multiple subs. problem?

[dtximages]

I have two sw12 and one sw15. I love having them all hooked up but could anybody tell me the dangers with this besides structural damage to my house. Some people speak of acoustical nightmares happening with this. What are they and how do i fix them?

Thanks alot guys

chris

[Klewless]

I don't think you will hurt the house. Generally it is difficult to properly get a sub to integrate with the rest of the speakers, but not impossible.

I have seen recommendations for using only one sub. And recommendations for multiple subs. Multiple subs would become even more challenging to set up. But they are said to smooth out the bass because you get more sounds from different locations. One fills in where the other may not. However it could become a real mess trying to figure out which one could be causing a muddy sound. Next comes how to set the levels. I assume you do one at a time, but which one????

If I had another sub, I'd be very tempted to try two because I do like my pipe organ music.

Bottom line? Go for it but be prepared for lots of setup time. If you get it right, you'll be a very happy camper.

OK?????

------------------

John P

St Paul, MN

[Colin]

I have two subs, the KSW200 and the LF-10:

By testing each sub at multiple combinations of the volume and equalization settings (about 14 tests each) with a Stereophile test CD and a Radio Shack SPL meter, I was able to measure the response curves of each sub. The tests were measured at the sweet spot, at armchair level, 11 feet away, in a 17 by 27 carpeted living room, with furniture and sloping cathedral ceilings. Although not actually bright, I would describe clap tests in the room as mildly reverberant, especially when compared to the bedrooms or study.

Both subs share the same 40 to 120 Hz cross-over range, but the LF10 rolls off faster (36 dB vs. 24 dB) above 120 Hz. It is this roll-off that clearly shows the difference between the two subs. The frequency response curve on the older model peak at 63 HZ on all EQ settings, while the LF10 peaked lower 40 Hz.

When playing quality CDs, I initially set the subs to their flattest overall response. When I did that on the KSW200 it filled in the bottom octave, but it also added boomy upper bass. Dialing back the volume and/or EQ settings removed the boom, but also reduced the output below 60 Hz, down to the point where the lowest frequencies were not audible at normal listening levels. In order to hear the low bass, one has to dial the volume level so high that interferes with the mid-bass. So the LF-10 ends up being the one to fill in the lowest notes and it is ppowerful models like this one that you need for organ music and action movies.

If you love organ music you must have two or more powerful subs, you are missing much of the low end of the music!

[HornEd]

cls72, I have a KSW-15 and three KSW-12's in an HT configuration. Klewless and Colin are "spot on" when it comes to the set-up time and approaches. In my case, a KSW 30 sits atop each KSW 12 to provide a rear array that kicks in some extra startling realism to the low end with all the directionality that may be available (which is more than I anticipated).

While the KSW-15 has performed well up front, I agree with Colin that a matched pair would provide far better pipe organ response. I expect to remedy this "flaw" in my Legends rig with either a pair of new Klipsch subwoofers or a pair of SVS' latest "Ultra" innovation as recommended by Tom Vodhanel, the Legendary Sub Human. Try http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ to get some low down on low sound... for such info can be applied to many different brands of sub situations.

One pair of massive matched subs in the same corner is probably the best and easiest approach to fighting the evils of multiple standing waves. Your easiest path to greater "sub" awareness is to pick up another KSW-15. Ah, yes, if you like pipe organs... you've got to get to the bottom of it! HornEd

------------------

"30 Something 6.1 Herd"

KLF 30 Mains

KLF 30 Mod Center

KLF 30 Mod Surrounds

KLF 30 Rear Effects

SB-2 Front Effects

Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and more...

... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-06-2001 at 02:12 AM

[Earle Decker]

I found that it was best to put both subs in the same corner. I tried playing around with other postions and had problems with cancellations and huge peaks at certain frequencies.

I had reststed the idea of both in the same corner because I was having a hard time balancing the subs output with the other speakers with then in the same corner. A BFD helped here and also let me lose the slight peaks in my room.

Earle

------------------

Reciever: Denon AVR3200

Speakers: Klipsch KG4.2's/KG2.2v/KSB 3.1's/SVS 20-39's

Amps: B&K Ref 4022(mains)/Fidek 600 watt(subs)

DVD: Toshiba 3109

Laser Disc: Pioneer CLD-1090

TV: Sony 32" monitor

2 pair of Aura Bass Shakers

Millennium 2.4.6 DTS Decoder

[boa12]

yea most of the experts recommend stacking em. i haven't tried that but maybe some carpet sample or something between em to protect.

guess that'd be hard to do w/ an svs though

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[JPahl]

I have dual SV 16-46cs's next to each other in the same corner of my room. The reason you put them together in a closed corner in your room is to increase the spl's, (approximately 5db increase), and reduce the possibility of cancellation. Adding additional identical subs will not make them go lower, just louder. If you want to be a bottom feeder then you have to use bottom feeders ! 16-46's are tuned to 16hz and can go lower than that (based room dynamics). My old sub was an SW12II, great sub but nothing compared to SV's.

[Curt Jett]

And I have two 20-39cs SVS subs in the same corner and they fill the whole house with bone rattling bass. That's in a bi-level house. For organ music you will want to go with something that really extends down low and the 16-46s will fit that perfectly.

[Seb]

well jpahl, by definition, if stacking two subs makes the ensemble louder, then where you used to have smaller amounts of bass (i.e. below the rolloff point), you'll have more, which makes for more usable bass at the lowest limit, thereby effectively reaching lower volumes with usable output.

as to several subs in the same room... well it can certainly be a tricky thing to achieve, but I'd experiment with the subs left and right, and one in the rear maybe, hooked between the receiver and the rear speakers... that way you can run the rears large and you'll have more directionality, both left/right and front/rear. that's the advantage. the disadvantage is that you can, and probably will, run into weird problems of cancellations and reinforcements of certain frequencies in certain spots.

once again the operative word is EXPERIMENT...

[JPahl]

Seb,

Yes by definition, it does make the ensamble LOUDER. It will increase the SPL's within the usable range by 4 to 5 db. However, placing subs together does not change the inherent charactersitics of the subs themselves. If your subs rolloff hard at say 35hz but can play, although not discernibly, to 30hz, puting two subs together will make those points louder. As an example, if a single sub produces 90db @ 35hz and dives to 75db @ 30hz, with dual subs you should achieve approximatly 96db @ 35hz and 81db @ 30hz. But you will not get any lower than 30hz. Yes, you have more usable bass @30hz, but you will not achieve anything LOWER with this setup. That was my point.

[Seb]

yeah but then the output that was below 30Hz, at say 25Hz, and was almost not discernible, is now more present. of course the relative volumes would tend to be the same so really you wouldn't gain much in extension, but if you take the word purely to mean "this(these) sub(s) has(have) useable output down to X", then the two subs would have useable output lower. i guess i was trying to make a foggy point, sorry for that.

whatever, just remember that when you add more subs, you gain more volume than extension.

[HornEd]

Wow, Seb, all those posts and quality too! Glad you weren't permanently consumed in hot PC posts from Quebec.

I have an SVS twin Ultra-CS with a megawatt Samson plus an EQ (for experimentation) on the way. Though they are designed to be together in the best corner, I am tempted to try flanking them outside my KLF-30 mains (which are outside a 65" RPHD TV) and inside the high mounted (on matching 47" tall equipment racks) inverted KLF 10 front effects speakers.

My thought is that the even distribution in this particular sound absorbing environment may prove a worthy experiment.

I am a success oriented veteran of the "standing wave wars" through my use of three KSW-12's in a rear array and a single KSW-15 up front. My purpose was to augment HT rear sounds to stimulate my 93 year-old mother... and indeed it does! She has become a real Klipsch fan... routinely telling her friends that "Having 'horns' is the key to longevity with a smile!"

With the bottom feeding aspects of the SVS CS-Ultra in mind, wouldn't we be better off setting the side & rear KLF 30's to "LARGE" for better bass directionality and direct all other sub frequencies directly to the bottom feeder?

Thousands of "lurkers" may be looking for your response, Seb... I know I will. Thanks. HornEd

PS: Attention Klipsch Smiley Division... we need a little smiley with REALLY BIG EARS!

------------------

"Living with Legends and Loving it!" -HornEd's Mom

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-02-2001 at 12:47 AM

[Seb]

I don't know...

I've had mixed results with using the subs with the speaker level outputs, and i don't know whether it's possibleto run both line out and speaker out at the same time... must depend on the receiver.

Besides, after thinking about it for a while, it might be great to think that you're experiencing the mix like the sound designer had it in mind, i.e. full range all around and a strong lfe, but wouldn't it be kind of a waste to use a sub only for the rears?

I mean, I know there are SOME low frequencies going there on certain mixes, but sound designers aren't stupid, they know not many people have the possibility of having full range at the surrounds... So I'm guessing they don't send too much low-end signal in the back, right?

So basically, the rear subs would be wasted. I'd probably try both a full range all around setup, and then try to hook all the subs up to either the front outputs or the lfe, but scattering them all around, for a more surrounding bass. You'd have to really fight cancellation though.

You most certainly have more experience/expertise than me at multiple subwoofer problems, HornEd... How is your system hooked up right now?

[HornEd]

Seb, as I have said on other posts, my primary aim in this particular system is to stimulate my dimentia and stroke affected 93 year-old mother. You would be amazed at the progress she has made in increased cognition and has even reversed some of the dimentia trends. She has done this under the scrutiny and testing of top notch UCSF doctors who have watched me use advanced Pavlovian techniques to structure her environment for specific ends. These are techniques that I began using in the U.S. Army Medical Corps and later used to improve the productivity and enhanced life style of my employees over the years. I add this only as a clue to the level of care and concern that I have in this arrangement... and that you are aware that I am after effective bass not just loud bass.

I must have a dozen different subwoofers attached or stored here... and two more from SVS are on the way.

Currently, my rear array consists of three KSW-12's with KLF 30's shock mounted on top of them. You are correct, Seb, in assuming that most sound engineers send very little full-range discrete content to the rear channels... and often what they do send is a fairly low volume. Remember, for over a decade, engineers have been putting narrow frequency "verbal clues" for the surrounds for directionality... and the main punch came from the mains. However, there is a distinct trend IMHO toward fuller spectrum rear discrete sound in newer releases.

I set the rears to LARGE and run Monster speaker cable to the subs and extentions to the rear array KLF 30's. Frankly, the KLF 30's do a good job... but having the subs to provide the extra kick to some discretely portrayed explosion has helped stimulate mom to the max! For the time being, I am using a single KSW-15 for the front array... and would have bought a second but I would like to hear the new Klipsch subs.

Since the new K-subs will be awhile in even publishing anticipated specs and my research cannot afford to wait, I am awaiting delivery of a twin SVS CS-Ultra with 1,000 watt (500 per channel) Samson amp and an EQ for experimental use. I bought the KSW-12's before I had six KLF 30's. With so many 12" and over woofers, I have had to be very judicious in placement and sound absorbtion surfaces to win the battle of the standing waves.

While in an ideal world frequencies below about 80Hz are "non-directional, the real world is sufficiently imperfect to leak informational harmonics, etc. that can lead to some great listening experiences.

I am also awaiting delivery of a pair of Cornwall II's that I picked up for music room duty... but that is another story for another time.

I just returned from a long trip home from the wilderness and will add some more when my head stops trying to get some rest. Later, HornEd

[Seb]

I, and I'm sure numerous others, would really like some more precisions on your research, preferably in understandable english, I've only had a couple elementary psychology classes...

Therapy by bass? Interesting, could probably use that as an argument to make my girlfriend accept some more of those big black boxes later on when we move in together...

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[boa12]

when my girl's sleeping i really turn up the bass. i think this works in a subliminal manner as she doesn't get po'd unless she wakes up.

but it must be working on her subconscious as over time

her conscious protests have gotten less & less. instead of "turn down those klips" it's now "would u please turn down those KLIPSCH some hon".

also, when not playing sys, whispering "bass, bass..."

while she is sleeping also seems to be working some.*

* this humor only directed toward girlfriends/spouses.

not mothers. ed, after re-reading wanted to add this.

sorry for any unintended insensitivity to u & your mom.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-02-2001 at 04:27 PM

[HornEd]

Sorry, Seb, my bad! I responded when I was very tired and hadn't plugged in my "humanity" filter. This system is an HT oriented system designed to augment select DVD movies in a stimulating healthy life experiences for an elderly lady who has trouble remembering any longer than a day or two. The accent on the "felt" aspect of bass IMHO tends to increase neural pathway density... a critical issue for an aging mind not accustomed to critical thinking. But, empirically more bass (deeper & tighter rather than louder & LOUDER) seems to be working... and, frankly, I like to feel moved rather beaten upon by pitch indeterminate boomers.

Gad, did it again, now your doin' the ...

All I really meant to say is that I take creating a better bass environment a little more seriously than most. Building an HT system with a high degree of sound directionality is what led to the six KLF 30's. Having an opportunity to reflect large spatial effects meant going to K-horns or adding front effects channels with high mounted KLF 10's. Using Legends for this experiment allowed a greater range of placement experimentations than K-horns allow.

While my experiments may be too narrow for most, the ideas I get from others... and hopefully the ideas I give to others... fit a wide variety of HT installations that are built for fun and not therapy... and besides, where is it written that therapy should not be fun?

For example, I picked up a thread on this BB about Perpetual Technologies "Digital Correction Engine" and the P3-A DAC ( perpetualtechnologyies.com ) and would appreciate any additional comments on that puppy and its usefulness in the real world of Klipsch.

There have been at least 250 different DVD's through this rig so far this year... and the tweaks made over the last four months have made reruns an in-depth experience.

As Home Theater enthusiasts, we have an advantage over most movie theaters because we do not have to move as much air over as wide an area to make soul-stirring sound waves crash down on our leather LazyBoy beach.

Seb, I have read many a thread that lament your absence from this board while you focused on your PC experience. So, when I saw those three little letters S-E-B, I jumped a the chance to see your light shine!

three letters... that reminds me of a lady I met from Canada in a redwood forest last week. She is one of the people who says "ay" after just about everything. She told me that's how Canada was named... they wanted it short so they picked three letters out of a hat... and the emcee called out c "ay", n "ay", d "ay" Hope that still rates a good natured LOL in St. Bruno... where it might be old hat.

Part of the issue I was trying to raise in the above post was finding the pathway between getting speakers to fit the room or adjusting the room to fit the speakers. Just as "KlipschSoundHeads" seem to want the real stuff out of a DVD or CD, I like to modify a room to minimize the coloration rooms make on great sound. I guess that's the same chase that made Yamaha spend a ton on custom DSP chips that get panned so often on this BB... but part of the failure of DSP chips to live up to their promise is that most people don't listen to them in a "sound neutral" room (if there really is such a thing in the day-to-day world).

I guess if there is a real world saving grace to all this... it's that there is no shortage of non-egghead friends and relations that enjoy this Klipsch ride. Oh yeah, and my bachelor son's amorous use of the facility also got rave reviews that he described as, "Dad, you had to be there... but, I'm glad you weren't!" HornEd

Geez, I got to find that "humanity filter"... maybe it's under my counter-rotating propeller beanie SPL meter?

[Seb]

Hahaha!!

HornEd, it's always an immense pleasure reading those posts of yours. Funny, interesting and chock full of info!

Seriously, I don't see how people up here in the home audio department could have missed me, given that the majority know much more than me about audio, life, the pursuit of happiness, and the interrelations between the three. Down there in the promedia forum, I could have understood, but up here?

As I previously said, I'm now working in an electronics/computing/comunications/photography/audio/video store, so I'll try to bring as much of that experience to this board as possible. And yes, we sell Klipsch. Looking forward to the end of my probation period, where I will get to buy anything in the store at cost.

I will also try to bring as much of this BB to the store as possible. Oh, and if anyone at Klipsch (or not) is interested in some covert, behind-the-scenes observation of what goes on in Dumoulin authorized Klipsch retailers in Quebec...

Anyways, I think that selling experience will be beneficial to me for my future career, and maybe also financially, if I keep getting better and better at it... hehehe...

Keep up the good works HornEd and other pillars of Klipsch knowledge! And HornEd, profit from you retirement to use that time of yours for experimentations, it profits all of us here.

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[Seb]

oh, and ed, i know you're after BETTER bass, but don't you think it would be interesting for you and your mom to try this bad boy?

http://www.servodrive.com/servo/cb.shtml

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[HornEd]

Hey Seb, you seem to have brought to the fore a worthy competitor... and I have, in your honor, looked carefully at the overall specs... and I believe that for the present, I have made the correct choice. Actual delivery and thorough testing will be done on the SVS CS-Ultra and an honest appraisal will be made and shared with this Forum. I should also be candid enough to say that I expect to tweak the unit to achieve an even better set of numbers. But, in exchange for some inside info, I am sworn to secrecy on that issue for now. As many on this forum know, my first concern has been for bass quality and bass management... with cost being a secondary concern. With cost as a consideration, SVS wins hands down. But, it is that space between ears that really counts... not specs or cost. For any bass units is less expensive than the over $5,000 per month they want in this part of the world to approach caring for my mother as I do now.

Tom Vodhanel, the "V" in SVSubwoofers, speaks highly of servo based subs as a concept and particularly high of the Vel 18" HGS. He has given his assurance that the sub that is delivered here will beat anything under $5k... he seems to have been honest with me thus far and I will see him to his word. The biggest problem I see with SVS is that they are a tiny, young company. Kinda like a little duck leisurely swimming in a big pond of mighty ducks... including the Hope Horned Drake and a cubic Bozo Mudhen! It only takes one peek under water to see that little duck paddling like success is a matter of web feats and small bills! I just gotta give the little guys with big hearts a shot... like I did when I bought my first pair of horns designed by that PWK guy in Hope decades ago. They say you can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs... but those times when the grin goes from ear-to-ear for years-n'-years keeps me on the frontier.

Sure ServoDrive is much bigger with a longer reputation and a lot more bucks to attract better discounts and deliveries from critical parts suppliers... and Klipsch is WAY more so. I expect I will give Klipsch a shot when they finally get these new subs are available to end consumers. And if SVS and Klipsch subs fall before the onslaught of reality... then, thanks to you Seb, ServoDrive will probably have the next opportunity to decorate my back with a feathered shaft. To some, it may seem that I am a bit fast on the draw when I get an opportunity to put up or shut up. But any who knows me knows that in the end I get my monies worth or know the reason why... and share that knowledge with those who read this Forum.

Will I have to trot up to your showroom in Canada to get a demo of the top-of-the-line ServoDrive product? Hmmm, I am looking for a "Little Lamb to Slaughter" Smiley but this is all I found in the dark. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-03-2001 at 07:50 AM