Tom Adams Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Very true dgb. Another thing not mentioned here is that while the obscene coporate salaries get the press, it's the relenting pressure by investors of US coporations for those corporations to make "their numbers". Back during the Clinton years of an overly inflated stock market (which the experts kept warning us about and that the market would eventually correct itself), investors got hooked on the sugar high of 28% and 35% returns. Then when the market did it's correction, investors were, and have been, unwillingly to settle for realistic returns. This creates unrealistic expectations of, and incredible pressures on, CEO's & CFO's. Now, factor in that these CEO's & CFO's & COO's & whomever have their compensation tied directly to the companies' profitability and the rhetorical question that begs to be asked is: are they making business decisions for the good of the company/worker or for their own nest egg? I suggest it's the latter. At least once a month I'm treated to my dosage of "investor return" medicine by my company. And since I'm already on my soapbox , just prior to and during the Clinton years, our information society invested billions of dollars in eCommerce, the internet, computer software, etc. In many instances the only real product was lines of computer code. These small internet software companies got bought up and made hundreds of millionaires (more power to them, BTW). But what was the real benefit to our economy? Was there any real product produced? I suggest that it was all this internet frenzy that, while it made some folks lots of $$$, many investors were left holding the bag. And once the house of cards started to fall, the market corrected accordingly. Now for the irony...my wife is a financial controller for JCB USA. JCB is a solely owned corporation based out of the UK and they build heavy machinery. At the plant here they make backhoes only. JCB has plants in several locations and the backhoes built here are as good or better in build quality than any where else JCB builds them. And get this - the cost of manufacturing them is less than anywhere else. That's right. Backhoes built in the USA by American workers that cost less. Who says it can't be done? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 It's time for me to throw a couple of more cents into the pot. First let me qualify what I do for a living. I own and manage a company that builds high end homes, ...really high end homes, like mansions. My homes sell for 2 million and up. I do this because my passion for quality, and the costs associated with it would not allow my company to be competitive in a more mundane market. In the market we serve, quality counts foremost and cost is secondary. I must say that it is far more difficult to build a multimillion dollar home than to sell it. Why?, simply put, there are very few "craftsmen" left here in America, and I don't believe it is the result of lack of work. Somewhere back in the late 40s and early 50s it started to become fashionable for parents to be sure their children went to college, far more fashionable than a son or daughter following in their parents footsteps. Very few of these college educated children took up trades. Most of them chose a way of life that was far more white collar than blue. This trend has snowballed and accelerated through the years due to increased government aide and spending on institutions of higher learning. Here in Florida for example, until very recently, any kid who managed to graduate high school was guaranteed a college education by the State. It has come to the point where our system pumps out so many Bachelors Degree holders that the degree has become almost meaningless for advancement in the workplace, and people with MBAs are a dime a dozen....BUT!!! it is nearly impossible to find a highly skilled and talented young American trim carpenter, no matter what we are willing to pay. And for electricians?,there are two jobs out there for every licenced electrician here in Florida. So what has been our solution to this problem?...simple, we import labor from overseas, not to save money, but to just get the job done. We have carpenters and concrete workers from Mexico, roofers from Haiti, Trim carpenters and finishers from Canada, marble and tile setters from Viet Nam and China, along with a smattering of American workers who are for the most part losers, drunks or otherwise misfits. And what happens with the money they make? (and believe me, it is good money) I'll tell you what happens, they send it home to Mexico, China, etc. This is nothing new, it has been happening for decades and decades. Most of our railroad system built in the early 1800s was built by labor imported from overseas. So, I ask you how different is this from having a smaller item (such as a speaker) built over there in the first place? I have conversations with my wife every day about her profession. My wife is a nurse. I think probably everyone has heard that there is a nursing shortage in this country, a huge nursing shortage. Yet, it is rare to find many young Americans to fill the positions. It's certainly not because the pay scale is low, which of course it is not. Is it because nursing is not considered an honorable profession?, no ,it is because nursing involves something that really resembles work, and young Americans today would rather be employed in a position where the toughest "work" they have to do is punch a keyboard. So, I ask, how is the medical profession dealing with this?.... surprise! by importing nurses from other countries. See a pattern yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Yes, skilled craftsmen are hard to find, and I think part of it is socital and part of it is security. You hit the nail on the head on the first count (if I had it all to do over, I'd probaby become a German car mechanic. Break down all the time, expensive to fix, and very few people who can do it right). The striving for "benes", particularly health insurance, which it is very expensive to provide for small companies where physical labor is involved. Also, many craftsmen have to retire early due to disability. I know several people who were in various aspects of construction (electricians, masons, plumbers etc) who have had to retire before the age of 40 due to chronic, work induced injuries or catastrophic injuries. These aren't exactly guys who are wilting lillies either. And they really have very little to fall back on. The other biggy is retirement. It takes a very disciplined person, especially if that person is not wealthy, to set aside a certain amount of money a month for retirement. Many people find that at 50, after sending their kids through college that they have zippo left for themselves. I find myself in a similar situation, I'm a pretty decent cartographer and have GIS skills that don't exactly fall off of trees, but while I could probably earn double my salary in the open market, I would lose practically free health, dental and eye care for my family, 5 weeks of vacation a year, an excellent state retirement plan that matches what I put in (and is guranteed, unlike 401 type plans), %75 discout off of tuition for myself and my kids (a BIGGIE there). WHy would I leave? And yes, I work at a university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Just a couple of follow-up comments if I may.... JewishAmerPrince - very good points about the state of this country's lack of skilled craftsmen. I have friends in the home construction business and they've shared the same experiences you have. OTOH, the home we purchased recently was trimmed out by some good 'ol American boys that truly take pride in what they do. I told Mike that the wife & I were simply amazed at the trim work. I then told him what I believed to be one of the greatest compliments he could recieve. I mentioned to him that when the wife saw the custom built-in bookcase and double mantle fireplace, she literally teared-up. Mike shared with me that he is not only passing his knowledge on to his son, but letting him know that it's OK to be tradesperson. His favorite saying? "Tom....a nail is a nail. It doesn't know whether it's being used in a $50K or a $500K home. Quality is a state of mind." I work for an aircraft company that produces business jets in the 30 to 45 million dollar range. And finding local people with the necessary skills is just about impossible for exactly the same reasons JewishAmerPrince cites. In fact, our company has embarked on programs both at the trades level as well as at the secondary education level in order to ensure a supply of local talent. These programs have resulted in a major expansion of the local VoTech school and the creation of a new technical campus that's associated with Georgia Tech. It's kinda sad that our company has to spend money to do what our taxes should be doing. Anyhow, I completely agree that we, as a nation, don't tell our kids that it's OK not to go to college and that being a competent, quality trades person is acceptable. That's not what you do, but how well you do it. Lastly....recently, my parents' across-the-street neighbor passed away. He was nice old man and I always enjoyed chatting with him when I saw him working in his garage. He once owned a metal spinning business in New York, sold it, retired, and moved south. He still had a couple small spinning lathes in his garage and would make things for folks from time to time. The things he could create were amazing. He tried to teach me a few times and I did ok, but nothing like what he was able to do. Sadly, his son had no interest and so all that knowledge about metal spinning went with him to the grave. I've often thought how sad that was for him not to be able to pass along what he knew. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 JA Prince, you listed Aragon as being made in China. That is incorrect. All Aragon models are manufactured in California. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 ---------------- On 1/6/2004 11:56:35 AM Tom Adams wrote: Lastly....recently, my parents' across-the-street neighbor passed away. He was nice old man and I always enjoyed chatting with him when I saw him working in his garage. He once owned a metal spinning business in New York, sold it, retired, and moved south. He still had a couple small spinning lathes in his garage and would make things for folks from time to time. The things he could create were amazing. He tried to teach me a few times and I did ok, but nothing like what he was able to do. Sadly, his son had no interest and so all that knowledge about metal spinning went with him to the grave. I've often thought how sad that was for him not to be able to pass along what he knew. Tom ---------------- I find this last paragraph interesting in that just today, there is an article in the paper about man in the area that plays and repairs accordians. He so desperatly wants to pass his knowledge on that he is willing to give accordian lessons to any kids in the area for free as well as hold free classes and seminars on how to repair accordians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 DGB you said... Interesting thread. First and foremost, when you buy from China you are supporting a repressive, violent dictatorship. They police their own by tossing "bad" workers (read independent thinkers) in to prison. They imprison and execute their students who are working for a democracy. You support paying workers a substanance wage and also support slavery. Chinese workers are as good as any, but remember who is really benefitting. ================================================= I find most of what you say troubling. While China is not perfect, neither those of us who live in the USA are not as well. My reference is to a "police their own" has nothing to do with independent thinkers... More along the line of people who take pride in their work, and getting projects done, correct, and on time. You do not know me, or our intensions or business at all in this matter, and I find your reasoning insulting and unfair. "You support paying workers a substanance wage and also support slavery." We pay well above the average wage in the region...if you read my post, none of our employees are kids or slaves as you state. I do suggesst you look into California or Texas or other States that use itinnerant workers to gather your orange juice or if you eat any fast food at all, proably cooked it too. We have our own problems. Personally, I think the more we involve working and benefitting each other as countries, both economically and socially, we grow mutually together making the world a smaller place. While the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao was perhaps a disaster...OK, it was. It is 2004, and I assure you population wise, China has 2 people for every 5 persons in the world..India is a close second with 1 more. So thats 3 people out of everyone else in this world are either Chineese or from India. If we choose to be working toward a future where we do all get along, I suggest we open our communication and economic resources to make that happen on both sides. I do have a belief you do not go to war with people who you both benefit from and count on to produce goods and services. Interesting fears on this board.. F.E.A.R.= false evidence appearing real. Most German cars perform extreemly well and have unfortunantly kicked the USA'a butt for years service wise, performance wise, and what you pay for is what you get too, far above most American cars. Now the American buyer that treats it like a piece of crap gets what he gets too. Just like most Americans do, they buy expensive toys only to not keep them up to standard too. Go to Europe, you will see everywhere good to an almost showroom quality Mercedes Benz with say 300k-400K miles on them still in use, and 20 years old. It is very rare to see an American car that was made in the 70's and 80's today in great shape.(Especially one with this type of milage.) Most very highly skilled Craftmanship type workers in the trades will agree it is hard work. On top of that when you start out, you start for limited pay until you raise your level of expertise and years of apprentisship. (In most cases your journeyman union card.) Working as the guy who carries around all of your stuff, getting your lunch, getting told your a piece of crap and do not know anything daily as most union people do look at new people coming into their trades, I suppose is just like college freshmen rushing a frat house as jerks to screw with... This went out years ago. It is no longer looked at as "fun" or worth the hassle. When it is attached to your paycheck and self esteem at 18 - 24 yrs old, most will tell the union, just as thay have in recent years the frats, to go to he**. OK, so off my soapbox. Sorry, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. Maybe if you own your own business, sweat to make payroll as you start off, working basically for free at at first, spending every free dime you have holding on to a dream. And as you grow your own business to allow you to eat and sleep on your own merit getting bigger with little success and open up for new ideas and technologies... In other words looking at it from an owners point of view paying paychecks and looking out for not only yourslef but other workers in your company too...You might just might understand. Yes, sometimes business descisions have to be made for the success of what you build. Some things in the process are better made outsourcing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 IndyKlipschFan: I like the saying, "German cars are not reliable, but rather durable." I know of Audi Quattro's from 83 that have 200,000 miles on them, and still run fine - but at a high financial cost. Some of the Ford Taurus SHO's literally would fall apart, past repair, at 70,000 miles - and those were very expensive miles to get there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I know plenty about China thanks. While they are taking on the trappings of capitalism they certainly are not moving towards giving their people democracy, freedom of speech or intellectual freedom. Dissent is not tolerated. The legal system is a farce, there is no freedom of the press. China is not an asian version of some European Socialist state, it is a police state, an oppressive dictatorship, that is simply getting better at playing the international game in order to benefit financially. I have no doubt individual Chineese workers take great pride in their work and are basically no different than you or I, but I do have severe reservations about the government that they live under. __________________________________________ I find most of what you say troubling. While China is not perfect, neither those of us who live in the USA are not as well. My reference is to a "police their own" has nothing to do with independent thinkers... More along the line of people who take pride in their work, and getting projects done, correct, and on time. You do not know me, or our intensions or business at all in this matter, and I find your reasoning insulting and unfair. _______________________________________________ I'm not saying YOU are involved in slavery, but the government of China does have forced labor camps primarily involving political dissidents. _______________________________________________ "You support paying workers a substanance wage and also support slavery." We pay well above the average wage in the region...if you read my post, none of our employees are kids or slaves as you state. I do suggesst you look into California or Texas or other States that use itinnerant workers to gather your orange juice or if you eat any fast food at all, proably cooked it too. We have our own problems. _____________________________________________________ I'm not sure what numbers have to do with anything. Just because 2 of 5 people in the world live under a repressive regieme doesn't mean I have to like. India is a democaracy and should be in no way compared to China. They have their own social problems, primarily the caste system and the religious split, but the governments of India and China are as different as you can get. ___________________________________________________________ Personally, I think the more we involve working and benefitting each other as countries, both economically and socially, we grow mutually together making the world a smaller place. While the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao was perhaps a disaster...OK, it was. It is 2004, and I assure you population wise, China has 2 people for every 5 persons in the world..India is a close second with 1 more. So thats 3 people out of everyone else in this world are either Chineese or from India. If we choose to be working toward a future where we do all get along, I suggest we open our communication and economic resources to make that happen on both sides. I do have a belief you do not go to war with people who you both benefit from and count on to produce goods and services. ___________________________________________________ As to German cars, they will run forever generally, but they seem to have nagging little problems go wrong frequently. I know plenty of people that have had VWs, Audi's and BMWs run forever, but they are forever having little problems. Actually, check that, my friend just got a new BMW that has been in the shop 5 times in 6 months. So some of them are big too. Generally don't see too many German cars topping the reliability ratings either. Many are certainly excellently performing cars. ____________________________________________________________ OK, so off my soapbox. Sorry, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. Maybe if you own your own business, sweat to make payroll as you start off, working basically for free at at first, spending every free dime you have holding on to a dream. And as you grow your own business to allow you to eat and sleep on your own merit getting bigger with little success and open up for new ideas and technologies... In other words looking at it from an owners point of view paying paychecks and looking out for not only yourslef but other workers in your company too...You might just might understand. Yes, sometimes business descisions have to be made for the success of what you build. Some things in the process are better made outsourcing them. ____________________________________________________________________ I'm not exactly sure what this above paragraph is about. I do run a department here, and my livelyhood does depend on me running it well. Are you excusing yourself from paying foreign workers a fraction of what you'd need to pay American workers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 dgb I know plenty about China thanks. Indy... OK, So please tell us your version of your business you manage in China, how succesful it is, and how long you have done business there too? -------------------------------------------------------- dgb While they are taking on the trappings of capitalism Indy (Trappings... hmm I still think it is the best system in the world. Call me warped maybe, but people still come to the USA in hopes of achieving success year in year out, more so looking towards the American dream more than any country in the world. Hard work combined with a little luck and anyone can make something out of themselves. If you can't get here physically the next best option is to work for one. We provide English lessons for free and other things hard to explain. Then again you just assume the worst like they sleep in dirt huts and live outside the factory I am sure.) --------------------------------------------------------- dgb They certainly are not moving towards giving their people democracy, freedom of speech or intellectual freedom. Indy I think you misunderstand I have no control over the government to do any of this. I think they are, very slowely maybe, but your also dealing with people who have had a government system for thousands of years... So a lot older than we have. While I admire our legal system here, it is not neccessarily my place to tell others in a foreign land what to or not to do. ------------------------------------------------------------ dgb Dissent is not tolerated. The legal system is a farce, there is no freedom of the press. China is not an asian version of some European Socialist state, it is a police state, an oppressive dictatorship, that is simply getting better at playing the international game in order to benefit financially. Indy I am sure this is true because you have been in China especially the big modern cities and know all of this as fact! China does not have to nor wants to be a European socialst state. Hmm I think they are moving to be a part of the world, rather than hide from it, IMO. As far as the USA our own LA Cops were oppresive dictating right and wrong for years ... Oh and OJ was innocent too...I am sure! ------------------------------------------------------------ dgb I have no doubt individual Chineese workers take great pride in their work and are basically no different than you or I, but I do have severe reservations about the government that they live under. Indy So again your argument is with how they Govern themselves not the fact that you might even have or wish to purchase a product made in China. __________________________________________ IndyKlipschFan... I find most of what you say troubling. While China is not perfect, neither those of us who live in the USA are not as well. My reference is to a "police their own" has nothing to do with independent thinkers... More along the line of people who take pride in their work, and getting projects done, correct, and on time. You do not know me, or our intensions or business at all in this matter, and I find your reasoning insulting and unfair. _______________________________________________ DBG...I'm not saying YOU are involved in slavery, but the government of China does have forced labor camps primarily involving political dissidents. IndyKlipschFan... I think we call these prisons in the USA...they do forced labor like making license plates and pick up the trash around the highways here too. I think they broke the Political Laws we have on the Books. _______________________________________________ dgb "You support paying workers a substanance wage and also support slavery." Indy We pay well above the average wage in the region...if you read my post, none of our employees are kids or slaves as you state. I do suggesst you look into California or Texas or other States that use itinnerant workers to gather your orange juice or if you eat any fast food at all, proably cooked it too. We have our own problems. _____________________________________________________ DBG... I'm not sure what numbers have to do with anything. Just because 2 of 5 people in the world live under a repressive regieme doesn't mean I have to like. India is a democaracy and should be in no way compared to China. They have their own social problems, primarily the caste system and the religious split, but the governments of India and China are as different as you can get. IndyKlipschFan I suggest you re read the paragraph below...again and again! Personally, I think the more we involve working and benefitting each other as countries, both economically and socially, we grow mutually together making the world a smaller place. While the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao was perhaps a disaster...OK, it was. It is 2004, and I assure you population wise, China has 2 people for every 5 persons in the world..India is a close second with 1 more. So thats 3 people out of everyone else in this world are either Chineese or from India. If we choose to be working toward a future where we do all get along, I suggest we open our communication and economic resources to make that happen on both sides. I do have a belief you do not go to war with people who you both benefit from and count on to produce goods and services. ___________________________________________________ dgb As to German cars, they will run forever generally, but they seem to have nagging little problems go wrong frequently. I know plenty of people that have had VWs, Audi's and BMWs run forever, but they are forever having little problems. Actually, check that, my friend just got a new BMW that has been in the shop 5 times in 6 months. So some of them are big too. Generally don't see too many German cars topping the reliability ratings either. Many are certainly excellently performing cars. Indy I drive german cars, have many friends that also do. My experience is not the same. 5 times in 6 months sounds like a lemon car problem I wonder if this is the same guy than never washes his car, drives wrecklessly, and never changes fluids...or tires...and then complains. ____________________________________________________________ Indy OK, so off my soapbox. Sorry, this is not meant as a personal attack on you. Maybe if you own your own business, sweat to make payroll as you start off, working basically for free at at first, spending every free dime you have holding on to a dream. And as you grow your own business to allow you to eat and sleep on your own merit getting bigger with little success and open up for new ideas and technologies... In other words looking at it from an owners point of view paying paychecks and looking out for not only yourslef but other workers in your company too...You might just might understand. Yes, sometimes business descisions have to be made for the success of what you build. Some things in the process are better made outsourcing them. dgb I'm not exactly sure what this above paragraph is about. I do run a department here, and my livelyhood does depend on me running it well. Are you excusing yourself from paying foreign workers a fraction of what you'd need to pay American workers? What I am saying is a "job" may cost different prices in different places in this world. If your department under your control could be done at a fraction someplace else...maybe your own job should be examined or your department...to make the company more profitable if that is the goal.. And in a way it should be, to let the company compete and survive. (Lets not use cars or trucks to transport materials..Horses and goats are fine!!!) Just because say 800 workers lose thier jobs..they bring in 500 later, same plant, upgraded and with improved robotics. Today they provide a better product, more of it, and lower payroll. Under your definition, does it now mean it is a failure... I say No, it means it is a success. Those other people will re locate and survive on their own merits..As they should. Indy This is fun... keep it comming! In college, even though I am not quite a "save the world liberal" (Like all minds of mush in college today are, especially college professors seem to be.) I was a thoughtless sponge until I got out on my own, paying real taxes, starting a family, and making something of myself rather than ask for handouts. Today I am perhaps more conservative than most, and I feel the victumisation of most liberal thinking americans starts, with not being willing to go out and work for it. They want or even demand that government give it to them and everything else they can think up!! So sad!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 OK Indy, let me tell you where I am coming from. First, it is true I've not been to China nor have I run business operations in China. What I have is an extensive educational background in extremist governments and the international relations. I also come in contact with a fair number of people from China, whom have wildly fluctuating opinions on their country, usually depending on whether their parents are party members or not. I'll defer to you're knowledge of how their western contract business work, no problem. I am a registered Republican, but I suppose I stray from the party line in being reviled by businesses in this country selling out their employees and their nation by shipping jobs overseas to save a few bucks, or paying American workers crap wages w/ no benefits for full time work. If you can't run a profitable business in the United States, maybe you need to get out of business and let someone else give it a try. Companies are literally leaving this country not because they are NOT profitable, but becasue they are NOT PROFITABLE ENOUGH. That makes me ill. I think Micheal Moore has turned into blathering jack-*** these days, but his documentary Roger and Me is well worth watching. I don't have the time to go into a history lesson, but China is opening up to the west not because they are becoming enlightened, but rather beacuse they are heading towards financial ruin if they do not. Their limited regional partners cannot absorb their out put, their great benefactor (if sometime enemey) the USSR is no longer around. They desperately need to open up markets in Japan and the U.S. to prosper. So do they grant free elections, self determination? No, they put up Coca-Cola billboards and open McDonalds and declare themeselves to be enlightened. A few ponits. Communism and Maoism have absolutely nothing to do with the rule of China before the end of the Chinese Civil War. There is nothing Chinese about Marxism-Leninism. Traditional Chinese government was more along the lines of almost a lose confederation of regional warlords. Their lack of a strong central autority is one reason China fell under heavy western influence and imperial penetration in the 19th Century. Taiwan is also "China" (just ask the Red Chinese) but they are the remmenants of the Western, somewhat more liberal (wouldn't say democratic) forces of Chaing Kai Sheck. Where did I give the indication that the Chinese were living in dirt floored huts? They certainly aren't in the cities, but not becaue they make so much money they can afford luxury housing, but because housing is government provided with strict price controls. The higher or better connected within the party you are, the nicer your apartment. Per Capita income in China is only $4,700. That may be good relative to Mongolia or Bangladesh, but that doesn't make it good. When I say they are putting on the "Trappings" of capitalism, I mean that they are moving away from Soviet style, government controlled economies, but they business owners and employees are not gaining the benefits of this change. They certainly have not been granting any political or personal freedoms that are typically associated with capitalist countries. As a business owner, I am surprised you don't see the irony in having your products made in a non-competitive, governement controlled economy. Of course they can make cheaper products, they rely on businesses that pay low wages and are subsidized by the government. How much of the money you assign to wages actually get to the workers? Do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 OK Indy, let me tell you where I am coming from. First, it is true I've not been to China nor have I run business operations in China. Indy- Ok fair enough, so what you have is what you have read or heard, not experienced first hand. ------------------------------------------------ What I have is an extensive educational background in extremist governments and the international relations. I also come in contact with a fair number of people from China, whom have wildly fluctuating opinions on their country, usually depending on whether their parents are party members or not. Indy..Actually I agree with you on most of this as well. All I am saying is it IS changing the outlying regions are probably a lot more capitalistic than you realize. ----------------------------------------------- I'll defer to you're knowledge of how their western contract business work, no problem. I am a registered Republican, but I suppose I stray from the party line in being reviled by businesses in this country selling out their employees and their nation by shipping jobs overseas to save a few bucks, or paying American workers crap wages w/ no benefits for full time work. Indy- Also a republican. I happen to semi dissagree on your idea of company philosophy, it is the job of any company to make a product that the public wants at a profit to pay employees and keep the company going. When it is no longer profitable to pay a worker to screw on an 18 dollar an hour bolt..to a mainfraim... you need to look elsewhere. --------------------------------------------------- If you can't run a profitable business in the United States, maybe you need to get out of business and let someone else give it a try. Indy--- we have a very profitable business running with many employees in the United States. We have started from scratch in 1989 and are the third largest in the USA in our field. FYI, many do try to come into our business. We choose to dominate and get to #1 if possible. BTW we still manufacture things here too, FYI this is just a subsidary of of our business. ------------------------------------------------ Companies are literally leaving this country not because they are NOT profitable, but becasue they are NOT PROFITABLE ENOUGH. That makes me ill. I think Micheal Moore has turned into blathering jack-*** these days, but his documentary Roger and Me is well worth watching. Indy-- Michael Moore is a major liberal jack ***.. As we used to be in the GM Car business on my uncles side of the family since the 50's when our "pride union american workers" sent cars to the dealers not finished...not working..with parts in the backseat or trunk in the 80's. Mind you, these were new cars from the pride of american workers unions. We got out while the Hondas of the world and Toyotas were kicking our *** with better cars, better craftmanship, and lower prices. That said, some at the top of GM and other american businesses may be out of touch with reality. This happenes in any industry too. Music, politics, and business.. But any business is like a pyramid with workers at the bottom and someone running it at the top. ----------------------------------------------- I don't have the time to go into a history lesson, but China is opening up to the west not because they are becoming enlightened, but rather beacuse they are heading towards financial ruin if they do not. Their limited regional partners cannot absorb their out put, their great benefactor (if sometime enemey) the USSR is no longer around. They desperately need to open up markets in Japan and the U.S. to prosper. Indy..I understand this, college degree in hand, and love history. -------------------------------------------------- So do they grant free elections, self determination? Indy....Well it is an appointed election yes in many of the industrial sections. They work like if they were elected. They can be ruled out. It is not the China perhaps of your College years everywhere. ------------------------------------------------ No, they put up Coca-Cola billboards and open McDonalds and declare themeselves to be enlightened. Indy.. Yes we have tried this even in France. (And they still hate us..LOL) Perhaps it is us in the USA that view it as enlightened. I think they feel it is them that are getting "tuned in." Nothing funnier than having them say in broken english, "You want a USA Coke?" with a big smile like ahhh I have something from your culture I know you will enjoy...see we have it here too! with Pride!! -------------------------------------------------- A few ponits. Communism and Maoism have absolutely nothing to do with the rule of China before the end of the Chinese Civil War. There is nothing Chinese about Marxism-Leninism. Traditional Chinese government was more along the lines of almost a lose confederation of regional warlords. Their lack of a strong central autority is one reason China fell under heavy western influence and imperial penetration in the 19th Century. Taiwan is also "China" (just ask the Red Chinese) but they are the remmenants of the Western, somewhat more liberal (wouldn't say democratic) forces of Chaing Kai Sheck. Indy I understand all of this as well. ------------------------------------------------- Where did I give the indication that the Chinese were living in dirt floored huts? They certainly aren't in the cities, but not becaue they make so much money they can afford luxury housing, but because housing is government provided with strict price controls. The higher or better connected within the party you are, the nicer your apartment. Per Capita income in China is only $4,700. That may be good relative to Mongolia or Bangladesh, but that doesn't make it good. Indy...Well your thought of 2 dollars a day as slave labor like what can you do with that compared to my example of $18.00 screwing on a bolt american union person. Yes housing is provided in a way to Chineese depending on party affiliation. "housing is government provided with strict price controls. The higher or better connected within the party you are, the nicer your apartment." Hmm so section 8 housing or any other government program our liberals in DC also droll out isn't the same?? I suggest with saleries given to our own congressmen and women housing is vague but the same...just given in cash to ours. Ok I am stretching it. What I have seen in China is new housing lots of it. Now cars...Thats another matter. cars are very very scarce almost seems funny new beautiful highways and no cars to speak of anywhere. -------------------------------------------------- When I say they are putting on the "Trappings" of capitalism, I mean that they are moving away from Soviet style, government controlled economies, but they business owners and employees are not gaining the benefits of this change. Indy I dissagree they are doing this. But SLOW!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- They certainly have not been granting any political or personal freedoms that are typically associated with capitalist countries. Indy....Maybe in time. It takes a lot of time to change anything in China. But you do also not seem to recognise they are not a capitalist country. And choose not to be. This does not mean however, in business, they cannot adopt some capitalist business practices. ---------------------------------------------------- As a business owner, I am surprised you don't see the irony in having your products made in a non-competitive, governement controlled economy. Of course they can make cheaper products, they rely on businesses that pay low wages and are subsidized by the government. How much of the money you assign to wages actually get to the workers? Do you know? Indy.. I assure you everything in China is Very Very competitive. Last time I checked the Fed and our own USA government control some of our economy too. The products are not neccesarily cheaper products in and of themselves...the cost to make them is true. I assure you they are as good if not better in our case at the end of the day as those that were made here. As far as wages what we pay is what they get. It is not my duty to see what they do with it as it would be not yours in the usa to see if someone you employ uses it for food or a HDTV. They do get the full amount contracted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Well, that is why someone long ago invented the written word, so you can benefit from the experiences of others. While you may be relying on your singular experience with business men who are trying their hardest to impress you since you have money to give them, I'm relying on historians, diplomats, religious and political dissidents, lifetime residents and educators who have worked in China. There is a huge Chinese student body at Penn State and China's role in the world is often in the editorials page of the school paper and the topic of classes. Indy- Ok fair enough, so what you have is what you have read or heard, not experienced first hand. I agree, Unions have gone over the top, but that is mainly a reaction to what in the pre WWII days was flat out abuse of employees by owners. Miners and millers in this country weren't treated any better than the 13 year old girls in Thailand we keep hearing about. As a manager I've determined a few things. The better you treat your employees the better they work and the easier they make your job. The longer you keep employees, the easier your job is, and the more producive you become. Nothing kills production like having to constantly train new employees. I also do feel business owners who have benefitted from the American way of life should try to give back to Americans, not Thia's, Chineese or whoever. Now I understand it's not always possible to keep everything in the US (and I'm glad you have US plants), but sending entire companies overseas while maintaining only your H.Q. in the U.S., that's reprehensible. The unadulterated greed is also repulsive. I don't know how someone like Wal-Mart's CEO could, say, buy another Mercedes with his disposable income this month, while he has employees with families who have no health coverage or are unable to make ends meet with one job. Now I realize this is probably not you, and is not most business owners, but it does seem to be the attitude of a few of the biggest retail employers in this country. In the manufactuing sector, when they couldn't get their way, they just took their ball and went to Mexico. The Unions can't fight that. The other problem I have with places like Wal-Mart is their brutal employment practices allow them to slash prices and force other businesses out. That is the issue with the striking California grocery workers (or at least part of it). Their stores can't afford to pay them decent wages anymore since Uber Wal Marts are opening grocery stores. I've seen almost every local business in my town go under in the last 10 years due to national chains invading the area. The local department store, every local grocer, three electornics stores (one local left with BB and CC) a half dozen local record stores (2 left, struggling badly), local resturaunts are dropping like flies. The truly patheic part is people will go to Wal-Mart to save $.10 on 500 rolls of tissue. Going to Wal-Mart or Target is the highlight of some peoples lives. It's sad, and I guess we get what we deserve as a society. Indy- Also a republican. I happen to semi dissagree on your idea of company philosophy, it is the job of any company to make a product that the public wants at a profit to pay employees and keep the company going. When it is no longer profitable to pay a worker to screw on an 18 dollar an hour bolt..to a mainfraim... you need to look elsewhere. --------------------------------------------------- That's great and I appluad you efforts. All I'm saying is remember where you came from (America I'm assuming) and resist the urge to sell out your employees in order to make a few extra bucks, or even a lot of extra bucks. Indy--- we have a very profitable business running with many employees in the United States. We have started from scratch in 1989 and are the third largest in the USA in our field. FYI, many do try to come into our business. We choose to dominate and get to #1 if possible. BTW we still manufacture things here too, FYI this is just a subsidary of of our business. Yes, I agree Moore is a jack-***, that particular show I thought was good though. The US car industry had many problems. Lack of worker effort, union demands were one. But terrible designs, lack of imagination, low power/MPG, outdated platforms, those were owners/managements problems. You can't blame the worker for the Pinto, the Chevette, the 8 cylander engine with less HP than a Japanese 4 cyl, boat like handling. I find it amusing that while US companies have been moving manufacturing plats overseas, many Japanese companies are opening plants in the US. I used to have a Mitsubishi Eclipse, built in Tennesee . And let's not give the Japanese too much credit, their early entrees into the US market were junk that just happened to get really good gas milage. It wasn't until the mid-80s that Japanese quality was anything to write home about. Indy-- Michael Moore is a major liberal jack ***.. As we used to be in the GM Car business on my uncles side of the family since the 50's when our "pride union american workers" sent cars to the dealers not finished...not working..with parts in the backseat or trunk in the 80's. Mind you, these were new cars from the pride of american workers unions. We got out while the Hondas of the world and Toyotas were kicking our *** with better cars, better craftmanship, and lower prices. That said, some at the top of GM and other american businesses may be out of touch with reality. This happenes in any industry too. Music, politics, and business.. But any business is like a pyramid with workers at the bottom and someone running it at the top. ----------------------------------------------- Industrial sections? You mean worker elections? I'm talking about voting for representatives, presidents, like we do every November. I'm only 35, it hasn't been that long. : ) Indy....Well it is an appointed election yes in many of the industrial sections. They work like if they were elected. They can be ruled out. It is not the China perhaps of your College years everywhere. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, you were. Ok I am stretching it. What I have seen in China is new housing lots of it. Now cars...Thats another matter. cars are very very scarce almost seems funny new beautiful highways and no cars to speak of anywhere. -------------------------------------------------- You don't see them moving away from a Soviet Economy? You wouldn't be doing business there if they weren't. Indy I dissagree they are doing this. But SLOW!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- I know they aren't a capitalist country, that's what I've been saying! They are putting on this capitalist face in order to get business and trade from the United States and other western nations. But at the heart of it, it is still government controlled. At any rate, their chosen method of running their economy is no care of mine really, what I do care about is that they repress their people's religious, political and moral beliefs. They constantly menace Taiwan, and their is a line in the sand, so to speak, in the Formosa Straight. A Chinese attack on Taiwan means WWIII. I was glad to see China taking at least some interest in the North Korean problem, but they still are not doing nearly as much as they could. China could easily silence North Korea, but chooses not to. The Russians and Indians are also scared to death of them and have constant border conflicts with them. Indy....Maybe in time. It takes a lot of time to change anything in China. But you do also not seem to recognise they are not a capitalist country. And choose not to be. This does not mean however, in business, they cannot adopt some capitalist business practices. ---------------------------------------------------- Again, not questioning the quality of labor at all. Who do you deal with when you want to build somthing in China? Would you be concerned if you discovered that part of the labor were political prisoner who were not paid? Or perhaps if they were actually paying employees 1/2 of what you expected? It's their decision, but it is your money. (God, I feel like I'm back in college after this thread! Indy.. I assure you everything in China is Very Very competitive. Last time I checked the Fed and our own USA government control some of our economy too. The products are not neccesarily cheaper products in and of themselves...the cost to make them is true. I assure you they are as good if not better in our case at the end of the day as those that were made here. As far as wages what we pay is what they get. It is not my duty to see what they do with it as it would be not yours in the usa to see if someone you employ uses it for food or a HDTV. They do get the full amount contracted for. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 The Dali Lama from Tibet has a brother that also is very active In Chinese culture studies at Indiana University. IU also has a temple in Bloomington, In near IU. I know the story and understand real persecution too. Especially religious ones. A college room mate married a Chinese woman and she has not seen her parents since she also entered College and left for the USA. For all she knows they are dead. (mom was a college professor dad was a doctor). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The better you treat your employees the better they work and the easier they make your job. The longer you keep employees, the easier your job is, and the more productive you become. Nothing kills production like having to constantly train new employees. I also do feel business owners who have benefited from the American way of life should try to give back to Americans, not Thai's, Chinese or whoever. I agree. Sometimes those dollars get people freedom to do a lot more at home (like buy a bus or business and go back to do it) or also save to get them out of where they came from and come here. The Mexican people that did the tile on my house, for instance, took 6 years to get the whole family here mom dads cousins, etc., etc. At first sleeping 6-8 people in a 2 bedroom weekly hotel they held on to a lets make it in the USA dream. Now most have apartments a few houses. Their kids are learning the English they never did and staying here too. That's how I look at the many people who had the same desire at Ellis Island coming to the USA many years ago as immigrants. --------------------------------------------------------------- Now I understand it's not always possible to keep everything in the US (and I'm glad you have US plants), but sending entire companies overseas while maintaining only your H.Q. in the US, That's reprehensible. The unadulterated greed is also repulsive. I don't know how someone like Walmart's CEO could, say, buy another Mercedes with his disposable income this month, while he has employees with families who have no health coverage or are unable to make ends meet with one job. Lets go after a big target..WMT.. I happen to love the company, No I do not shop at WMT for everything either. But what is always debatable is progress good or bad. I guess I choose to just embrace it .. If you do not like it, support your "local mart" but remember an hourly job is just that, low to middle income just like the cashier at Walmart or McDonalds get over it. It is not meant nor was it ever meant to be a full time job with enough income to support a family of four. Do you think the kid at McDonalds also should get 50,000 a year for saying do you want fries with that too...?? I think you will find execs at WMT also drive American cars. There was probably no one in American business more PRO American than Sam Walton. That statement is unfair to his legacy. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Now I realize this is probably not you, and is not most business owners, but it does seem to be the attitude of a few of the biggest retail employers in this country. In the manufacturing sector, when they couldn't get their way, they just took their ball and went to Mexico. The Unions can't fight that. The other problem I have with places like Walmart is their brutal employment practices allow them to slash prices and force other businesses out. They are a giant they pass it on to you and I. What is so bad about that? ------------------------------------------------------------------- That is the issue with the striking California grocery workers (or at least part of it). Their stores can't afford to pay them decent wages anymore since Uber Wal Marts are opening grocery stores. I've seen almost every local business in my town go under in the last 10 years due to national chains invading the area. The local department store, every local grocer, three electronics stores (one local left with BB and CC) a half dozen local record stores (2 left, struggling badly), local restaurants are dropping like flies. Tell that to Wells Fargo or people who used to work from catalogs. Did the local drug store who also sold candy and was the post office notary and who knows what else survive when your stores in the 40's and 50's came in? No, they folded too. Just like most 5 and dimes. It is progress...or better said evolution of retain in and of itself. Again it is inevitable someone would move in and do the same as Walmart as just in time store stocking called Datamining pushed them far and above the regular stores. If it is selling in East Lansing send more product there. If not, move it to where it can sell. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The truly pathetic part is people will go to Walmart to save $.10 on 500 rolls of tissue. Going to Walmart or Target is the highlight of some peoples lives. It's sad, and I guess we get what we deserve as a society. I think they not only save 10 cents on a roll of toilet paper they also save on everything else. And no since you do not shop at one I assure you .. You can buy maybe 6- 8 rolls too... LOL Hey for some people going to a WMT or Target YOU say is the highlight of their day. To them it is a way to feed and clothe and buy things for their family and save money instead of 4-6 stores of inflated prices. Look at any city and look into ALDI to see a sleeper grocery store for the really low incomes. ------------------------------------------------------------- Indy- Also a republican. I happen to semi disagree on your idea of company philosophy, it is the job of any company to make a product that the public wants at a profit to pay employees and keep the company going. When it is no longer profitable to pay a worker to screw on an 18 dollar an hour bolt..to a mainframe ... you need to look elsewhere. --------------------------------------------------- That's great and I applaud you efforts. All I'm saying is remember where you came from (America I'm assuming) and resist the urge to sell out your employees in order to make a few extra bucks, or even a lot of extra bucks. Indy--- we have a very profitable business running with many employees in the United States. We have started from scratch in 1989 and are the third largest in the USA in our field. FYI, many do try to come into our business. We choose to dominate and get to #1 if possible. BTW we still manufacture things here too, FYI this is just a subsidiary of our business. Yes, I agree Moore is a jackass, that particular show I thought was good though. The US car industry had many problems. Lack of worker effort, union demands were one. But terrible designs, lack of imagination, low power/MPG, outdated platforms, those were owners/managements problems. You can't blame the worker for the Pinto, the Chevette, the 8 cylinder engine with less HP than a Japanese 4 cyl, boat like handling. I find it amusing that while US companies have been moving manufacturing plats overseas, many Japanese companies are opening plants in the US. I used to have a Mitsubishi Eclipse, built in Tennessee. And let's not give the Japanese too much credit, their early entrees into the US market were junk that just happened to get really good gas mileage. It wasn't until the mid-80s that Japanese quality was anything to write home about. Indy -- Michael Moore is a major liberal jack ***. As we used to be in the GM Car business on my uncles side of the family since the 50's when our "pride union American workers" sent cars to the dealers not finished...not working..with parts in the back-seat or trunk in the 80's. Mind you, these were new cars from the pride of American workers unions. We got out while the Hondas of the world and Toyotas were kicking our *** with better cars, better craftsmanship, and lower prices. That said, some at the top of GM and other American businesses may be out of touch with reality. This happens in any industry too. Music, politics, and business. But any business is like a pyramid with workers at the bottom and someone running it at the top. ----------------------------------------------- Industrial sections? You mean worker elections? I'm talking about voting for representatives, presidents, like we do every November. I'm only 35, it hasn't been that long. : ) Indy....Well it is an appointed election yes in many of the industrial sections. They work like if they were elected. They can be ruled out. It is not the China perhaps of your College years everywhere. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, you were. OK I am stretching it. What I have seen in China is new housing lots of it. Now cars...That's another matter. cars are very scarce almost seems funny new beautiful highways and no cars to speak of anywhere. -------------------------------------------------- You don't see them moving away from a Soviet Economy? You wouldn't be doing business there if they weren't. Indy I disagree they are doing this. But SLOW!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- I know they aren't a capitalist country, that's what I've been saying! They are putting on this capitalist face in order to get business and trade from the United States and other western nations. But at the heart of it, it is still government controlled. At any rate, their chosen method of running their economy is no care of mine really, what I do care about is that they repress their people's religious, political and moral beliefs. They constantly menace Taiwan, and their is a line in the sand, so to speak, in the Formosa Straight. A Chinese attack on Taiwan means WWIII. I was glad to see China taking at least some interest in the North Korean problem, but they still are not doing nearly as much as they could. China could easily silence North Korea, but chooses not to. The Russians and Indians are also scared to death of them and have constant border conflicts with them. Indy....Maybe in time. It takes a lot of time to change anything in China. But you do also not seem to recognize they are not a capitalist country. And choose not to be. This does not mean however, in business, they cannot adopt some capitalist business practices. ---------------------------------------------------- Again, not questioning the quality of labor at all. Who do you deal with when you want to build something in China? We build with plant managers...and our business partners. Just like we would here. --------------------------------------------------------- Would you be concerned if you discovered that part of the labor were political prisoner who were not paid? Or perhaps if they were actually paying employees 1/2 of what you expected? It's their decision, but it is your money. I think your insinuating a lot here..... Again your not there, I have been. I assure you people are paid..They have the freedom to do with their money just like you and I do here. Granted, maybe they wish they had a Walmart to save and get a lot of stuff too. LOL Sorry too easy!! ---------------------------------------------------------------- (God, I feel like I'm back in college after this thread! Me too.. On some of these issues I am sure we will agree to disagree. As adults, we have too. I respect your at least asking good questions... I am trying to answer them too, truthfully. One of the things I most miss about college are discussions like this... Where you can be honest and give opinions and not be afraid to ask tough questions or be challenged. Better yet, still be good friends afterwards ... over a late night pizza.. In this case yes the local pizza place was always better than Dominos...but closed at 12 am...so at 1-2 am you called dominos and said..wow should have ordered earlier. BTW that same small family owned place called Swing in Pizza is still alive in Bloomington...still doing good...started in like 1958. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 My big problem with Wal-Mart, other than their penchant for mis-labeling Made in the USA items, is that these service industry jobs used to be decent paying jobs. A full-time salesperson could at least support themselves decently, usually got vacation, possibly some health benefits. I know people who work at Wal-Mart. They are paid poorly, minimum wage, no benefits, and even forced to work "off the clock". Some are better, a couple people I know work at Kauffmans which takes decent care of their employees. So it is possible to be both profitable and charitable. The other issue is that the big box stores, while saving us a few dollars and putting everything under the sun in one building, certainly limits item choice. Electronics is a big example. 10 years ago I could have gone to one store to try out five or six different brands, a half-dozen at another, half-dozen somewhere else. Anything from bargain basement Realistic to top of the line Threshold. Now, I have Sony, Yamaha, Denon and utter crap, not to mention the knowledgable sales person of yore had been replaced by a teenager who thinks his Akai portable stero is the pinnacle of performance. Same with record stores. What was cooler than going to the records store, chatting up the owner or sales person, listening to new stuff over the stores system? Now you flip through endless shelves containing 5000 copies of each one of the top 100 CDs. Little from off the beaten path. You can only listen to maybe 10 or 20 CDs over cheap headphones. Salespeople don't even acknowledge you existance. I don't think it's an even trade off. At any rate, this has been informative and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Well it makes shopping easier. Ill take one receiver from column A, number 27, and 2 DVD players from column B, number 10. And dont forget the extra hot mustard and my fortune cookies. Next week I think Ill stop in on the World Electronic Buffet and really gorge myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimam81 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I bought a pair of RF-62's at best buy a while ago. When I brought them home I was so proud to see that on the box it says "Made in Hope, Arkansas", but, this joy got shattered in less than five minutes. After I opened the boxes and took out the beautiful speakers, I noticed the sticker in the back of the speakers says “Made in China” and it lacked the typical Klipsch quality control signatures by the employees!!! How is this possible? Was the cardboard box manufactured in Arkansas? I personally do not trust the products made in China. I spent most of my childhood overseas and I remember anything made in China was considered of very poor quality and nobody would go towards them. We still see it today even though the big brands who outsource the manufacturing claim that Chinese manufactured goods have high quality -- I don’t accept it. I think the workers in America are more responsible than workers in China. My mom has been using the same American made refrigerator for over 35 years and it still works fine; do you think a rebadged Chinese made fridge would last even 10 years? In America we want quality and money, but in China they want only the money! It is in very sad to see Made in China lables on Klipsch Speakers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest srobak Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Before you condemn them - plug em in and take a listen. Also check out some recent discussion we had in this thread: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/102543.aspx?PageIndex=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiwiiwhat Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 To me, it does matter where they are made. And I'm currently in the market. Looking at '82's and 63's. Sound will always be the driving factor, but it does matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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