Which surrounds best match KLF fronts?

[lt1yw]

Hi all,

I am looking for some new surrounds for my HT and am not sure what would sound best with my KLF-20 mains and -C7 center. Would the RS-7's just sound way out of place?

What would be the best match? I dont really want -10's or another set of -20's back there, not really enough room.

I had also thought of just using a couple more -C7's.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[T2K]

For HT use, buy RS-7's.

Keith

[HornEd]

KLF-C7's will work... especially if you use three of them in the rear as a 6.1 system. The WDST approach is also valued for a big, dispersed sound bringing up the rear or, if you can find them, the wedge shaped KSP-S6's have brought audio happiness to people like Keith... particularly for old style ProLogic material.

The issue revolves around how to get the most from your system in this era of discrete multi-channel sound. Many of us prefer a full range direct radiating speaker that makes the most of good recordings in HT or music. And, the C7 is probably a closer timbre match for audio pans from back to front. The C7's are also noteworthy as sealed speakers, no room must be allowed for rear ports.

Of course, I prefer six identical speakers plus a big bass tower and a pair of C7's for front effects. Search this Forum on "surround" and your likely to find all kinds of suggestions... and some fireworks! -HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

[maxg]

As soon as I saw the question I thought - hello - HornEd territory....

Gets no arguement from me.

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My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm

[avman]

'particularly for pro-logic material'hmmm...well, even though i get dolby digital via satellite on many programs,at least half,probably more,of the shows i get are stereo, and because i don't have dpl-2,i use a variety of pro-logic called 'cinema studio ex b' more often than the other ss modes, although i have simulated multi-rear speaker capability, i don't fool around alot w/the different sound modes, and this particular one usually sounds best on stereo/video content.

keep in mind when choosing your rear surrounds how or if you are going to incorporate a center rear (either real or simulated). i beleive that an actual center rear will provide better 'diffuse'(vs.direct)sound for those using direct only radiating speakers by allowing either the receiver's processing or the studio sound mix to 'spread' the rear effects vs. my s-6's (or rs-'x')surrounds which do both-avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[T2K]

Clever,Ed. You might check sometime and learn that the S-6's are WDST speakers.If you had some,I'm quite certain you would be tooting their horn,Ed.

Come to think of it, your KLF-30's were designed/developed years prior to the KSP-S6's.They must have been designed with the 'old style' pro-logic material in mind too,huh?

Keith

[boa12]

nothin wrong w/ wdst as side/rear surrounds for prologic or DD__. especially w/ a direct rear center or 2 to tie them together.

problem is the prologic DECODING. look forward to the DPLII upgrade. will make the surrounds & rears full range.

again, prologic is not an encoding, it's a decoding process. only thing i have available (right now) for dolby stereo, dolby surround, & dolby digital/ac-3 2.0 (which are how most of the digital programs are encoded

on cable or dss service - DD(ac-3)2.0).

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My Home Systems Page

[HornEd]

Pardon my ignorance, Keith, I was led to believe that WDST technology was developed after the KSP-S6 (which has a wedge shape with a woofer and horn tweeter on each side) to incorporate a monopole woofer aimed at the sweet spot with wedge-shaped enclosures on either side for the Horn Tweeters... and I thought that was in 1999 with the RS-3.

Certainly, I agree that the KSP-S6's throw out a wide sound pattern. I heard them demonstrated in a dealer's sound room... but it was far less than ideal conditions. Now, I wished I had bought one to try in the rear of the motorhome.

BTW, the reason I associate wide dispersion speakers with Dolby ProLogic is not my distain for the speakers but, rather, my realization that the emasculated sound of ProLogic's surround channel needs all the help it can get. That also goes for inadequately mixed DVD's. "Wide Dispersion" speakers tend to fill in holes that proper DVD sound mixing (and proper speaker placement and calibration) do a good job of eliminating.

Wide dispersion speakers are great for parties because they tend to broaden the sweet spot. They have their place... I just prefer at least three discrete monopoles to get the best out of the best source materials. I've just finished reading the new book about PWK... and found no accolades for the ProLogic approach to surround sound... except perhaps the word on the yellow button in his pocket.

Hey, Keith, I am happy your solution works for you... and you have the towers the KSP-S6 was designed to support. According to the Klipsch Classic information, KLF-30's match up with KLF-C7's and nothing else. So, I too have a match... six KLF-30's and two KLF-C7's... and my solution works for me. Both approaches have their benefits and shortcomings.

You encourage your kind of solution... I encourage mine... and people pick what appeals to their ears and pocketbook... life goes on. Why the hassle? -HornED

[T2K]

Yes,I'm aware of the shape of the S-6's Ed. Here is a quote from Klipsch describing the KSP-S6's.Perhaps it will help you to be more informed in the future.

"The surrounds feature Klipsch's proprietary Wide Dispersion Surround Technology, a unique achievement in surround design that optimizes the performance of Dolby Digital,DTS,and all of today's newest digital technologies.By producing not only diffuse effects,but also the direct sounds necessary for good localization,Klipsch surrounds offer the most realistic experience this side of your local theater".

While keen on sound,I am also keen on the use of works.Words like innuendo,and derogation.

I am happy for your happiness Ed.

Keith

[HornEd]

Keith, you seem to be asking for me to speak plainly. Well, to be perfectly frank, Klipsch does not describe a KSP-S6 as a WDST speaker to the best of my knowledge... and certainly not in on the Products section. It says that the production of KSP-S6's ceased in 1999.

Here's what the current product page says about the SS-1: "The Synergy Series SS-1 180° surrounds have raised the bar and changed the way people listen to surround sound at home. As the first model ever to utilize Klipschs exclusive Wide Dispersion Surround Technology (WDST), the SS-1 showed the high performance world that rear channel audio can be more life-like. It can produce pinpointed effects as well as ambient sound, and you can have all of this along with more flexibility in room placement. Other benefits include two square Tractrix® Horns that sonically match every Synergy system, multi-way, gold-plated binding posts and simplified keyhole wall attachment slots."

You seem to be accusing me of being less than honest while making statements that sometimes don't ring true. But, that happens to all of us from time-to-time... it is a way of learning. Now if you are telling me that Klipsch officially made an error in their statement that the SS-1 was the first WDST speaker... so be it.

I think the KSP-S6 has its fine points whatever you want to call the technology. You accuse me of not understanding basic audio concepts and spreading "revolutionary" BS... and I respect your right to your opinion... but apparently you prefer not to extend me the same courtesy. And, if that's your choice, it is certainly within your prerogatives.

I try to ascertain the facts by research and experimentation. I try to give people the benefit of my research and experience. Nowhere do I claim to be able to walk on water... I just try to be a pretty good swimmer... and I have a long way to go.

I really don't know how my burr got under your saddle... and if something I said offended you personally... I apologize... for that was not my intent and must be a product of mutual misunderstanding... this Forum is much better when members are allowed to express their opinions free from personal attacks for having a different opinion... or at least that's what I thought when bullets were whizzing over my head... and they were not being fired by monopole or WDST technology.

Chill Keith there is no war. Just a slight difference of opinion for which neither of us should be fried by the other. You have helped a lot of people on this forum, me included, so I am disinclined to be drawn into these harangues... but I feel an obligation to answer questions as clearly and candidly as I am able. -HornED

[lt1yw]

Am I going to have to separate you two??

[HornEd]

Sorry, lt1yw... it is a shame that you had to use your 2nd post on free speech and goodwill to Forum members issue.

New members to the Forum deserve be accorded a warm and friendly "first thread" that is typical of most reply posts on this forum. I for one shall attempt to do so. I have no axes to grind... just audio explorations to report.

But, then again, your first post did suggest "Any" thoughts would be appreciated! LOL

Your interest in Klipsch & Peace are most welcome and needed... I trust you won't be a stranger. -HornED

PS: I trust you have checked out the comments in http://www.klipsch.com/index.asp?path=/main.asp?frame=y&id=&line=&1 which, beyond the venom, has additional insights into your situation.

Another source worth checking is Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D., the person ranked most highly by his peers in acoustics and psychoacoustics... with decades of high quality research... and a knack for "plain speaking."

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-11-2002 at 12:15 PM

[J Tanman]

It1yw,

I have the same front speakers with RS-7s as my surrounds. I listen solely to HT and 2-channel music on this system, so the multichannel music isn't really an issue. The RS-7s are great IMO for HT surrounds, they are very full sounding with good bass and the efficiency matches the KLF 20s/C7 quite well. I would love to have matching identical speakers like HornEd, but alas, I have no room to place three more huge speakers behind the couch. The direct radiating speakers are definitely a plus for multichannel music and critical placement of sounds in the rear soundstage, this is a versatile setup. But, in MY opinion for HT, I like the WDST sound better. The dispersed sound is nice, especially when outside the sweetspot. I like WDST more the dipoles because it still retains a good amount of direct sound -- best of both worlds.

[T2K]

Ed,it's four in the morning here,so I'll cut it short.

Yes,I shoot straight.I like for people to know where I'm coming from.I appreciate the same courtesy.

Words convey meaning and the use of certain words together can appear to change the meaning of a statement. Like using the words 'ROSE' and 'DOG DO' together. I believe you realize that. You did that repeatedly.I feel you used those words to advance your opinion and to detract from my opinion. Hence,the "burr".

I have a stack of Klipsch Synergy Premiere literature here on my desk that the quote was taken from. Originally the S-6's were intended for use with the KSP400's.The KSP300's utilized the KSF-S5 surrounds. The S5's used the two side-mounted horn tweets and the front woofer.Don't remeber the timeline right now,but you could check if interested.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Keith

[T2K]

lt1yw, when I originally read your post the key word(s) that I noticed were "surrounds for my HT".Hence,my suggestion.

J Tanman gave the answer your question deserved.He described the RS-7's perfectly.Diffusion with localization.Since you do not have the room for large rear speakers,the logical choice would be RS-7's.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Keith

[avman]

here are some observations i made last night that may lend perspective on how legends and wdst-in my case ksps-6's-work in environments like mine (23ft deep by 12ft wide,no 'middle' to the left side wall for 10ft)

i first put on the multi-ch.sacd sampler(maxg had mentioned sacd's recommended speaker array of 5 large direct rad's, and their relative positioning).the first song i played by james taylor,which i've heard alot,but at home only a couple of times,had so much bass(alot,but not too much)i thought the sub was on.sub output w/sacd has been an ongoing topic on another bb,so i was happy it 'was working', even happier-the klf-30's STILL surprise/impress me-when i found that it was just my 5 speakers playing! the s-6's did the 'back stuff' really well, and the 30's hammered out some nice bass.

on to: eagles-h.f.o./dts 5.1..seven bridges road is imho one of the best ways i can show someone what 5.1 means, and the 5-voices,one-per-speaker,helps judge speaker level,and overall 'synergy' of the system.it sounds GREAT!! nice sensation of being in the audience w/the 'hoots' and applause, nice localization of the 5 voices AND perfect blending of those voices at the sweet spot. i did observe that if i turned my head toward the l or r surround, the directionality of joe walsh and timmy schmidt's voices was right on, and still clearly localized when facing the front array.

last note: i've experimented w/the'phantom' ctr.ch.and on 'santana-supernatural live' dvd in dts the phantom was clearly superior to the c-7, however 'i can't tell you why'on h.f.o. definitely sounded better w/the c-7 on; i truly beleive a klf-20/30 center would be perfect. avman.

------------------

1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[HornEd]

Keith, I like your 4 a.m. approach.

I, too, prefer to be direct but I have also learned that a lot of folks can't handle it. I just got in at 3:30 a.m. from a "live" supper club music session with fini, Mdeneen, and Clipped & Shorn. C&S put the 7-piece band together to explore American Jazz to an Afro-Cuban beat. It was a wonderful night that stretched into the wee hours... and you would appreciate fini's appreciation of his KSP-400's. I think you will find that the common thread between the four of us is that we are all straight shooters and respect the right each of us have to our personal opinions.

Thanks, Keith for getting the "burr" out in the open... I thought it might be something like that.

First and foremost, I respect your right to your opinion and I believe your opinion is a sincere one... and in many ways reflects the mainstream consensus of opinion. You are one of the most prolific (and succinct) posters on this Forum... and so, when our opinions appear on surrounds they are often, coincidently, on the same threads.

My opinion is not necessarily better than yours... but it is my opinion... and it is based on the best intelligence and personal experimentation that I can muster. Since you are closer to the "popular" opinion and I am trying to illustrate the "truth" as I have found it to be... sharing what I have learned with other forum members starts with examining how "popular" opinions differ from a wider view of audio options.

Clearly, in no way should my comments be taken as a derogatory comment on the system that you enjoy.

In many of my posts over the last year I have acknowledged my respect for you as a straight shooter... as being representative of a valid approach to wide area surrounds and integrated subwoofers, and as one of the best deal finders that has ever posted on this net. Those are words of respect... and not some cheap ploy to curry favor or obtuse innuendo.

Frankly, Keith, whether you chose to accept it or not, because I hold you in high esteem, I was hurt and puzzled by your verbal abuses that suggest I have been insincere and less than honest. That's just not my style... and there are quite a few members of this Forum and some Klipsch minions that will confirm that fact.

Indeed they take me to task on the Forum and by email if they disagree with my posted opinion... and we have a peaceful dialogue from which we all learn. I have been a professional problem solver and a professional writer for most of my adult life. My participation on this Forum is intended to promote understanding and tolerance... not ridicule and derision.

There have been times when I have included you and Rolltide in good natured humor... and I came to the conclusion that you didn't see the humor of it... so I stopped. I was looking to have fun WITH you and not at your expense. I regret anything I may have posted that you saw as being in poor taste.

Having lived more than half my life in the South, I trust we can put misunderstandings aside and each continue to contribute our honest reflections without rancor toward one another. And, if you suspect that I have violated this trust in the future, please email your thoughts to me at eddennis@msn.com and you will receive as honest and courteous reply as I can muster.

I may be a blockhead but I try not to be a curmudgeon ( with NO innuendo intended! ). -HornED

[boa12]

what's to keep one from pointing one side of the S6 directly at the sweet spot & then having the other side go off the rearside/rear walls. then tied together w/ 1 or 2 directs for rear center/surrounds? just an idea

or is that what you guys are doing?

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My Home Systems Page

[HornEd]

You got it Boa... a favorite way people have used their KSP-S6's is to have the front part of the wedge catch the sweet spot and the rear part of the wedge bounce of the rear wall together to fill in the rear array... really a cost effective way to have an all around sound for most DVD's.

But, as Avman pointed out in the case of his front center vs. phantom center... some source material sounds better one way and while another is a whole different case.

Part of what I have been trying to point out is that the trend to better mixing in the future will increase the value of monopoles in the rear array... since the need to correct for mixing errors and the amount of source material will diminish in everyday listening for most folks.

Many of the great systems on this board... like Q-Man's that I just added to the "University Speaker" thread on Odds & Mods use strategically placed monopoles to provide better sound arrays than WDST can offer. Of course, while these are much more expensive solutions they should not be "put down" for being less that WDST... at least not IMHO. -HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-15-2002 at 02:32 PM