GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hello, I was wondering what to set the the subwoofer at. I am running a Onkyo 545 receiver that is digital ready as it only has the multi channel inputs for 5.1. What I use to power the sub(klipsch ksw 200) is the sub out on the receiver does anyone know for sure if on the Onkyo 545 receiver uses any kind of cutoff like 80hz or 100hz? on that output. I set the cutoff on the sub to 60hz as my mains go down to 45hz. But was thinking that if Onkyo cutsoff the fq in the sub-out that I should run the lowpass cutoff on the sub wide open 140hz. There is know real bass management on that receiver other then how loud I can set the subwoofer from with-in the reciver. What do you think. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 george, whether u set the speaks to large or small on the onk is the bass management. i don't want to get started on another rave about receiver makers, but w/ your connection u really have to move the ksw cross all the way to at least 120hz or u could cut-off lfe. how u set the other speaks (large/small) only effects low bass, not lfe (though u may have an lfe control on the onk but still best to send all lfe to sub only imo). most likely the low bass cut-off to the sub on your onk is 80hz (thx specs). might say in your onk manual. regardless, if u have large mains it's still too high at 80hz. & most of the receiver makers are in denial over it in not putting an adjustable filter in their bass managements. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-15-2001 at 06:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 george, after rereading your post i shoulda made clear that lfe is not affected by those large/small settings. all lfe runs unfiltered to your sub out as it's a seperate channel (see file attached). hence the problem if u have your ksw cross in too low as lfe is speced up to 120hz. u should notice more lfe impact as u move the ksw cross up to 120hz. however, setting certain channels like your fronts to small or large does affect whether the onk does or doesn't cut off those channels low bass at it's set level (probably 80hz or so) respectively. hope that's clear. bass mgmt. is probably the most confusing aspect of home audio. This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-15-2001 at 07:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi Boa12, Thanks for your response. Ok this may help On the Onkyo545. There is no real bass management. No large or small for the front or back it's a pro-logic receiver with 5.1 external decoder inputs.The manual don't mention a thing about the sub-out,output as far as cutoff it just tells ya to plug in the subwoofer there. I do have a DVD player hooked to the 5.1 decoder inputs and do use the bass management in the DVD player as it does have a onboard decoder. Mains set to large rears set to small center set to small level set with Radio Shack SLP meter, C weighting Response set to slow. and all sounds great when viewing DVD movies. But CD's (music)just don't sound like I think it should. No kick to them (The sub is working)Dull and muddy may be a better way of putting it,but with movies theres all the slam I want and then some. I hope this helps you understand my setup a little better maybe you can see something I'm missing.George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 george, yes then your dvd is doing the same bass mgmt. probably using the same 80hz on low bass hence for analog cd music both your sub & fronts are covering a lot of the same low bass like (40-80hz) hence the muddiness. you're still in the same boat there as me & many others. u could set the fronts to small in the dvdp & see if that helps for music. shame if u have bigger fronts though. what do u have for front speaks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htxpert Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi I for one am a firm believer in setting your speakers to small unless you have true full range speakers.I use a small setting even with my KLF-30's as they are not true full range speakers To do this you must have very capable subs,but the results are truly remarkable.Like BOA said if you use your receivers internall xover I would set the cross over at a higher level than the receivers to minimize xover phasing.This also lightens the load on a lower powered receiver and gives you more head room.Placement and proper calibration are a must with this approach,otherwise you will be able to localize where the Low Freq are comming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 ray, which sub u using w/ your 30s? my hgs-18 is great in the 1st octave to like 40 or 50hz, but the klf-30 are so much better in the 50-100hz range that i keep going back & forth on that 5 channel stereo cd music. guess i'll settle here some day ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Boda12. For fronts I have Vintage Infinity RSb They have a 10" woofer 6 1/2" mid and a real nice emit ribbon for the tweeter. 45hz to 45khz. 4 ohms. output is good sound stage is very open very clean. I really don't know what the receiver does with the lfe ch cause it ends up being output to the sub-out on the receiver. george Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 Nice work attaching the pfd Dolby info. I think it fails to make somethings clear. First of all, they are talking about Dolby Digital encoding and storage. In that set-up the media, i.e DVD or the film, has six discrete audio channels. The 0.1 there in the storage media is the LFE channel which the engineer mixes in. (That is not true of the analog matrix system on VHS, which has just two discrete channels for storage, left and right.) The output of the Dolby Digital decoder in the HT receiver or whatever, has six discrete channels corresponding to what is recorded in the six discrete channels. We then feed that to the audio processor at home. If you have a sub at home, the LFE channel should find its way to the sub via the processor. However, if no sub, the LFE channel is being sent to where ever the "normal" bass is going. That is usually the mains set to large. But per the pdf post, the LFE channel goes up to 120 Hz. I question may be, "But what happens when my sub only starts working at 80 Hz? Where does the range from 80 to 120 Hz go?" This I don't know, and it may depend on the processor. I'll look some things up. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 06-15-2001 at 07:41 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 gw, your dvdp would then send all lfe (speced up to 120hz) to your sub as well as low bass for any channel set to small. your onk just passes thru everything it gets. This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-15-2001 at 07:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 gil, thanks. in almost all cases the processor sends all LFE, & also all low bass for a channel set to small, to the sub out w/ the receiver sub:yes designation. that's my attempted point. if u then put in the sub crossover below say 120hz, then some of that LFE or low bass (or it's intensity) just goes away to nowhere. that's another good reason not to use both receiver & sub crossovers/filters together. or if one does, watch out where u set the sub's crossover. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-15-2001 at 07:51 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi Ray, Yep I did try all set to small but the sub I'm running is the Kilpsch KSW 200 12"woofer 200watt amp it's the older one thats the same size as the ksw15 is now. Output is ok but Ok but it don't go that low 29hz soI really need to run the fronts at large to get the output I want for movies. I had this setup a few years and I guess I'm really just trying to tweek the system. Thanks! George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Boda12. Thanks again! What your saying makes sense to me. I'll try settin the sub to 120hz and see.. Now forget about 5.1 and what about stereo if my receiver is cuting off at say 80 or 100 hz to the sub output on the receiver.( Do you think it is ) would it make sense to set the sub to at least the same 80 to 100hz even though my mains go down to 45hz? What's you feeling on this? For music that is. George This message has been edited by GW on 06-15-2001 at 08:06 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Gil, It will be interesting to see what you find out. Thanks! George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 gw, because they have this set 80hz or so cut on low bass, for music low bass the only real fix is to set your fronts small & let your sub run full out. your sub goes much lower & more powerfully there than your mains. u'll get seemingly more bass w/ the fronts set large w/ the fronts & sub working together from like 40-80hz, but it's not good quality (standing wave, muddiness). ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 15, 2001 Author Share Posted June 15, 2001 Boa12, I'll see if I have a chance to give that a try tomorrow for 5.1 That is to set the front to small open the lowpass on the sub all the way.but for stereo I can't cause my receiver won't let me. For reg. stereo But I'll turn up the fq on the sub to something around 100hz and maybe set the level down and see how that sounds with music.. What do you think? Thanks! I'll let you know how I make out..George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htxpert Posted June 15, 2001 Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi All Boa,I am running 2 ea Genesis 928 subwoofers in the front,and 1 ea VMPS Large in the back (activated only for wow effect)GW, The key here is More Bass or better Bass.I would bet if you played around with placement of your KSW200 you could do better.It might be that your listening position is located in a room null here is a quick and dirty trick to find good room responce for your subwoofer place your subwoofer at the listening position. Activate the receivers test tone generator for the subwoofer.Now I know this sounds funny but crawl on your hands and knees while the test tone is running. You will hear Low Freq test tone raise and lower as you change your position throughout the room.This is because the Low Freq's are interacting with the room modes.Pick out a couple of spots where the bass sounded like it has a lot of energy and remember them now if the KSW200 has a Phase switch on the back ( I cant recall) put it in the 180 position and do the same thing.Place the subwoofer at the best logicall position and recalibrate it with your SPL meter Also note that some Onkyo receivers have a bug in there LFE test tone generator for absolute reference they are off by -3 to -10db depending on the model The use of Avia or Video Essentials is better to use than the internal test tones.This verifys the complete chain of gear used to calibrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 ray, that's some nice bassage u have there. curious on using the phase switch on a sub bass tone(?) thought that sub phase is mainly to blend w/ the other speaks, mainly the fronts. & watch out for that avia disk. they didn't put the sub test on the lfe so u have to set your fronts to small to get any sub output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWklipsch Posted June 16, 2001 Author Share Posted June 16, 2001 Ray, Ya great info about setting up the sub. That's how I found the spot I have it in now. The only thing I didn't do and will try is the Phase switch . If I'm reading this right what you saying to do with the Phase switch will even give me more placement options then I had at 0 phase. I never thought of that. The only thing I used the phase switch for was to see if I could get more bass after placement. Great post Ray! Thanks George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htxpert Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 Hi All Yes phase switch should only be use to blend LF with the mains,but for reasons I can explain and dont understand we have found that changing phase on severall different models of subs including Klipsch accually gave us a net db gain either at 0 or 180 I have no idea why,anyone know? Bob? PS I have a tweek for the KLF 30 that I didnt find in the archives if anyone is interested its a trade off type tweek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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