal to the receiver as a digital data stream. Then, the receiver uses its internal digital to analog converters to, uh, convert the signal from digital to analog, amplifies the analog signal, and sends it out to the speakers.

Whether the first approach or the second approach sounds better depends pretty much on whether the CD/DVD player or the receiver does a better job of the digital to analog conversion step.

In either case, it's an analog signal going to the speakers.

Giving the salesperson the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he wasn't totally uninformed, what he might have been trying to say was that the digital to analog converters in the Denon were really good, and that by taking the digital signal from the player and letting the Denon's own digital to analog conversion circuitry do the job provided a more "natural" sound than using the players internal digital to analog converters and taking the analog signal from the player to the Denon. He might very well be right - Denon D/A engineering is generally thought very highly of.

Ray Garrison

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[Aaron N]

Thank you gentlemen. I thought that most recievers sent, and speakers took, analog signals only. I just wasn't sure. In regards to what Ray was saying about using the digital output from CD, DVD, is something I did with my CD player not to long ago. I used the toslink connection between my CD player and the receiver, therefore bypassing the CD player's digital to analog conversion, and it made a world of difference. Every range seemed to be clearer and more precise than before. Anyways, thank for the info. it is appreciated.

[decibel man]

Just for gigles, the MSRP's on the two models of speakers that are at the other end of Ray's Meridian link are:

DSP8000 - $45,000/pr

DSP8000C - $22,500 center

DSP6000 - $19,995/pr

DSP6000C - $10,495 center

Lets see, a 6.1 channel system could be comprised of two DSP8000's, two DSP6000's, one DSP8000C, and one DSP6000C for rear center surround. That should cost about $97,990 without the subs. I say its the best value on the market. Through in about another $25,000 for enough digital cable to wire it up and all you need is the components.

Second thought I think I'll hold on to my Klipsch system. It is tempting though.

Enjoy and happy listening!

JT

[avman]

for quite some time 'outboard' d/a converters have been sold to improve sound quality. a good rule of thumb is if your source device is high quality, use the analog out, (ie: adcom and denon, and other brands of cd players that tout their d/a converters, burr-brown dac's, etc.) AND use the 'direct' mode discussed earlier which bypasses the a/d re-conversion which many surr.sound receivers do,(then re-convert back to analog so the signal can be played on your speakers);if,however,you have better d/a converters in your receiver/pre-amp than in your source device, or if you are using a high quality outboard d/a converter, use a digital connection from the source device and let the better d/a's do the conversion process. hope this helps! avman

[Ceedog]

So what happens if you hook up both the d and the a from your dvd to your receiver?

[Ray Garrison]

Assuming that your DVD will send a signal out through both the digital and the analog at the same time ( not sure whether most do or don't...) then if you set your receiver to the digital input, you'll be listening to the receiver's D/A converter, and if you set your receiver to the analog input, you'll be listening to the DVD player's D/A converter. Depending upon the DVD player and the receiver, one might sound better than the other, they might sound a bit different but neither better nor worse, or you might not be able to hear any difference at all.

If you try this, keep in mind that the volume level from the digital input is probably going to be different than the volume level of the analog input, and the way our brains are wired the louder of the two (even if it's only a teensy weensy bit louder) will always sound better.

Ray

------------------

Music is art

Audio is engineering

[boa12]

yea like ray says. my marantz sr-8000 lets u choose between the analog or digital - a switch for it on the unit & on the remote.

the analog can sometimes be too loud & even set off the receiver's protection circuit. so they also allow for the attentuation of the input analog signal.

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[Guest BobG]

If the dvd player sends both digital and analog signals you can send the analog directly to the TV for times when you don't wish to turn on the rest of the system - say for your young kids to be able to watch movies but not be allowed to mess with your amp etc. The digital out goes to the amp for processing and on to the remainder of the a/v system for best results. Not a very common need, but the one which is proposed by Yamaha, Denon etc.

[avman]

IMPORTANT!!! you MUST make the digital connection from the dvd player to the ss receiver in order to pass the dd/dts signal to the processer in your receiver/pre amp! avman.