DTS -ES Discrete 6.1 and DVDs

[m00n]

In order to utilize DTS-ES 6.1 Descrete, does a DVD have to be mixed for that, or is it simply any DVD with DTS will have this ability?

Reason I am asking is because I want to add a rear channel, but does it make since? My receiver supports both DTS-ES 6.1 Descrete and Matrix. If a DVD has to be mixed to support it, are there very many DVDs that even have this?

Is this technology doing well in the industry?

Thanks

m00n

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m00nsCinema to be

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

TV: Samsung 27" Flatscreen

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[boa12]

moon, yes they do have to be mixed/formatted in es 6.1 discrete which is the only home format so far to have a true discrete rear center channel. you're a syep ahead of me there w/ your receiver because i'm still waiting for the pre/pro dsp upgrade to be able to do it.

here's the complete dts list w/ a single diamond denotation for es discrete. still somewhat limited for discrete, but i noticed "the haunting (the 1st to offer it), "chicken run" & "gladiator" among others.

http://www.dtsonline.com/home/dvd.pdf

double diamonds indicate es matrix & the rest are normal dts 5.1.

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[m00n]

hehe, chicken run. I have that on VCR. Somehow I just don't think I will bother to buy that on DVD.

Anyway, thanks boa12

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m00nsCinema to be

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[boa12]

also see "seven" is es discrete. that's a good, spooky

one but i've yet to hear that on dvd - only on digital cable (encore) in DD 5.1 so far but that sounded pretty good. "gladitor" would be my 1st choice for the es discrete choices available.

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[m00n]

By the way, is this a rather new format for DTS? I am suprised that there are not more movies with 6.1.

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m00nsCinema to be

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[m00n]

Gladiator would be good.

So, I am sitting here thinking about this. With such a small selection of movies with this format, seems to me that a rear channel would almost be a waste of money at this time. Yes?

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m00nsCinema to be

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[boa12]

moon, looks like 8/29/00 es discrete release of "the haunting" was the 1st in that format. it was originally released in DD 5.1 i believe in '89.

http://www.dvdanswerman.com/dvd/hauntingdts.html

i think the rear center(s) is still great & really enhances the experience, even w/ ex or es matrix.

also even w/ 5.1, dolby surround, or stereo your processor will still do the matrixing itself & create sound coming from the rear center.

so even if its not discrete, you still fill in the gap &/or anchor the surround sound in/to the rear center of the room.

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[boa12]

as for the availability, we need to prod the industry for more dts, es matrixed & discrete releases. when i first got into digital 5.1 in '00 i couldn't find anything at the store even in dts 5.1. finally found "the jackel" in dts at the klipsch dealer & bot it.

so they've come a long way just to get more dts 5.1 out there. my "private ryan" is on DD 5.1. couldn't find the dts version anywhere in '00. but that was before i started going to the net for my dvd buys.

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[mkl]

I really enjoy having a rear surrounds. Any DTS movie can utilize the matrixed rear surrounds, so any DTS movie can be made to play from all speakers. Same with Dolby EX. So basically, any dvd in your library in dts or DD will utilize the rear channel. I think its neat for a lot of movies, nothing ground breaking, but it fills in the gap of sound behind the listening area for me.

-mkl

[m00n]

Excellent news, glad to hear that if I went with a rear channel sometime soon it would not sit there and collect dust.

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m00nsCinema to be

the m00n system

FRONTS: RF-7

CENTER: RC-7

SURROUNDS: RS-7

SUB: RSW-12

RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520

DVD: Toshiba SD 3205 (DD, DTS)

VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector

COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1

c>Microsoft XBOXc>

f>

[edwardre]

Moon - I'm at that same point.....seems like all indications are that the rear center (or 2) fills a void that quite honestly I didn't realize was a void until I read so.

Not sure if this question got answered completely but here's my semi-understanding: You get 6 (+ subwoofer) discrete channels with both DD-EX and DTS-ES, provided of course you have the proper receiver. But when listening to standard 5.1 mixes of either DD or DTS, the rear channel is then a 'matrix' of both LR and RR? I seem to recall seeing instructions to the effect that you have to select '6.1/7.1 surround' on my receiver (Denon 3802). Would this then negate the DTS/DD5.1 in favor of just another flavor of analog pro logic? Or do the '5' channels remain in their format as discrete channels and just the rear center is an 'analog' channel?

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Ed

[boa12]

ed, only those in dts 6.1 discrete are true 6.1 discrete channels (like "the haunting" in the above dts dvd list link).

those in dts es matrix or dolby ex have 5.1 discrete channels, & the rear center channel is matrixed. but the rear channel info is matrixed by the mixer & bundled on the surround channels. so it should be more dynamic as the dsp in the receiver/prepro simply decodes this info off the disk & sends to rear speaker(s).

for regular 5.1 material, the processor should do the work for rear center. that is like is done for the front center in prologic, it takes the mono info from the surround channels & puts it out also to the rear center. from what i know or guess anyway.

actually for stereo material w/ prologic processing, you should still get output from the rear center. that is the mono info from the 2 stereo channels. i do w. my dsp anyway.

w/ my dsp it works automatically when i have 6 speakers & sub chosen for all input devices. should be the same for the denon as you set up each input to the speakers you want to use for it. then the dsp/decoder works off the bitstream/format it gets sent to decode/process accordingly. sure somebody w/ a similar denon could say for sure.

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My Home Systems Page

[edwardre]

Thanks Boa....what you say makes sense. So....if I hear you correctly, standard DD5.1 as well as standard DTS, will yield a 'blend' of discreet and matrixed....in other words, are you saying that the digital discreet signals will not be degraded to a 'pro logic' type signal in order to create the matrixed center rear, but rather will stay digitally intact and then a 6th channel created 'artificially' from both rears is added? If so, it would appear that in some cases, done right, this would probably be a positive. But on the other hand, wouldn't this potentially 'pollute' the accuracy of the discrete rears....leaving it up to one's individual decoder to decide what should be routes through the rear center?

In your experience, has this 'interpretation' via the receiver's decoder logic been relatively accurate? Or have you heard anomalous sounds emanating from the rear center?

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Ed

[boa12]

ed, i'm doing some educated guessing, but the matrixed rear center would be full range, just that for 5.1 it only contains the nondirectional sound from the discrete SR & SL channels. iow, i would think it would be the mono from them, just as prologic decoding does w/ 2.0 or dolby surround material for the front center from the 2 discrete L&R channels.

dts es 6.1 discrete format material & decoding is obviously totally different from matrixing. it has a discrete rear center channel encoded & decoded.

maybe your denon manual explains how it does processing

for the rear center channel. know my b&k takes the mono info from SR & SL & puts it in rear center for 5.1. for stereo or prologic surround processing, it takes the nondirectional or mono info from whatever is being sent to the surrounds & puts out to rear center.

iow, matrixing, whether encoded by the mixer in es matrix or ex, or done by the processor as w/ stereo or DD 2.0 in the surround mode, involves taking mono info,

or that common to the info being sent to both surround speaks, & puts it out in the rear center. that's what i figure or have heard anyway.

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My Home Systems Page

[edwardre]

Thanks Boa...

Moon...I setup my rear center yesterday. As usual, you may take Boa at his word.....even if the mix is not of the 6.1 variety, the center channel solidifies the whole of the rear sound field. It's great! Don't know how I got by so far without it. Would probably have gone for 2 back speakers rather than one center, but with Cornwalls I simply don't have the room.

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Ed

[boa12]

ed, hey your welcome cornwall surround brother.

i'm using another c7 for rear center. what are you using again?

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My Home Systems Page

[edwardre]

Boa....for the center rear, I've quite a contraption going on. The short answer is it's a Belle. Here's the long answer....

Up front center, I have a Belle. It's modified in that I've replaced the Klipsch K500 'straighthorn' in favor of an Altec 511B to 'enrichen' the soundstage. The University SAHF is the driver. I've replaced the K33E with a Stephens Trusonic 103LX2 and the K77 with a University 4401 initially, but I've recently replaced that with a very melodic vintage Jensen RP302 to see how I like that sound. The network is the older AA with the oil filled caps and all 'enhancements' are 100% reversible to stock.

So for the rear center, I wanted to do pretty much the same thing to keep in line tonally. But this time, I wanted to fabricate the pieces myself as I consider myself to be fairly adept at woodwork and I have all the drivers. The 'challenge' for me is the fact that sitting rear center is my InFocus 350 front projector. My decision was to make a Belle bass bin as the foundation for my rear center 'assemblege'. The Belle bass bin is the perfect height for the projector to project from to avoid 'keystoning'. Previously, the projector was up about a foot higher in order to shoot over the top of the couch. This created a situation where I had to raise the rear of the projector to get the image on the screen properly, which led to keystoning....the trapezoidal effect of a 'non-level' projected image. Keystoning also creates a negative effect in that by nature, the top or bottom of the image is 'closer' by an inch or two to the projector, which means that either the top or bottom will always be slightly out of focus....not cool.

My driver of choice for the bass box was yet another Stephens Trusonic. The box itself, while visually looking like a Belle base, is actually 3/4" larger all around as I've actually encased the original Belle bin in another 3/4" outer skin, masked up front with slightly larger grilles to eliminate the 'double wall' look. I also filled the base with cement. The reason for this was to create a rock solid bass unit that during heavy bass passages, will not vibrate perceptably and thus, vibrate the projector sitting atop. Increased bass performance as a result of this heavy gusseting is just 'frosting on the cake'.

On top of the Belle style bass bin is the projector housing. This 6" tall 'box' (two sides and a top) serves several purposes. First and foremost, it hides the projector as well as protects it. The projector is recessed almost a full foot back from the front of the cabinetry. The second purpose is to reduce the projector fan noise and heat emmision to almost nil. It is a sealed box, insulated with the type of sound and heat dampening material used in automobile firewalls and floors. Lest heat build up inside and compromise the lamp or electronic circuitry, I've vented this box out, down the back, then out through the exterior wall of the house with a whisper-quiet squirrelcage fan that is physically outside pulling air. The third purpose of the projector housing is for screen masking purposes. The front of the box is tooled to accept one of 3 different 'masks'. Each 'mask' represents one of the three most utilyzed aspect ratios, 1.33, 1.85, or 2.35. The 'masks' are made of 1/8" wood, the type of stuff you'd re-skin a door with, each with a rectangular hole that corresponds precisely with the aspect ratio currently being viewed. The LP350's only drawback is it's excessive 'light splash'. This comes from 2 sources...first, it's a 'full screen' DLP rather than a 16:9 DLP so anytime you're watching widescreen, the top and bottom are 'light gray'. This over/under the picture brightness reduces contrast as it has the same effect as shining a flashlight at the edge of the image. Second, the front of the projector has vent slats that emit considerable light which increase ambient room light and further reduce picture contrast. Both these issues are resolved effectively with the masks. The whole projector box itself is attached to the Belle style bass bin via a piano hinge that is hidden visually. This 'fliptop' allows me to make fine manual adjustments to the projector easily.

The 'third floor' of the center rear is the rest of the speaker. Housed in an upper cavity that is identical to the upper cavity of a factory made Belle in appearence, it actually houses the same '50's vintage components as does my front center....511b with SAHF driver and a Jensen RP302. The network is likewise the older AA.

So there you have it. Really, it looks like a traditional Belle with a 6" addition seperating the top and bottom rather than the 1" collar seperation. I'm still evaluating the RP302. It is very sweet sounding....all the musical qualities of the 4401, but extends considerably farther than the 15K or so that the 4401 starts to attenuate at without taking on the strident 'scratchiness' sound of the K77. It is a sweet-tweet. Same impedence. Same efficiency. Round 'mini salad bowl' horn. I would suspect that it is very similar to the high-end University offering of that era...the HF-206.

You're probably sorry you asked, eh?

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Ed

[boa12]

thanks ed. yes that pretty much covers it.

berry interesting.

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