skonopa Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Okay, another little delimma. Like I mentioned earlier, I substituded my second pair of SS-1s with a pair of SB-2s for the rears. I probably should have looked at the product offerings before I did that. I did not realize that there where also SB-3s. Is it worth it for me to go ahead and take these SB-2s back and exchange them for the SB-3s for my back surrounds. What I currently have, RF-3 II for mains, RC-3 for center, KSW-12 for sub and SS-1s for surrounds. My reciever is a Denon AVR-3802. (Edit - corrected model numbers) Thanks ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". This message has been edited by skonopa on 04-19-2002 at 04:27 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 hahah!!! I knew there was something wrong with your original post... Powered Synergy speakers in the back and Reference in the front? A bit of a mismatch... I'd say save some money and go with the SB-2s. You can then buy some more DVDs. but that's just my opinion. I'm thinking that there isn't enough critical sound coming from the back to warrant expensive surrounds in a less than stellar system. That's where I'd save my money. Think about it, all sounds that come from the back are either ambience (which really doesn't require super speakers to reproduce) or quick transient sounds (like gunshots) that happen once in a while. You're not going to listen to the beach scene of Saving Private Ryan every day, are you? Plus, our hearing is so much worse for sounds coming from the rear than from the front, it doesn't warrant super precise speakers, really. my two canadian cents, worth about 1.25 cents US... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 16, 2002 Author Share Posted April 16, 2002 Seb, I do agree with you, but I decided to do it anyways for the simple fact that the SB-3s will be a much closer match to my three front speakers and they are only about 80 dollars more at the local Tweeters. I do use my system to play alot of music also - I sure did put those trusty old Infinity RS2000.5s that I had before through the wringer with some of the music I like to play . I guess I'll squash this little "upgrade bug" while it is still relatively painless. As far as getting more DVDs, yes, that'll still happen - just need to decide what I want to get (Shrek comes to mind) I thought about using RB-3s, but there really is not much difference between the SB-3s and the RB-3s. The only difference is that the RB-3s have the nicer cerametallic drivers and Monster Z-cable internal wiring. The specs of these two models are identical (94db sensitivity, 100 watts max cont, 400 max peak, 8 inch woofer, 5 inch tweeter horn). To me, the ceramatallic driver and monster z-cable wiring doesn't justify the extra 200 dollars in cost. I am certain that the RB-3s sound better than the SB-3s because of the better drivers and wiring, but my untrained ear would not be able to tell much of a difference to justify the extra 2 c-notes. P.S, I apologize for the mixup in the model numbers. For some reason, always tend to get the SPs and SBs mixed up - I guess due to the similarity in the model numbers (although very different speakers). Thanks ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 Seb's points should be well taken. And that being said, my suggestion for SB-2's were based on price and size/weight considerations. I would agree that the RB-3's are better since they are at least in the "Reference neighborhood." -HornED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 16, 2002 Author Share Posted April 16, 2002 Your point is well taken. Oh well, I ended up going with SB-3s anyway, probably against better judgement. Yeah, they only cost $100 more and yes they are a bit bigger, but I guess if it make me happy... To be honost, I am almost tempted to take back both the SS-1s and SB-3s and go all Reference 3 II. That'll add a good $400 to $500 bucks to the total cost, though. At least that'll put my whole system into the Reference line (accept the subwoofer, which is a KSW-12, but anything bigger than that would be way to much for the size of the room. ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 Do it!! I like to live vicariously through the experiences of other more fortunate (wallet-wise) people... And upgrade the sub, too. Paradigm PW-2200 babey!! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 16, 2002 Author Share Posted April 16, 2002 Alright, screw it! It'll be done this weekend (Oh the guys at Tweeters will love me now )! However, I'll keep my current sub, though - it really does work well for this room. ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 17, 2002 Author Share Posted April 17, 2002 Okay, after sleeping on it for a little while, I decided that I am just going to return the SB-3s and omit the rear surrounds for now. I can always add them later. From what I understand, there is not much source material available that really takes real advantage of that 6 (and 7th) channel, thus I can probaly live without the rear surrounds for now (and save some real $'s). I did also decide that I am going to trade up my SS-1s for a pair of RS-3s. At least that will put my system completely in the reference line (with the exception of the sub). Unfortunatly, this brings back the original question. If I am reading your suggestion right, HornED, I should stick with the SB-2s? Since it most likely won't be till next spring that I'll add those rear surrounds (and thus I'll have more money), should I go and get a pair of RB-3s when the time comes? This point, however, may very well answer the above questions. I'll admit those SB-3s did seem much larger than I originally anticipated and the SB-2s did seem to be a better fit for where I wanted to place them physically (thus I can see why 'HornED' suggested them). Just due to the physical size, I may have to rule out the RB-3s also. It can be tough sometimes to get an idea of how well a particular speaker will actually fit until I actually take a pair home and try them. I guess this is why I like to deal with an outfit that has a good return policy . One last question. In the mean time, could I get away with recycling my Infinity RS2000.5s from my old system as temporary stand-ins? I know it is not a good thing to mix brands of speakers, but hey, this would be only temporary. thanks for any and all suggestions ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". This message has been edited by skonopa on 04-17-2002 at 08:01 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 skon, u could always use just a single rc-3 for the rear center (6.1). ain't no 7.1 stuff anyway. i use a single C7 between rear cornwalls & it works great! ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I would buy ALL matching Reference,whenever I could afford them. If I were in your situation,and according to whether I was interested in using the system for music or movies or both,and according to your room set-up possibilities, I would buy for surround use either RF-3 or RB-3, and the WDST RS-3's. Wire them surrounds 'A' and 'B' on your 3802 and you can switch between the two or use them both.As boa said,I'd buy a RC-3 for 6.1 use. The 5/7 channel music should sound great! The Widescreen mode your 3802 provides is useful. You might read about that in your manual. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Boa's observation is quite valid and one that I have often made in the past. While there is an occasional 6.1 DVD made (e.g. Gladiator), by far the most benefit you will get from your rear effects speakers is 5.1 source material that has had a rear effects channel "matrixed" from "stereo" source material recorded in the surround channels. I prefer to use one better quality speaker for rear effects than two lesser quality speakers for 7.1... and expect that 6.1 is a better discrete format for most listening environments. Three rear speakers provide ample opportunity for today's audio engineers to create an infinite range of discrete AND ambient sound... even from monopole speakers. IMHO, it takes a VERY LARGE room to justify the use of a seventh speaker. In fact, I tried 7.1 (with two KLF-10's for rear effects) and elected to reconfigure my HT to 6.1 (using a single KLF-30). Thanks for calling attention to an important aspect of today's full-featured surround sound Boa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 17, 2002 Author Share Posted April 17, 2002 Thanks for your suggestions. This is what I am going to do, based on your suggestions. I'll take back the SB-3s and SS-1s and replace them with a pair of RS-3s and an RC-3. I would love to do as 'talkToKeith' suggested, by also getting a pair of R-3s as a set of 'B' surrounds, but I just simply do not have the money and space to do so right now. Given the space requirments of my room and the fact that I still use the system to watch regular TV and watch video tapes (it'll take a long time to replace with all DVD - such as that complete collection of Star Trek videos.), thus still use the ProLogic format as well as Digital Dolby/DTS, the RS-3s as surrounds should be a good setup for my needs. Perhaps in the future, I'll add that second set of surrounds as 'talkToKeith' suggested. However, just for fun and to see how well it works (plus why let a perfectly good $500 pair of speakers go to waste), I may try to hook up my Infinity RS2000.5 floor speakers from my old setup as the 'B' surrounds. This also brings up a question. How do I hook up a single RC-3 to a reciever that was meant to have two speakers in the rear. Do I 'bi-amp' the RC-3 by hooking up say the lefts to the high terminal and the rights to the low terminal on the RC-3 or do I just hook up say the left to the RC-3? I don't recall seeing anything in the manual regarding this. I'll have to go look again, but ideas from those that know more about this than I do would be helpful. # ifdef BEGIN_EDIT I went and checked the manual for my reciever and it said to hook the single speaker to the left side of the back surrounds and set the amp to "multi-zone". However, is there anything to gain by "bi-amping" the the RC-3 to both the left and right channels of the back surround? # endif // BEGIN_EDIT Again, thanks for your suggestions - this will help tremendously. P.S. - This is getting to be one expensive hobby I got myself into! And I thought skiing and RC airplanes were expensive... . ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". This message has been edited by skonopa on 04-17-2002 at 01:51 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 skoan, all you do is go into the denon speaker set-up & tell it you have only one surround effects speak. it's processor handles the rest. also i believe denon recommends that you hook a single rear effects speak only to it's surround effects/back left speaker terminals. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-17-2002 at 01:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 17, 2002 Author Share Posted April 17, 2002 Thanks, `boa12`. As my recent edit to my post indicates, I found in the manual where it said to hook the single speaker to the left channel for the back surrounds. Again, thanks for all your suggestions, espcially those of `HornED`. Now I feel more comfortable that I am doing the 'Right Thing' and not wasting money on sub-par and/or needless speakers. (Thank god for the local Tweeters liberal return policy . PS - off topic, I noticd there is another Klipsch dealer that just opened in my area (right near my place)! I'll have to see if he/they got any of the Heritage series - I'd love to hear what some of those speakers, especially a pair of Klipschorns sound like. Thanks ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 uh-oh... ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 sko, if you used RB-3's for surround 'A' and RS-3's for surround 'B', you could use the WDST speakers for HT and the monopole RB-3's for multi-channel music, or ALL for either/both.YOUR choice.The 5/7 channel music is great with the Denon,and something you will surely become interested in later.The mistake in your mismatched speakers will become more apparent then. That is basically what I do with my set-up.Consult the manual.It will become clearer to you with time that your receiver has a multitude of options. You might temporarily use your Infinity's in place of the RB-3/RF-3 until the time you decide whether or not you wanted RB-3/RF-3's.The RC-3 rear could wait too. My suggestions are based on my personal use and good common sense and not something I read elsewhere that I type verbatum here.To heck with the small cost difference.As you use and become accoustomed to the sound of your equipment the difference in sound will become more apparent to you and will eat at you until such time that you then go and spend the dollars on the speakers you should have bought in the first place and thus,the first expenditure was wasteful.You've saved nothing. As far as the RB-3/RF-3 difference goes,if you buy RF-3's and cut them small,what have you accomplished? Check the specs for your answer. Read your Denon manual and go to your dealer and listen to speakers.Decide for yourself what you want based on your preferences and situation and buy accordingly when you can afford them. And, good luck! Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Wow, Skonopa, you are going through quite a learning curve... just think of the time and money you are saving by doing within the return policy limits. Realizing that space and dollar constraints are very real concerns, I have tried to offer advice from that perspective. While, IMHO, the ideal is six identical speakers... getting all the speakers that should match in the same Reference family is a big step forward. Subwoofers are a special case since they are designed to fill in the sounds below the other speakers... and, therefore, do not have the same tone and timbre conflicts. With an adequate subwoofer, the rest of your speakers will actually improve their performance when set on "SMALL" as recommended by the consensus of experts lead by the world's leading authority on acoustics and psychoacoustics Dr. Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D. (as recommended to me on this Forum by BobG). Most late model receivers translate 5.1 recordings into 6.1 (or more) sound. Thus, you will get good use out of your rear effects speaker on all 5.1 source material... even though it was not originally recorded in 6.1. So, you and your family are in for an extra dimension in audio enjoyment... and that's what HT is all about. I have tried to make my comments based on solid audio engineering facts as validated by personal observation... but in the end, the acoustic properties of your listening space and your personal audio preferences will make the critical difference. Take your pick and enjoy it for a while! -HornED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 ed, i've yet to read toole, but does he have some deal with thx? iow, does he endorse an 80hz or higher crossover for all size speakers? or is he more general than that? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted April 17, 2002 Author Share Posted April 17, 2002 Keith, I fully understand what you are talking about, but as of right now, I just simply could not afford getting an extra set of R-3s right now. But that is something I am definitly interested in checking out. I knew my Denon was capable of running dual sets of surrounds with the capability to switch between them or run them together. That is why I may try it out with my Infinity towers in the mean time. However, I CAN afford trading in the SS-1s and SB-3s for the RS-3s and RC-3. That will only amount to about a $100 or so additional to what I currently have spent, but that will yield much better speakers, not to mention they will be all matched. That would be stupid for me not to make the exchange and would result in a waste of money as you suggested in the paragraph I quoted below. You quote: "My suggestions are based on my personal use and good common sense and not something I read elsewhere that I type verbatum here.To heck with the small cost difference.As you use and become accoustomed to the sound of your equipment the difference in sound will become more apparent to you and will eat at you until such time that you then go and spend the dollars on the speakers you should have bought in the first place and thus,the first expenditure was wasteful.You've saved nothing." That is why I went to this forum to ask and get suggestion to find out if I made the right choice. After reading several postings, I realize that I made a mistake getting the SS-1s and SB-3s for my surrounds. Fortunatly, it is still with in the return policy of the store where I bought them (Tweeters), thus I can go and exchange them for speakers I should have gotten in the first place. That exchange will happen tommorrow after work. After I make the exchange, I'll have the following speakers in my system: RF-3 mains RC-3 center RS-3 surrounds RC-3 rear KSW-12 sub Given my budget and the suggestions I have gotten on this board, this system will be perfect for my room, which is only about 14 x 14 feet. I am aware that your suggestions as well as those of HornED and others, such as Boa12 are coming from a voice of experience. HornEd, is the KSW-12 that I have considered "adequate" for this size of room? Unfortunatly, I just simply cannot afford a bigger/better sub right now even as much as I would like to have one. However, I do like how this one sounds, but I'll admit that the RSW-10 or 12 sure would be nice. I guess I can try as you suggested and cut all the speakers small and see how it sounds. Unfortunatly, the Denon AVR3802's LFE crossover only goes down to 80hz - would be nice if it could go down to 60. Tweeters does have a 1 year speaker upgrade policy, thus perhaps, I can trade the sub up later if what I have now is not considered "adequate". Now, I have a larger (14 x 18 feet) very nicely finished room down in the basement with panelled walls, nice deep plush carpet and a huge closet that I may consider moving my home theater to. If I do that, the system I have should be adequate, but I'll probaly will have to spring for a larger sub. Again, I want to thank all of you for your suggestions. Yes, this is turning out to be quite a learning curve for me! ------------------ Steven Konopa Fredericksburg, VA Another proud member of the "Klipsch Klub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Boa, here is a link to a compendium of Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D., lectures that cover the highlights that show why Dr. Toole is so highly thought of by industry pros across the board. You will need Adobe's Acrobat since this link is to .pdf files complete with lots of illustrations... http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default It is interesting that you mentioned THX for the CES conference in 2000 featured a keynote address by Dr. Toole. After completing his presentation, Dr. Toole enjoyed a colleagial exchange with Laurence Fincham, who replaced Tom Holman at the helm of Lucasfilm Ltd's THX Division. Dr. Toole makes short work of "bad science" (which he calls "BS"... shades of PWK) approach to sound... many of these BS approaches include familiar concepts that are often attributed to common sense. It is interesting that when I paraphrased Dr. Toole, some dissenters labeled his concepts as "BS" in the PWK sense. I think you will like his easy to understand style in handling complicated acoustics issues. After decades of working for the Canadian government in acoustics and psychoacoustics, Dr. Toole accepted a couple of high level executive positions with Harmon Industries... which means that he is the authority behind JBL, Infinity, and Harmon Kardon offerings. Before I returned to the Klipsch Sound, my HT featured all Infinity products influenced by Dr. Toole's approach. His concepts make sense and work for me... but I prefer the "live" sound of Klipsch in my listening areas. Of course, JBL is the big horn in the professional theater world... a market where Klipsch is also recognized as a force to be reckoned with. So, I think you will find that Dr. Toole's comments and concepts fit very nicely with our horn loaded Klipsch environments. -HornED This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-18-2002 at 08:32 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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