La Scalas and Lowthers

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi!

I own a pair of high efficiency Lowther drivers in rear-loaded horns, and have been quite happy with their performance. For some reason, I've been thinking about and remembering the absolutely amazing sound of a pair of Klipsch Heresys I auditioned (many years ago), but just couldn't afford at the time.

I've recently come upon the chance to buy a pair of used La Scalas (black utility version)form the late 1980s. They are evidently in perfect condition in terms of performance and parts integrity, etc., but just have some minor cosmetic issues where the black paint had been scuffed along the edges.

I'm very interested to learn if there are any former Lowther users out there who have seen the light of Klipsch and changed over! I'm curious about some of the (subjective, of course) perceived differences are. The Lowthers I have probably have an in-room response to maybe 60 cycles, and I imagine one obvious difference would be low frequency extension -- with Las scalas reaching lower with increased Dbs.

Any thoughts or experiences would be very helpful and appreciated. Even at the very reasonable cost of $750, they are still difficult for me to afford. Thus I'm trying to learn as much as I can to talk myself into this purchase!

Friendly Regards,

Erik

P.S.: What is the correct way to reply to a post on this forum? Each time I click 'Reply' on a given post, I get an error message. Opening a new topic is not a problem, though...

TNX!

[Colin]

Which is better is so very much a matter of personal taste that 30 reviewers listening to 30 speakers will have 90 opinions. One is apples and one is oranges. The cones will require lots of solid power to get loose and free sounding. Even on solid state amps with dozens of RMS per channel, I am tempted to turn the traditional speakers up, searching for some semblance of the dynamics that I know are there. The super-efficient horns, however, need quality amplication. They may be more dynamic, but they also reveal every little detail of the front-end. The cone speakers I have played with lately on my flea powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours needed a lot more power at higher volumes. They were better suited to SS amps. The horns did not need globs of amplifier control and sound great when powered with tubes.

J. Gordon Holt (1985): "Those old horn-loaded squawkers had an awfully strident and dirty high end, but they reproduced the range from 100Hz to 2kHz with a degree of subjective accuracy not even approached by many of today's most highly esteemed audiophile speakers. It should not have been necessary to exchange an abominable high end for an equally abominable middle range, but that's what we've done. I don't give a damn what the measurements say---most modern speakers just do not reproduce that part of the range properly. If you doubt this, just pay close attention to the sound of the next live, in-the-flesh (brass) trombone you hear."

I have a pair of Omega single driver (Fostex) speakers that I like, although their even balance and smooth mid-range tone had to grow on me before I appreciated some of their more refined qualities. Not so with the big old Klipsch corner horns, which moved in after them. With my flea-powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour Class A tube monoblock amplifiers, this is a match made in audio heaven. To get an idea of what I thought of them go to Enjoy the Music.com and look at the current issue.

By comparison to these models, the big old horns are large, clear, effortless, quick, natural, deep, bright and sharp. Bass is smooth and present with being obviously taut or punchy. It is deep without a lot of boom. Mid-range is sweet, clear, vocals are huge, soundstage is very wide, but also amazingly shallow (along the walls). Separation between the instruments is much better. Percussive notes are much better played, not just drums, but also strings. Pianos are easily among the best that I heard, with the left-hand notes integrating with the middle and upper keys quite smoothly. There is not a lot a growl on the lower registers, but there is also not too much pinging or brightness in the upper ones as well. Snare drums are quick, easy to enjoy, but do not have a lot of the punch (remember, I have only 3.5-watts). Sub-woofer help a little with the very deep end and can tighten up the lowest octaves and add some punch, but I can see how some purists would not even want them to listen to music.

Of the dozen loudspeakers that I have listened to on this system and in this room with this equipment, the big old horns are clearly my favorites. Like the Lowthers and other single drivers, you have to take a different route than everybody when you are choosing the front-end equipment, but when you do, you come closer to making music (not merely reproducing) in the home than other combination of equipment that I have heard, except for some very big, very heavy and very expensive systems.

Many horns have fatal flaws, but stepping beyond the clinical austerity of the specifications into something mystical like making music is definitely one of their better tricks. I am currently reviewing a pair of Classic Audio Cinema Ensembles (at $1500/pauir). I will let you know in a few months if this paradigm holds up.

[mobile homeless]

Ummmm... Interesting comments, Colin. I think ole Erik has a bit of understanding on the low watt equation as, if I am not mistaken, he owns a pair of Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs that he has actually attempted to modify to 45 Monoblocks, much to the apparent chagrin of Ron himself, who has a bit of a hang-up as it were; but that's a whole other story. Colin, you did a fine job of conveying some of the emotion that goes with this whole deal when all is right.

Erik, I actually drafted an entire post in response to what I thought was an extremely poor reaction by Ron concerning the 45 mod to the Moondogs, although I have to admit I saw it coming. I agree, he was WAY over the top, and if anything, should encourage such experimentation, especially considering the origins of his own amps, derivative as they were. I hope you got some of the 45 bias issues straightened out, despite the lack of help from that end. I was going to ask you how it was coming along.

As for the question at hand, I dont know whether to send you down the La Scala path or not. As noted above, there are a lot of great things about these vintage Klipsch. I just had the chance to finally hear a finely tuned single driver rear loaded horn myself this summer with Jean-Francois' DIY Cobalt Parafeed 300B Monoblocks into a pair of Lamhorns with the AER Mk 1 drivers. I have to say, they were VERY nice and extremely dynamic and alive sounding. The immediacy and detail was extraordinary without being too over the top. There really is someting magical about a great single source speaker and I feel the Lamhorns really were excellent, especially with the AER drivers.

Although similar to the Lowther/Medallion II, I think the Lamhorn/AER is probably a bit different. Still, whether it is worth going for the La Scala is a tough call. I have not heard them since the 70s but I am quite familiar with the vintage Cornwall sound, powered by the Moondogs as well as PP tubes, both vintage and modern. I dont think the La Scala will give you any more low end, I can tell you that. I think the La Scala will scale the heights in the volume department and not come near giving out, something the Medallion/Lowther combo is not exactly made for. I think the La Scala will be even more unforgiving and perhaps brighter sounding than the Medallion as well, but I cant remember which Lowther you have. Some can be pretty ruthless. To be honest, I would almost go for the Klipschorns or the vintage Cornwalls as they would be departures from what you have in a big way. The Cornwalls have a certain old World charm and soul that I dont think is the domain of something like the Medallions. The BASS would be a big shock right off the bat, but it would not be horn loaded, perhaps something you might miss but has its appeal if running with the Moondogs in 2A3 mode. I think the Klipschorn would carry the low end missing in the Medallions and the La Scala, and it would be horn loaded as well all the way.

I am trying to remember your musical taste... The vintage Klipsch can be very ruthless and with poorly recorded material, can be problematic. Since you have the amp portion taken care of, you need to have a good source. I find vinyl/SET/horns to be magic...just in another league.

Listen, if you have the $750 ducats floating about, and a lot of room, perhaps give the La Scala a spin. With your DIY background, you could tinker with the crossovers and build your own. There are a lot of different drivers floating around in all these Klipsch as well, something that takes a while to sort out. Also, if your La Scala are of the industrial/rock band PA variety, they might have suffered some abuse. The do have different woofers as well, depending. Of the La Scala/Cornwall/Khorn, your choice has the least low end extension, but it is horn loaded and nice with the right stuff. Some think it too thin and tipped up, due to the lack of bottom to balance. Others have found it fine in this regard.

Basically, and you know what I am going to say....you have to hear them for youself in your own system. I am not sure if the La Scala will be the right leap compared to your Medallion/Lowthers.... and I am pretty sure no one here will be able to tell you exactly, although some might try.

kh

ps- Suddenly , I had this thought that this wasnt the same Erik I used to trade mails with...if not,........NEVERMIND....heh.

Also, if this the same Erik, if you DO have those 45s going in your Moondogs at a whopping 1.5w or so, the 104dB of the bigger Heritage will be a sigh of relief; it will allow those amps to breathe. AGain, the Klipschorn would be a bigger step in some direction; but also a bigger price.

[mobile homeless]

Colin, if you really like the little Paramours, I was wondering if you tried any other SETs?

Reading your big Klipsch decription again about the snare and deep growl made me want to write again that all 3.5wpc are not created equal, just like in other amplification. Seriously, see if you can borrow something with a better PS and output transformers. I think you will be really surprised how much low end impact and dynamics are available with the 2A3 at 3.5w. In comparing the Wright Sound 3.5 2A3 monos with the Moondogs, you really notice how much more low end punch there is with the Moondogs, and they both are the same power output (in fact, the Wrights are actually Class A2), yet the Moondogs are running much bigger power transformers along with the far more potent MagneQuest DS-025 output vs the Wright's MagneQuest TFA-204. And the TFA-204 output is considered a major upgrade for the Paramours, according to Doc himself (I'll add once more that I think the TFA-204 has some of the best midrange reproduction around). The Moondogs sound like a more powerful amp with far more heft and extension. Also, the parts in something of the 2A3 Moondog are up a whole other level so you do get a blacker background and amazing jump factor.

Thing is, the Lowther/Medallions with the Moondogs will also have an amazing soundstage with excellent separation and air, depending on the other gear and tubes. I was really shocked how large the Lamhorns could sound with the single -source AER sans crossover. But they did not have that charachter, depth, and most notably, the RICHNESS of my vintage Cornwalls with Alnico and Type B crossovers with oils.

I thought some more on Erik's question. And I realized that in my view, compared to the Lamhorns, the 77 Cornwalls (w/Alnico & Oils) were far less HI-FI sounding, exhibiting more SOUL and life, with a certain drama, but only the drama of the MUSIC and not that certain HIFI drama that is more indicative of HI-End equipment these days, and to a certain extent, the domain of Lamhorns as well, even though not with the same errors exhibited by typical HI-END speakers ala Wilson Watt etc. There is something big boned and alluring about Klipsch while also sounding amazingly neutral and unfettered.

I was reading the comments in the Enjoy the Music bio of yours and was wondering who wrote the Cornwall description? I really dont agree with some of that as I think the vintage CW with proper tube amplification, either vintage or good SET, can be very intimate and alive with body AND a sense of grace that is not just indicative of the "racous night club" sound, this when partnered with recordings of this nature. They can also exhibit bloom and be the antithesis of "Blare" like, although this CAN be brought about. As you do say, I think it is all important (but this is the case something of the Lowther/Medallion too) to have the proper components upstream.

Just some more thoughts on the matter, and based on a quick reread here, not exactly cohesive..but hell, it's 6:30am and I havent been to bed yet.

kh

ps-my neighbors POUNDED the walls at 2am... heh...another Klipsch liability...

[Mike Lindsey]

Since mobile has not heard the La Scala's since the 70's, let me give you an opinion from someone who currently owns a pair and who has also done some comparison listening with Colin's Cornwalls (which he has since upgraded to the Khorns). For $750, I would run as fast as I can to this guy's house and pick them up. They are a steal at that price.

Even before I upgraded my networks to the ALK and swapped out the K400 horns for Altec 511B's, the midrange on the La Scala was far superior to that of the Cornwall. All three people there (Colin, Q-Man and myself) were all in agreement on this. As a matter of fact, after hearing the La Scala's, Colin went out and bought his Khorns based on this comparison.

Since the upgrades however, they are truly incredible. The Altec's are a much wider dispersion horn and sit at ear level, they are 3 db louder and are much clearer and open. It's true the Cornwall will extend a little deeper than the La Scala, but once you hear horn-loaded bass, you won't go back. From 60hz on up, the La Scala hits harder than the Cornwall. I run my 2-channel system with no Sub and really don't feel the need for one. Granted, I don't listen to the kind of music (classical, electronic) where I feel one is necessary.

mobile, I can guarentee you if you hooked up your equipment to my speakers, you would be selling your Cornwalls the next day. I am aware the La Scala's are not for everybody and there are certainly a large number of Cornwall lovers out there. But if you have them setup in the right room with the right equipment (as I feel I do at the moment), they are a very magical speaker...

Mike

[mobile homeless]

Mike, most of my post was in comparison to the Medallion II and Lowther speaker combo. I dont know how familiar you are with Lowthers and the Medallion, but the combination is considered one of the best by many.

It has NO crossover and is a single source speaker, therefore, no crossover induced distortions or smearing. IT is rear horn loaded in the bass. IT is extremely detailed, open, alive, and very quick sounding.

Please read most of my comments in comparison and context. I was recommending a jump to the Klipschorn or perhaps the vintage Cornwalls as the biggest change considering the strengths of the Medallions.

I didn't mean for you to feel as if the La Scala is slighted at all. But also, remember, that many Cornwall owners have heard the La Scala and opted for the Cornwall ie Allan Songer, Tom Brennan etc. That is not to say I wouldnt like the La Scalas...

To learn more about the Medallion II, please take a quick look at the below:

http://www.lowther-america.com/reviews_med.htm

kh

Addition: You know, I agree that Erik might REALLY like the La Scala - I hope he brings his own amps! Personally, even if I did like them better, and I am not sure how I feel on this as I really love the warmth and soul exhibited by the Alnico/oil/Cornwalls, I dont have the room for the larger La Scala. Also, I think Erik likes a hotter setup than I do based on some of his changes.

[Colin]

Mobile is quite right about their intimacy. They do have body and a sense of grace. Probably coming from their amazing sensitivity. In fact, it is their sense of realism that leads to this greater intimacy. Nothing sucks me into intimate listening sessions like big old horns. Each larger model I have heard is better than the one previous. One has the sense that the big old horns may not be clinical accurate, but they seem to be better at making the music. Probably because of their extreme sensitivity and the quick dynamics that come with it. Like an old music instrument compared to a recording. The old instrument may lazy or muddy tone, the notes are obviously live and the emotional response is more involving and immediate. More character and depth. Perhaps that is why they are the longest selling loudspeaker models in history! A metal or fiberglass horn does not have the same mid-range warmth however as a paper cone. I don't feel as if I am missing anything. But, all vocals seem brighter and clearer. One thing that I do note is that any reverb applied to the vocalist, which is most recordings, is easily heard on all horn reproduction. This is not so obvious with the paper Fostex cones on the Omegas.

The big old horns sensitivity also makes them very revealing. You do hear everything on a recording. I thought separation was much better than on the single driver. Vocals and instruments are slightly better formed, stand apart slightly better and all of the notes play with more equality. The lead vocals do not stand out in front of the other instruments and force them into the background.

With such a superb system already, you certainly will have to listen to them yourself. Many people do not like the horn sound. The extra sensitivity of my Khorns made a very big difference over the Cornwalls I had. With my flea-powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour Class A tube monoblock amplifiers, the Khorns seem to have all the power they need. Strangely, I play the corner horns with more volume than the Cornwalls (still about 9:00 on the dial), but little miss sensitive ears, with whom I permanently share my humble abode, complains less. Also, I seem to crank the Khorns less. Where rock sessions on the Cornwalls might go as high as 11:00 on the dial, I rarely crank the Khorns that loud. I am also doing a lot less rock listening these days. The Khorns are still new to me and I am still in "the can't get enough of the intimate female vocalist" mood.

In fact, I have the beefy little nOrh SE9 integrated amplifier and the Coincident Signature Triumphs here to listen to, but I am not in any rush to dismantle my Khorns to try new things. I fact, I have done very little experimentation with the corner horns at all, except for pulling them out from the corners to try and increase the depth of the soundstage. The shallow soundstage took some getting used to. (This from a man who had his Cornwalls four feet away from the front wall.) I so pleased with the naturalness of the sound that I plan no major upgrades, or feel no need to keep tweaking. (Doubtlessly, this is only temporary.) Much of the changes made in many typical stereos systems seem to be to be just more of the same. Like a big yellow bus. More engine, more sets, more bright colors. More of a bus, less of a ride.

I would like to hear the Wright and the Moondogs, but no models are on their way.

I do use my subs with the Khorns, but they have to be turned down really low, for they easily intrude upon the tone. Unlike the Cornwalls, I do not find myself jumping up and now to adjust the subs between movies and music. It is as if the punchy mid-bass of the Cornwalls encouraged me to add deep bass with the sub-woofers, especially with movies. With the Khorns however, the smoothness of the upper and mid-bass seems to satisfy me more. Do note however, that with Khorns in the corner, I no longer have space to place the subs in the corner for the deepest bass. So my only choice is to dial up EQ or volume, but that intrudes on the Khorn low and mid-bass.

[Mike Lindsey]

----------------

On 10/11/2002 11:24:32 PM mobile homeless wrote:

As for the question at hand, I dont know whether to send you down the La Scala path or not.

Although similar to the Lowther/Medallion II, I think the Lamhorn/AER is probably a bit different. Still, whether it is worth going for the La Scala is a tough call. I have not heard them since the 70s but I am quite familiar with the vintage Cornwall sound, powered by the Moondogs as well as PP tubes, both vintage and modern. I dont think the La Scala will give you any more low end, I can tell you that. I think the La Scala will scale the heights in the volume department and not come near giving out, something the Medallion/Lowther combo is not exactly made for. I think the La Scala will be even more unforgiving and perhaps brighter sounding than the Medallion as well, but I cant remember which Lowther you have. Some can be pretty ruthless. To be honest, I would almost go for the Klipschorns or the vintage Cornwalls as they would be departures from what you have in a big way. The Cornwalls have a certain old World charm and soul that I dont think is the domain of something like the Medallions. The BASS would be a big shock right off the bat, but it would not be horn loaded, perhaps something you might miss but has its appeal if running with the Moondogs in 2A3 mode. I think the Klipschorn would carry the low end missing in the Medallions and the La Scala, and it would be horn loaded as well all the way.

Of the La Scala/Cornwall/Khorn, your choice has the least low end extension, but it is horn loaded and nice with the right stuff. Some think it too thin and tipped up, due to the lack of bottom to balance. Others have found it fine in this regard.

----------------

mobile,

From these quotes it seems like you are comparing the La Scala to the Cornwall, which you are grouping with the Khorn. I can tell you, the Cornwall sounds nothing like the Khorn or the La Scala. The La Scala on the other hand is identical to the Khorn, with the exception of the lower frequencies. By modifying the networks on the La Scala, that balance you speak of is almost attainable (bringing the mids back to neutral). When I ran the frequency sweeps on mine, they were -1db at 50hz and -7db at 40hz. This based on a 1khz test tone. Not earth shattering but very respectable for most types of music.

As for the Lowther/Medallion, you are right - I have never heard one and don't know anything about it. It sounds and looks interesting enough. Are they as efficient as the Cornwall/La Scala? The other advantage (in this case anyway) the La Scala has over the Cornwall is an extra 3db of SPL. Not a heck of a lot, but with Moondogs, I'm sure it will make a difference.

You have asked Erik to listen to the speakers and make a decision based on this. I think you should do the same. I know you have a number of friends throughout the hi-fi community where you get a lot of your information, but like you always say, it's your own ears that count. Let them make the decision for you.

BTW, I've been out of commission for the last month with a ruptured disc in my neck that is pinching a nerve all the way down my right shoulder and arm. It is very painful and I am on large doses of percoset and muscle relaxers. Therefore, I'm not thinking very well at the moment and I've been flying off the handle with very little to goad me... so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I see a Neurosurgeon on Monday so hopefully I can get back to normal pretty soon...

Mike

[mobile homeless]

More good points above.

I will quickly add that the Lowther and Medallion is a whole different animal from that Fostex speaker. The Lowthers are a major upgrade in some ways. But just as in horns, all of these single-source speakers/drivers are not created equal. Colin, you have to hear the Lamhorns on great SET amps to see..but the detail and air is VERY engaging... And the separation of the instruments, this also being a result of the amps and front end, is VERY good, equaling almost any I have heard. And the Medallion/Lowther combo is more comparable to the Lamhorns. In some ways, I think his current setup might offer a more refined sound...

Still, both of you are right in that at the price of 700 or so, it is a no brainer to give them a listen. I tell you one thing; they will sure go louder and with more ease and less distortion than his Medallion/Lowther pair.

The model that I am most intrigued with is the Klipschorn as if I were staying with the Klipsch line, that is what I would move to.

btw, your depth of soundstage is one of the sacrafices of putting all this horns deep into the corners. But it is amazing how well they DO do there; for just as you, I have had EVERY speaker I own at least 4ft or more from the back walls (and as far from the sidewalls as I can as well).

EDIT: Mike, just read your post above. Sorry to hear about the neck! MAn, that is awful! I know how debilitating something like that can be. Yeah, I thought you seemed more combative than usual although you know me, I dont mind that at all! heh... I might get a chance to hear some La Scala if I ever get off my rump and do that site for Ed Schilling's The Horn. He has two set of La Scala. Of course, he hates the damn things and I have had several arguments about it with him. HE uses 2A3 Fi amps. You should see Brennan and Schilling go at it!

- I believe the Lowther/Medallion II are in between the CW and La Scala in efficiency

[Mike Lindsey]

mobile,

I wish you could make it down to Orlando this winter to hear my rig. I have a couple of spare bedrooms so it won't cost you anything (except maybe your sanity). Although it won't be as lush as your SET system, it is very dynamic with separation galore. At 6 on the volume, the little Scott 299 can pound out 105db from the listening position without a breath of distortion. I'm still using generic Home Depot wire and tubes, and am amazed by the sound.

Of course, I will return the favor when I see you in May during my Myrtle Beach trip. I look forward to hearing your Moondogs via the Cornwalls and will know what I am missing out on...

Mike

[Erik Mandaville]

Mike -

Erik Mandaville, here. Wow, I'm sorry to hear about your neck and pinched nerve. I can only imagine how painful and frustrating that must be. good luck with your doctor, and hopefully they can do something for you that won't require being constantly spaced out on pain killers -- that can just be a drag after awhile.

Thanks for all the helpfu information regarding the La Scalas. The price is really good, I only wish they were the natural color rather than scuffed up black. I could always refinish the cabinets though...

Take care and regards,

Erik

[mobile homeless]

Mike, I just thought what might be your neck problem! You gettin' wild and crazy with that neck snapping acceleration from the 90s Vette!!!

Seriously, hope all does go well with the neck mess - maybe you will get a chance to do some more listening. Would love to get down there to hear some tunes on your vintage tube - La Scala - Altec gear; lord, for a brief moment, I thought I heard it up here when outside last night! And I thought I liked some volume!

Sounds like your whole setup is coming together which is a great thing considering the amount of effort you have been spending over the last year searching. Great to see it all pay off. Perhaps I'll make my way down there to hear AND see; thanks for the invite! Hell, I still owe you a bottle of wine, remember?

kh

[Mike Lindsey]

Erik and mobile,

Thanks for the kind words about the neck problems. Believe it or not, 90% of my pain is actually in my right arm and shoulder, which is where the nerve runs from the neck. I actually feel better today than I have in almost 5 weeks since this whole ordeal started. So good in fact that I haven't had to take a pain killer yet today.

Erik, when I first got my La Scala's they were a mess. They had gouges, chipped veneer, scratches, you name it. I was lucky enough to have Q-Man (a fellow Forum member and cabinet maker) refinish them for me, and they are now one of the nicest pairs you will ever see. Shoot me an Email at mlindsey@dewberry.com and I will send you some before and after pics.

mobile, I haven't forgotten about the wine. I'm serious, if you guys run into some bad weather along the coast this winter, come on down for a weekend and I'll take care of you...

Mike