"Discretely Surrounded"... HELP

[HornEd]

Somehow, the speaker choices have not been equal to the challenge of the surround/rear effects channels. The closest for my rig would probably be the hard-to-find KSP-S6... and, maybe, some new Hope is about to arrive soon.

Obviously, part of the problem is an industry which, historically, has not put as much emphasis overall soundtrack on rear effects... and just puts it best thought into a few "high drama" scenes.

The Klipsch "WDST" approach helps... but, of course, the timbre of Klipsch mains is not likely to be matched with typically downsized surrounds. And using rear towers that match or approximate ones mains do not have the latitude of creating the ethereal sound qualities of well designed surrounds.

I wonder, could a person put a WDST surround atop or nearby a KLF 10 or 30 and, somehow, connect it to sing out ethereally and let the tower do the heavier discrete work.

Mounting the KLF 10's on KSW-12's has provided some extra depth to otherwise lackluster soundtracks... now to attack the ethereal end of Klipsch enjoyment! Any suggestions? HornEd

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"Klipsch by the Dozen"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Rear Six Pack:

KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Happy Ears x2!

[boa12]

ed, take it the yammy doesn't drive 2 sets of surrounds as well as that rear center channel?

those s6 should match up pretty well to the klf if u can find em. don't know for sure but those new rs-7 could be a possibility.

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster Standard Cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[Craig6519]

HornEd, A friend of mine is running KSP-S5 in series with his KLF-20 in the rears and It sounds really good. He is also using a Yamaha reciever. I've always wanted to pick up a pair of 10's or 20's to put as my rear surround and hook them in series with my S-6's, Only problem is i'm stationed overseas and there to big to ship. I really want them in Medium Oak too so they'll match my 30's.

Craig

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Klipsch KLF30 Mains

Klipsch KLF-C7 Center

Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds

Klipsch KSB 1.1 Front Effects

SVS 20-39CS Sub (In the mail)

Samaon S700 Sub Amp (In the mail)

Yamaha DSP-A1

Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc

Yamaha TX-492 Tuner

Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player

Panasonic A110 DVD

Sony TA-N220 Amp running front effects

Hitachi MX4080EM Muli-system VCR

Hitachi 29" T.V.

Denon DP-37F Turntable

[HornEd]

Unless I missed something, this Yammie doesn't allow such surround control. In past systems, I would piggyback another Yammie to serve as a distribution amp to two year channels (i.e., the "front" speaker outs of the second amp feeds the mid-theater surrounds and, with an inserted time delay, the "rear" speaker outs feed the rear effects). The effect can be awesome.

In this case, I will probably do that... which will allow the Primary Yammie to also feed the rear center as intended in its 6.1 mode (real or matrix as dictated by program material).

Thus, it seems there is a potential to create an induced 10.1 system (2 mains, 2 front effects, 1 front center, 2 surrounds, 2 rear effects, 1 rear effects center PLUS a subwoofer cluster) using 14 speakers.

Then again, maybe I should save a little listening area for people listening!

Somehow, for me, using KSP-S6's and/or constantly switching between specialized sets of surrounds do not seem equal to the answer I am seeking. Clearly, there are two different missions for surround speakers and they ideally should be met by the same speaker configuration... as is attempted in the WDST approach. I just think the concept needs some more "discrete" implementation... and I am seeking to do that by adding/merging a wide area potential to a solid discrete unit (KLF 10).

Am I alone in such musings? HornEd

[HornEd]

Craig... you were posting while I was answering Boa. I know the drill about being stationed overseas. In fact, one of the most fun stereo speaker systems I ever owned was one that I backed into in Orleans, France. In the very old and very substantial stone building in which I lived, a previous tenant had papered over huge cupboards on either side of the fireplace. I carefully cut the woven wallcovering fabric to find very heavy oak doors. With great care, I removed enough oak to have 15" woofers, an exponential horn and a tuned port sealed in the centuries old cavities. As luck would have it, there was a built-in set of shelves that held all the amplifiers, etc. beneath the left "speaker cabinet". It was fun to watch the puzzled looks of amazement when people would walk in and not be able to locate the speakers!

The approach your friend took is probably something I would like to try as an interim measure. I would appreciate any other comments along this line.

Who knows, maybe starting over with the new K-line is the way to go. HornEd

PS: I still look forward to a report on your "in-the-mail" report.

[boa12]

ed, how bout a wdst type speaker where the high drivers electronically swivel depending on which mode u select or even get their cues electronically from the program material? pretty futuristic

[HornEd]

YEA BOA!!! Now you catch my drift! Surround sound began as primarily an "ambiance" oriented technique and has drifted into being an increasingly discrete channel orientation. But, from an HT perspective, being able to have the advantage of the "ambiance" effects punctuated by appropriate "discrete" effects makes the most sense. It's digital sound, so why not tag the discrete effects sounds and blast them through an equivalent of the main speaker... and push all the rest through a 180 degree "ambiance dispersion" hybrid.

For most instances, an internal automatic switch in the receiver that route sounds under a set db level to the "ambiance" aspect of the speaker and everything over a set db level to the aspect of the speaker that matched with the mains. I would suppose that a bit of switching electronics could be added directly to the compound discrete/ambiance speaker... and make the speaker be a top performer with any surround sound amplifier rig. It just doesn't seem that far fetched. Any more ideas? HornEd

[HornEd]

I have just had the good fortune to find another pair of KLF 30's (auth. dealer, factory sealed) at a good price. Thus, it's time to ask for ideas as to how I can derive the best Klipsch HT sound from a different array of speakers.

So, here's my plan. The Yamaha V3000 gives me a 6.1 config for all 5.1 or 6.1 formated DVDs (front center, r/l mains, r/l surrounds, rear center effects plus subwoofer... and r/l front effects). The mew array will have the KLF C-7 as a front center, KLF 30's for mains and side effects... with a pair of KLF 10's for rear effects... and a KLF 10 as the rear center effects speaker. The KSW-15 handles the front subwoofer chores while the three rear KSW-12's add a discrete kick when called upon. The SB-2's will still take care of the front effects sound stage.

I expect to add another amp to allow provide power for the side effects KLF-30's and rear effects KLF-10's... or possibly migrate to a Denon to have more control over the surround environment.

But, even with 14 Klipsch speakers in the room, there is a shortage in the "ambiance" character of the surrounds. Thus, I am speculating the addition of a pair of WDST SS-1's to mount atop the rear KLF-30's to correct that shortfall. I had been looking for some KSP-S6's to match the legends... but to no avail. With 30's taking care of the discrete aspects, I thought it not necessary to go to RS-3's... plus the guts of the SS-1 match those of the front effects SB-2's.

Another option would be to set up a 7.1 rig by using a pair of KLF 30's as mains and surrounds with a pair of KLF-10's as rear effects... and experiment with turning the remaining KLF 10 into a large center channel... by cutting a new board to hold a rotated centered Tractrix and providing some shielding (which does not seem as critical on an RPHD 65").

Or as a third option, splitting the "old" KLF 30's and use one for the rear center effects and "rearange" the other to become a center channel speaker to ideally match the KLF 30 mains. The "Klipsch totem towers" (SS-1 atop a KLF 10 atop a KSW-12) would become the hybrid discrete/ambiance surround array.

Maybe I should sell it all off and look to building something with the new product line... but it is kind of fun preserving the legend of the Legends and reaching out for new and better sounds. After all, why should PWK & friends have all the fun? Further... Klipsch pros will be around to provide support... whether it be a clever quip on this board or a plethora of great replacement speakers at my local Klipsch dealer. Join in the fun... make a comment! Thanks, HornEd

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"Klipsch by the Dozen"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Rear Six Pack:

KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Happy Ears x2!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-08-2001 at 08:42 PM

[dougdrake]

Somebody stop this guy!! Leave some speakers for the rest of us (LOL)!?!?!?

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Current Setup:

Rec: Denon AVR-3300

DVD: Denon DVD-3000

VCR: Toshiba M784

Front: Forte

Center: KV-3

Rear: SS-1

Sub: Velodyne CT-120

TV: Sony 43" RPTV

Other: Monster HTS2000 Power Conditioner,

Pronto remote, X-10 Interface for lights/bass shakers/etc...

Also, pair of KG4s and KG3s

[Guest BobG]

Ed, thanks for almost singlehandedly keeping Klipsch in business! Now, if we could convince every Klipsch customer to buy 14 speakers...

The concept of Legend towers topped by WDST surrounds was discussed and praised here a few months ago. Seems people were pretty happy with the increased bass, localization and were on the same track as you. Undoubtedly it can cause problems for the amp unless you use an outboard amp or wire in series. Series wiring introduces frequency related changes as the impedance curve of one speaker influcence the amplitude response of its series mate. This will change depending on the capability of the amp to deliver current. Parallel wiring avoids this distortion but presents a pretty tough load to the amp.

Regarding SS-1's atop Legends in the rear, I doubt they will keep up. Too big a difference in sensitivity. Check the forthcoming RS-7 which as high sensitivity and another octave of bass.

[HornEd]

Thanks, BobG, I kneaded that! My basement is "littered" with at least fourteen from other vendors... In deference to your new slate of K-wonders I should probably be holding back until I see them. But, my primary incentive remains bringing a daily shot of auditory joy and neural reinforcement to a 93 year-old mom who can't afford to waste a day!

The RS-7 sounds very promising and I look forward to hearing the complete package soon. As you may guess, my local Klipsch dealer doesn't frown when I walk in... and they are trying to bring their sales crew up to speed thanks to your roving sales booster team. At least, they don't have as blank a look as they did when I first asked those Klipsch questions.

That being established, I have some concern about how the RS-7 would resolve the ambiance/discrete problem. It seems to have enough muscle for the discrete but how about its potential to issue the timely broad scattered "aural clues" necessary for full enjoyment of Dolby Surround "standards."

Actually, it would seem to be an exciting time in the sound business... and maybe a bit risky for both manufacturer and, to a lesser degree, the consumer. A spurt of continued economic well being (for manufacturer AND consumer) with a commensurate growth in sound technology AND creative implementation by the "film" industry makes for an enticing caldron.

Up until your above post, BobG, I was thinking of building an experimental hybrid which would have an external amp with outs to a BASH implemented sub feeding a pair of WDST horns. The primary receiver would be used to feed the "discrete surround" speaker such as the RS-7. From what I see on this board so far, the RS-7 and its companions are a cut above what Klipsch has offered in this class speaker... but, it seems that there are still some issues in getting the most from both older and emergent HT sound formats... but then I may be picky... but as long as I pick Klipsch, I hope you will be tolerant. Actually, the Klipsch revolution in this household was sparked by the nonagenarian ears reacting to the presence Klipsch horns. Thanks for your concern... and quips!

It continues to be fun playing with your now discontinued but still praise worthy speaker line... and look what training that and this board is doing to make me a better Klipsch consumer for years to come.

HornEd