m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Damn... The horse wasn't dead. I must beat it some more. To catch you up on receient events of mine. I have purchased a rear channel. RC7. I have purchased a sepparate amp to push that. A Harman Kardon PA4000. Now, because I have a long room that can support at least 2 rows of seats, I want to add an addition set of side surrounds for a total of 4 side surrounds. What I had asked Boa in the past is how how an additional set of RS7s work considering they are WDSP or shall I say spray at 180 degrees. He seemed to think they would sound OK together but that a pair of RC7s would be better. If the first thought that comes to your mind is that fact that indeed there is 180 degrees of spray, and that perhaps the sound would be affected by having 2 RS7s on each side, let me complicate this a bit. I plan on staggering the height of the surrounds. The bottom of the rear SIDE (not to be confused with my rear channel ) surround would be about 2 inches higher than the top of the front side surround. Thus, my thought on that is that the sound would not be colliding with each other because the sound sprays would be at different elevations so to speak. Another though about running 4 RS7s as SIDE surrounds was to rather than have them mounted horizontal as intended, how about flipping and mounting them verticle? That would eliminate a lot of munge of sound between the to side surrounds right? Now, another option which is much more costly is the one the Boa suggested which was to run as a second set of side surrounds is RC7s. If I went that route, would the cost increase be worth the difference in sound? I have even highly considered running 4 RC7s as my surrounds, but damn, thats a lot of dead presidents. Plus, what to do with my existing RS7s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandern Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 m00n, I'm starting to think you have to much money in your pocket to burn. Send some my way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 ---------------- On 10/2/2002 11:37:44 AM zandern wrote: m00n, I'm starting to think you have to much money in your pocket to burn. Send some my way. ---------------- One might think that. But tis not true. Dipping into savings that I should not be dipping into Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Moon, here is my quick take on the situation. WDST speakers are primarily good for solving awkward speaker location problems due to room acoustics. They spray sound waves over about 2KHz to provide a blanket of background sound. They tend to eliminate the benefits of timbre matching speakers and mask sound directionality. Yes, you do get immersed in ambient sound... and to some folks, that's where it's at! I'm just not one of those folks. Since they are primarily used to spray midrange and higher sound, they are usually much smaller than main speakers... and sound like it. Given the size room that you have for an HT and its probable clean acoustics set, I would prefer the timbre matching dynamics and full-throated potential of six to eight floor-standing speakers set to small and an adequate bass complement to bring it up to Dolby minimum standard for commercial theaters... 121.5dB... which gives you the potential to hear all the sound imbedded in a Dolby DVD. Sorry, but one RSW-15 can't make that leap. Commercial theaters will sometimes put multiple wide-dispersion speakers along the side walls to accommodate more patrons... not because it provides ideal sound. Again, wide-dispersion side units are great for solving acoustics problems rather than providing a maximum sound experience. For the record, I come by my bias first hand through testing as well as through research. In setting up a room, I consider the angles at which the speakers radiate sound and be sure that that "cone of sound" covers where my audience is likely to be. Thus, sometimes I have used multiple side and rear speakers to be sure that the sound coverage not only fits multiple rows of seats... but also a more informal seating arrangement that can facilitate casual conversation and music listening... rather than just a theater. Turning your wide dispersion side/surrounds sidewise will cut down some of the dispersion pattern, but the odds are they will spray enough sound to diminish directionality intended by those who made the movie... and erode much of the benefits of any timbre matching you may have done. The key issue is that if your ears perceive a sound from a certain direction without receiving an echo within a fraction of a second, than directionality is established in your brain and you perceive where the sound is coming from. Wide dispersion speakers spray sound in so many directions that echoes off the walls bombard your ears and there is not a sufficient delay to establish directionality... and, thus, ambient sound is created. In most modern DVD mixes, the sound that is to be ambient is directed toward multiple speakers so that it will arrive at your ears and cancel out directionality EVEN IF ALL SPEAKERS ARE MONOPOLE! This flood upon your ears also tends to mask the unique tonal character (timbre) of your featured speakers. That's why you rarely see Klipschorns and WDST speakers working in the same HT. Simply put, it is all a matter of audio taste... and while there is accountability in many things... who your daughter will marry, what a jury will say... and what kind of audio you would prefer (based on sound criteria alone) is, at best, a moot point. Center channel speakers make good surround and front effects speakers due to their designed in clarity (most dialogue is channeled through center speakers)and they have at least some attempt at timbre matching the mains. Although frankly, it takes a main to match a main (or even come close) when it comes to timbre. A center speaker such as an RC-7 has two woofers and one is tapered off when sounds in the vocal range are played through it. Such tapered array is not likely to be addressed when a center speaker is placed on the sides or rear of your theater. Again, the most important speaker in HT is the front center channel. Anything less that one that is identical to your mains is a major shortfall in planning a Home Theater. I'll try to say a bit more if I get time next week. It is good to see that you are still asking good questions. -HornED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 just to clarify , my main point was that the best way to find out what sounds best to you is to hook up w/ the dealer & experiment w/ some dif speaks for side surround. hear what sounds best to you in reality, not on paper. ed has a good point. rc-7 are designed more as a center rather than a side surround. how they sound exactly as surrounds in your room is hard to tell w/o hearing them there. i was dealing w/ the 2 sets of side-surround vs 1 set. for 1 set, rs-7 wdst may be best to you & all that's needed. if its a pretty long room maybe even 2 sets of rs-7. or then maybe two set of directs like rb-5 like in the movie houses. its just impossible to say for sure for you. hook up w/ dealer & experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 HornEd... I thank you very much I can always count on you to give me an answer that is full of detail, explanation and always WAY over my head . I am going to have to read your post several times before I get the full gist of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Boa, i agree the best thing is to try different speakers, but my dealers don't seem to be too keen on that kind of thing. You buy, you take, you keep. Also, the "What sounds good to you in your environment" still frustrates me. Coming from a software engineers standpoint, everything is either 1 or 0, true/false on/off, ya know absolute answers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 HornED/Boa So I just went outside had a ciggy and thought about what was being said. I though about how a public theater sounds. What I like about it. I like that when I hear a surround sound, I can tell that it is coming from way over there along the wall, yet, what is missing would be some ambiance. So this got me thinking about what you said in regards to flipping my surrounds vertical. Turning your wide dispersion side/surrounds sidewise will cut down some of the dispersion pattern, but the odds are they will spray enough sound to diminish directionality intended by those who made the movie... and erode much of the benefits of any timbre matching you may have done. The key issue is that if your ears perceive a sound from a certain direction without receiving an echo within a fraction of a second, than directionality is established in your brain and you perceive where the sound is coming from. Wide dispersion speakers spray sound in so many directions that echoes off the walls bombard your ears and there is not a sufficient delay to establish directionality... and, thus, ambient sound is created. From what you said, it seems to me that this would indeed give more directionality at the cost of potientially eroding timbre matching (I am not sure what Timbre Matching is). At any rate, from what you have said, I have come to the conclusion that if I was to have 4 surrounds, turn them vertically, I could achieve the sound I am looking for. A mixture of directionality as well as ambiance. What may be kinda fun to experiment with would be rotating the speakers. Meaning being able to position them in degrees from horizontal to vertical. Geeze, I am getting way to obsesed with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 The idea of the RS-7, or any of the Klipsch WDST surround speakers is to provide WAY more direct information than Di-pole or Bi-pole speakers (which don't send any sound directly at the listening position). The coverage pattern (cone of sound) of our WDST models is 180 degrees wide by 60 degrees high. As frequency descends below 500 Hz or so, the speakers become omnidirectional (like every other speaker). This is unavoidable by any speaker design. Placing two sets of RS-7's on the side will not do much. Try to picture the cone of sound coming from a single set, 180 wide by 90 high. Adding a second set would be appropriate only in a VERY large room where a single set just couldn't cover all the seats. Turning them vertically would rotate the cone of sound to 60 by 180 and then you would get lots of sound bouncing off the ceiling and floor - not a good thing. Ed is correct in stating that using identical speakers all around will give you more direct sound and less reflected sound. Depending on your room, you may like this, but we've found that WDST is closer to the intended MOVIE replay experience in most rooms. What is most accurate in MUSIC replay? Can't tell till the industry settles into a pattern of production values. It's all over the map at this time. In any case, you have to go with what makes you happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Thanks Bob.... More to think about yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 m00n, i have a speaker configuration similar to what you are thinking about (see my signature). i use my system for both home-theater and 7-channel-stereo music - i love it for both. my living room (including dining room) is about 11' x 24', and my side surounds are placed at about 8' and 16' (from the front wall) along the 24' walls. my rear surrounds (towers) are placed along the back wall of the dining room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Jeff, you sig didn't show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 sorry, my signature didn't display - this is what i have: klipsch rc-3ii(1) - front center klipsch rf-3ii(2) - front mains klipsch rs-3ii(4) - side surrounds klipsch rf-3ii(2) - rear surrounds klipsch rsw-12(1,soon 2) - subwoofers denon avr-4802 - av receiver denon dvd-3800 - dvd player sony sat-t60 - directv/tivo receiver monster hts5100 - power center pioneer sd-533hd5 - hdtv rptv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 how do i make my signature display? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Go create it in your profile. That should be all there is too it. I created mine when we had the older forum. They just migrated everyone to this new forum last week. There are still a few kinks to work out I guess. Are your second set of RS3 on the side or rear wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 moon, do you have your single pair of rs-7 surround & single rc-7 rear surround up & running yet? if so, how does that sound? i'd give that dealer you've purchased all this from a hard time if they won't then let you demo just another pair of rs-7 or others as a 2nd set of side surrounds. that doesn't seem right as they should have rs-7 & others for demos. any other dealers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 i have a signature created - it's just not displaying. i have a pair of rs-3 on each side wall, placed at 1/3 and 2/3 the length of each wall. i also have a pair of rf-3 placed on the rear wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 ---------------- On 10/2/2002 6:23:14 PM jeffd wrote: i have a signature created - it's just not displaying. i have a pair of rs-3 on each side wall, placed at 1/3 and 2/3 the length of each wall. i also have a pair of rf-3 placed on the rear wall. ---------------- DOH! Thats right. I remember now that you mentioned it. Another thing bad about this forum is that you can't see what your trying to respond to anymore. The old forum you could scroll back up and see what others had posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 ---------------- On 10/2/2002 6:18:05 PM boa12 wrote: moon, do you have your single pair of rs-7 surround & single rc-7 rear surround up & running yet? if so, how does that sound? i'd give that dealer you've purchased all this from a hard time if they won't then let you demo just another pair of rs-7 or others as a 2nd set of side surrounds. that doesn't seem right as they should have rs-7 & others for demos. any other dealers? ---------------- Boa, I got it hooked up last night but have not had a chance to hear it yet. Also I thought that HornED said that RC7s DO make good surrounds Center channel speakers make good surround and front effects speakers due to their designed in clarity (most dialogue is channeled through center speakers)and they have at least some attempt at timbre matching the mains. However you suggested that it would not. Just wanted to get some clairification on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 but after that HE said "Although frankly, it takes a main to match a main (or even come close) when it comes to timbre. A center speaker such as an RC-7 has two woofers and one is tapered off when sounds in the vocal range are played through it. Such tapered array is not likely to be addressed when a center speaker is placed on the sides or rear of your theater." but then again, you have an rc-7 for the rear surround now. why don't you listen to it in steps before taking additional steps? this doesn't seem to conflict w/ your 1 or 0 analysis. to find out if 1 is better than 0, don't you need to 1st find out what 0 sounds like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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