George2002 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 I was hoping someone could help me understand why the sub just don't sound as good double filtered. Let me give you a idea how I set things up. I had this sub for almost 4 years and it never really sounded good with music and I think this is why. Ok I have a onkyo 545 reciver witch is digital ready with no real bass management other then subwoofer yes-no with a sub-out on the back Onkyo uses 80Hz to this sub out at all times. so with sub out to sub in on the sub I was getting from 80Hz and down to the sub I was told to just turn up the low pass on the sub all the way and it Still never sounded right to me with music. What I would like to know is the technical reason why it don't sound right, because of having the sound pass through two lowpass filters? Yes I did try the Y adaptor to the line input from the sub output on the reciver that gave me a few more db in sound output but with no better sound quality. I don't have line level outputs on this reciver or I would have tryed it too. I finely decided to hook up the sub with the speaker level input on the sub and it sounds much better to me more musical more rounded sound.Why? Thanks George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 george, its a common bass quality problem that could be easily solved if more receivers had an adjustable crossover in their dsp when using big non-thx style speakers. my guess is you were setting the mains large. w/ this both the mains & the sub, in different locations, are overlapping in the same broad lower freq range & creating those standing waves for poor quality, usually muddy, bass. do you have the mains now hooked thru the sub or in parallel around the sub? if you have the mains hooked to/thru the sub then beware that the sub has a high pass filter that starts cutting the speaks low output at around 80-100hz on down. so if you're doing this you may as well just set the mains (all speaks) small & go back to the line level sub hookup from the sub out. that's the way most have found works for best bass & lfe, even w/ large type speaks, set 'em small. ideal would be to have an adjustable crossover on the dsp (both hi & lo pass) that lets one dial down more in line w/ the big speaks, like in the 40-55hz range. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George2002 Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 boa12, Thanks for the reply! My onkyo is a digital ready reciver with no real bass management other then subwoofer yes-no and volume for the sub out.Mains and rear always full range and sub out is fixed 80Hz It's a sourround sound reciver put out just before 5.1 came out but does have 1.5 multi channel input. My DVD player has a inboard dsp that does all the processing ( I set it up everything to small. The hookup I'm running now is main speakers hooked to the reviver *speakers are large bookshelf that can handle 45 to 50Hz with ease* Sub hooked up with high level in from the reciver speaker out's and low pass on sub set to about 60Hz. I also tryed it with the mains coming off the sub high level out both ways sound good to me hard to decide but think I like full range going to the mains. With this older reciver it's hard to get both music and H/T to sound good. But when I was using the sub out on the reviver it almost sounded like I was halfing the lows from what the dial on the sub was saying they sounded weak,thin and I could not get a good match with what ever I did or adjusted and didn't understand why.George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 "Mains and rear always full range and sub out is fixed 80Hz" that's the thing there. best way then would be probably like you're now doing - both fronts & sub running parallel off your receiver front speaker terminals. don't know what you mean by "high level" though. set sub: no to turn off the sub preout you're not using. then the low pass on the ksw should get things to jive ok w/ the full-range speakers. & when/if you go to get a new receiver or pre/pro, make sure it has an adjustable crossover in its dsp down to 40-60hz to compensate for big speakers. like the higher up denons & b&k receivers now do. upgradability is a big plus too. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 "My DVD player has a inboard dsp that does all the processing ( I set it up everything to small. " If I'm reading your description right, you are using the analog outputs from your DVD player into the 5.1 pre-amp inputs on your Onkyo, and your DVD player is set to small on the speakers. Thus, your DVD player is funneling all lower bass (below 80hz) to the sub output on the DVD if you said Sub-yes in your DVD player. "Sub hooked up with high level in from the reciver speaker out's and low pass on sub set to about 60Hz." If you said Sub-Yes on your DVD player, then all sub-80hz bass from all channels is going in to your sub channel pre-amp input on the Onkyo. Yet, having the sub hooked up to high-level outputs on the receiver means it's not getting any sub-80hz bass because that's being sent to the sub pre-amp on the receiver. I guess I'd do what Boa says. Say sub "no" in your DVD player AND the Onkyo, fronts large, everything else small, and feed full range signal out the main speaker jacks of the Onkyo. Then, either hook the sub in parallel to the mains on those outputs (no filtering to the mains this way) or hook the mains to the sub high-level outputs and use the sub crossover to blend and filter the bass going to the mains (at about 60hz, for starters). This will give you the easiest control over your system for both HT and music, IMHO. DD ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George2002 Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 Boa12, Yep you got it right how I have things set up that is. What I ment by hi level inputs was just what you thought it was. I should have said speaker level inputs.I am thinking on a receiver upgrade. dougdrake,Yep you got it! And I did pick no to sub in my DVD player setup so all the lows will go to my sub from all channels. I'll try seting my mains to large for the hec of it and see what it sounds like. A big thank you to you both!!! Just one more question so I understand whats been bugging me for some time. Lets say I have a low pass filter a choke if you will. Say that filter is made to filtering out all bass above 100Hz and I was to hook up another filter of the same value in series to the first one could you tell me what effect this would have on the circuit? Then the same set up but with the filters hooked up in parallel what does it do to the circuit ( sound if you will ). I think I will understand much better if I know this. Thanks again! George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 george, since one has to come before the other you get filtering of filtered output. i avoid it myself (my sub has a x-over out switch), but if 2 filters are set close to each other you can get cascading or poor sound quality. i'd just avoid using 2 filters. in your case if you set a center to small which uses an 80hz fixed in the dvdp to the sub, then have the sub at like 50hz or lower, they should be far enough apart to not create a problem. you may want to try a net search for cascading crossover or audio, filter or such for some more in depth info. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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