boa12 Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 hopefully this one for the digital experts is simple. can a player sample at 96k a disk that's recorded in 48k? iow, is the bit rate higher if the dacs are 96/24 & the recording is 48/24, than for a 48/24 recording using 48/24 dacs because the player is sampling at a higher rate itself? or does the player dacs conform to sample at the same rate as the recording/ ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-22-2002 at 11:24 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 sliding out on a limb here, based on my experience, the dac's will sample at the rate of the recorded media, up to the dac's capability. i don't beleive they 'up-sample'. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire Natuzzi red leather furniture set KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 thanks av. is upsample the same as oversample? when i use my analog from the dvd-video player, my b&k shows a 96k sampling rate & "96/24" no matter what the disk is recorded at. so assume the b&k pro is just picking the info up from the player's dacs - not from the recording. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-22-2002 at 02:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 ...so maybe the disc player is 'over-sampling' the disc after all? then the b&k is displaying that incoming data. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire Natuzzi red leather furniture set KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 yea av all i know is that the b&k shows the dacs of the sony is 96k sr. so whether that's just the sony's capability or what it's actually doing i don't know. i even if it's oversampling, doubt though it's doing much to improve that sound of say a pcm cd recorded at 44.1k sr. seems to sound better though - those higher highs that we can't hear. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 yeah, the dog's must luv it! avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 The difference between "upsampling" and "oversampling" is largely in the mind of the marketing department - there is no technical definition that is universally applicable. For a good, uh, sermon on what "upsampling" vs "oversampling" is, from people who ought to know, try the DCS website at: http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/ In a nutshell, "oversampling" usually means that the digital data is being read at an integral multiple of the base sampling rate (that is, each word is read two time or four times): for a CD, this would be about 88kHz, 176kHz, etc. For a DVD or other 48 kHz sampled source, it would be 96kHz, 192kHz, etc. Thus, if the original datastream looked like A B C B A you'd get aaaa bbbb cccc bbbb aaaa if it was oversampled four times. The advantage of this is that you can use a filter to suppres the high end artifacts caused by "aliasing" the signal that is much more gentle that the filter you need with a non-oversampled signal. You're not adding any new information - you're just using kinder, gentler filters to recover the information. "Upsampling" is used by some folks to mean that in addition to reading each sample multiple times, you're using a digital widget to add addition bits of random dither to each word. Typically, an "upsampling" CD player might convert a 44kHz 16 bit signal to an 88kHz or 176kHz 24 bit signal. The additional 8 bits of random dither, uh, do stuff. Go read the DCS sight. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System This message has been edited by Ray Garrison on 05-22-2002 at 03:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 ray, so should 96/24 dacs make for higher frequencies in audio than a 48k sr digital connection even w/ things recorded at lower sampling rates, say 48k? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 thanks-ray. i was looking for you to chime in on this one. avman. This message has been edited by avman on 05-22-2002 at 04:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Hmm, seems odd that the B&K can tell anything about the Sony at all, using the analog outputs from the Sony. I'm guessing that the B&K can only display info that it derives from a digital source, based on its decoding of the bitstream. Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 doug, i called a b&k techie earlier & he said it does pick-up the dac info from the player in analog, though he could be wrong. could be maybe when there's any signal & it's not a digital, it defaults to analog, but that doesn't explain the 96k sr & "96/24" display. guess i'd have to try a lower dac player to find out for sure. i've noticed when i have it switched to video & i change the channel from a digital to analog only one it does light up the "analog" light so it does sense the signal apparently as analog. these pre/pros almost give me too much info. didn't know any tv programs in dolby had this "dialogue normalization" & that everything over a digital connection was limited to max 48k sampling rate until i got this. then i have to go find out what it all means. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 boa12, "...ray, so should 96/24 dacs make for higher frequencies in audio than a 48k sr digital connection even w/ things recorded at lower sampling rates, say 48k?" Yes and no. Will it add, reveal, infer, interpolate or in any way extend the high frequency SIGNAL contained on the original recording? No. The original signal, if rolled off at, say, 22kHz, will not be extended past that frequency by any form of upsampling or oversampling. Note that there are some other products on the market that DO claim to add additional information back into the signal by "looking at" the signal as captured by the A/D process and "inferring" what other data WAS there that got cut off by the recording process, but these have nothing to do with oversampling or upsampling. However, there might be some NOISE present at higher frequencies when using the 96/24 DACs, noise created by the noise-shipfting algorythms used by oversampling players, and I am beginning to believe that adding some random noise to a signal does some very interesting things that our ears and brain interpert in unexpected, and frequently beneficial, ways. The biggest difference between higher sampling rates and non-oversampled , IMHO, is almost entirely, and perhaps ENTIRELY, due to the different high frequency (low pass) filters that a higher sampling rate allows you to use. Again, you're not ADDING anything to the signal that wasn't already there, you're just not messing it up as much when you recover it. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 thanks ray! hard to tell w/ the higher sampling rates cause i'm using 2 dif sets of dacs - the player for analog & the b&k for digital. when i run the pcm stereo in 6 channel stereo it even goes player dacs - b&k adcs-dacs. doesn't seem to lose any sound quality though. i really can't say the analog sounds better than digital - just wanted to see the b&k actually pick up that higher SR. as for the SR display on the b&k, i'm almost sure the analogs from the player must send the b&k some digital info. not for sound - just from it's dacs that telss the b&k what dacs are hooked into it. when i switch the digital out in the player, the b&k immmediately goes from 48K SR to 96k SR, & lights up analog & "96/24". this dac info must be getting picked up by the b&k over it's line outs to the dvd analog inputs (no?). ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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