PING HornEd...again!

[fini]

Ed, check your PM & email!

[HornEd]

Pong, fini, only this time I sent Jorjen a clear path to these vintage beauties and wished him well. If I were to only have one pair, this well could have been the ones to have. I am sure he appreciates your not doubling up this week and going for a four cornered Heritage frenzy! Thanks for the HornEd head's up! -HornEd

PS: The phrase game calls for SEVEN words (or more) and, whilst in the heat of the fray, you referenced only six words were required. Could this be a ***** in your legendary intellectual "armoire?"... or refer to a leather bondage set of winning word game words by Lenny Bruce?... or just an old woodhecklers "tongue-in-groovy" shot at understated numerical humor?

Edit: Hmm, webmaster in mid "Greggorian" chant placed asterisks where a pun of a cliché was... the star-crossed uglified word represents a "gap" in one's armor (which I made armoire in honor of fini's carpentry skills). It sounds like a political correctness issue... but then again I have become so old that I still remember "gay" as a ubiquitous expression of simple happiness with one's life. And, perhaps, it still is... but people look at me in funny ways when it slips onto my tongue that was formed in the '30's. No, fini, not 1830's!

[gtDark]

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On 3/12/2004 9:50:01 AM HornEd wrote:

(snip) It sounds like a political correctness issue... but then again I have become so old that I still remember "gay" as a ubiquitous expression of simple happiness with one's life. And, perhaps, it still is... but people look at me in funny ways when it slips onto my tongue that was formed in the '30's. No, fini, not 1830's!

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Kinda off-topic, but what you said reminds me of this old ad I saw. That site has some pretty funny stuff. Before my time, but still entertaining.

[HornEd]

As a native San Franciscan who raised "mixed-race" (what ever that is supposed to mean since we all seem to be mongrels) children and who spent more than a little time in "HotLanta" (as some people called the home of Georgia Tech)... and trust that you will become a **** of an engineer! -HornEd

[fini]

Ed,

I was referring to the post above me (ouch) which only used 6 words.

[HornEd]

Oops, my "brain dead" count on "grain-fed" as one word... which would have given you six words in the post above the six word one you noted. Hmm, I wonder how this game would be as a 7-11 quickie challenge... at least seven words but no more than eleven?

Speaking about challenges, our Forum Ambassador of Jazz, Alan Songer has created an inspired randomnicity challenge all on his own... although methinks he would like to see "THE END" of this tacky tale. It sure was nice of Allan to offer you a reprieve from your tone arm-twisting (c'est fini) disaster on Khorn day at your house.

He's always seems to have a twinkle in his eye and a cool point of view. I hope he didn't take offense at my working his odd set of words into a storyline. -HornEd

[Bill Shackelford]

Ed,

I've been reading the Forum for a couple of weeks now and it seems as if you are pretty knowledgeable on Klipsch horns.

I want to pass this by you. I am looking for a suitable center for my front mains Khorns. The Forum says RC-7 won't match in timbre and will disappoint if used with Khorns. So, I've been researching Heresys and Cornwalls for a possible custom center using their guts and building a new enclosure. My idea is a 12" woofer/mid-hi horns/12" woofer horizontal arrangement with Heresy or Cornwall horns(tweeter horn on top the mid horn), and 12" Heresy woofers using the Heresy or Cornwall crossover.

I have 40-42" horizontal space to work with on top my 65" RPTV. I want to keep height to a minimum, maybe 11-14". Would a horizontalized Heresy or Cornwall horn section with a 12" woofer outboard on both sides be a good match with the Khorns as front mains? Does the Cornwall have bigger or better horns? I know the Heresy mid and tweeter drivers are the same as the Cornwalls drivers from Klipsch's specs.

Do you have any ideas on enclosure dimensions to give an optimal sound to the above arrangement? Do you know where I can find a single Heresy or Cornwall to use for the new enclosure? I really want to match the Khorns with impact for the Center channel speaker. They are phenomenal for DVD movies and SACD/DVD-A music.

I have 200 watts RMS (100W L + 100W R)available in a stereo amp for Center power. How can I wire this stereo amp to the new center to make use of the full 200W available?

Please advise.

[avman]

you should be able to buy the drivers for a new heresy2 from klipsch. if you want new, call klipsch and see.

avman.(waiting on his 2004 heresy2 to use as center channel between 1982 cornwalls)

[HornEd]

Hey Bill...

This is a busy time for me so my answer will be, perhaps, too short. The closest "small" speaker to approach the Heritage sound is an Academy (which I used briefly as the 6th speaker in a 6.1 Heritage system). As I have stated in several other posts, after patenting the Klipschorns and then discovering Bell Labs three-channel stereo concept, the late Paul Klipsch devoted much of his time to solving many of the same kind of center channel issues as you are now facing. After the Khorn, ALL of the current "Heritage" line designed by PWK to be centers for a pair of his legendary corner horns.

The best compromise is a LaScala or Belle (the latter was a WAF version of the LaScala and what PWK kept in his house until the day he died). The Klipsch Belle has also been my favorite center... until now that I am building a six Khorn rig. Several people have worked with splitting bass bins and putting the tweeter and mid-range horns above a screen. But, in your case, an RPTV does not allow a good place for a bass bin to be... at least from a cosmetic point of view.

Do to the placement of the components, inverting a Cornwall (to keep the horn tweeter on a better level with your ears) on a support shelf above your RPTV can work... if the aesthetic factors are within your parameters. An inverted LaScala or Belle would work even better. Generally speaking, it is hard to replicate the big folded horn sound of your corner speakers with speakers that have far less cubic inches inside... particularly if the smaller speaker is not ported.

Some of the smaller towers in the Heritage line have been converted to center channels by replacing the motor board that has been horizontalized. Got to go now. -HornEd

[Bill Shackelford]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the quick response. I don't have room for a LaScala or Belle because I have a horizontal bridge over my RPTV that connects the two towers (Lord of the Rings maybe) of my cherry wood entertainment system. I have maybe 15-16" of height and 40-42" of width to accommodate a center. That is why I was thinking of horizontalizing a Cornwall or Heresy and adding another woofer for a balanced arrangement like the Academy. I saw an Academy on EBay, but decided I wanted a three-way center to better match the Khorns. I'm not so worried about folded horn bass sound from the center as the Khorns pretty much cover the room for low bass.

I want a real good localization of center dialog and effects (also for music when playing SACD and DVD-A disks) using mid and tweeter horns, with some decent bass support on each side, either 8" or 12" woofers matched to Heritage horns.

What do you think about me buying La Scala mid and tweeter horn drivers and horns, and the crossover from Klipsch, and making a horizontally stretched enclosure for the horns with a 12" woofer (from a Heresy maybe) on either side of the horns and use the La Scala crossover for the whole arrangement? Are the Heresy/Cornwall horns the same? Are they smaller than the La Scala/Belle horns? The Klipsch specs indicate the drivers are prety much the same for the Belle/Cornwall/Heresy. It seems that only the bass is different.

My original idea was to buy a Heresy, take out the horns and crossover and mount them in a newly designed enclosure with the tweeter over the mid (a la Belle or La Scala), then put a 12" woofer on either side (a la Academy) and juice everything with 200 watts RMS. Would this work?

Think about it and get back to me when you have more time. I value your opinions. You seem to know and understand the Heritage line, and what would match up for a center. Again, a La Scala or a Belle is not an option for me right now for a center (WAF and no space!).

Thanks,

Bill

[HornEd]

Bill,

Just as the Left & Right Mains are the key to Stereo CD enjoyment, the Front Center, is the key to DVD enjoyment since that is where over 75% of the sound is directed. For music, Paul W. Klipsch had Khorns in false corners and a Belle in the middle using the three-channel stereo effect developed by Bell Labs. Bringing the mighty Khorns to play in the DVD world requires something that can hold the spotlight with the Khorns in a support role.

That is not an easy task and is why my hero, Q-man, and I have gone to Khorn centers and surrounds. The smaller Heritage speakers will fit your dimension profile better but are not likely to have enough raw cubic interior volume to timbre-match your corners as closely as you may like. You might try a Chorus turned on its side as a ready-made fill in that would meet your dimensional requirements.

Building a custom enclosure to do justice to filling in the center for SACD and then taking on the star role for DVDs is not an easy task particularly since you have the most seasoned classic of any continually produced speaker in the history of the world gracing your corners.

While I have used two 12 woofers tight on a stack of mid-range and tweeter horns on my Legends Theater, using a single woofer in a folded corner laid out horizontally to go atop an RPTV seems like an interesting challenge and one that your query prompted. That would theoretically provide the maximum cabinet volume since the woofer would be facing away from the front, thereby allowing for the mounting of vertical horn for the mid-range (tighter center image) and the horn tweeter to be mounted horizontally. The task would be easier using a 15 woofer like the larger Heritage speakers voiced to be centers for the Khorns but your dimensional constraints would require a 12 woofer at the max. Hmm, this is a configuration I would like to brainstorm with HDBRbuilder.

Building a new fully horn-loaded enclosure for the center that will do justice to Klipschorn Mains is a monumental challenge that would ordinarily require more luck than an average mortal may be entitled to or a skill set that few Forum folk are likely to have. Never-the-less, it is a fascinating answer to making the most of Khorns in a Home Theater environment. HornEd

PS: While dual woofers in a center are desirable to pump up the audio power, they should be mounted as close together as possible to provide better center imaging. I fact, some of the later horizontilizations in which I have assisted mount the woofers immediately adjacent and put the horn tweeter and midrange in the space created above and below the near touching diameters of the woofers.

[Bill Shackelford]

Ed,

I'll check out a Chorus. Thanks for the suggestion. What do you think about two Heresys laid on their sides head to head (horns to horns) with the woofers outboard on either end. I could run the Left channel of my stereo amp to one, and the Right channel to the other. Would the horns not blend well with each other from the two touching cabinets? Maybe I could cut the leads from the crossover to one set of horns and just use the other horn set with the two active woofers.

I really would like to have a horn loaded 12" woofer in a horizontal enclosure as you envision. Firing backwards with two front horn mouths a la Khorns and the vertical mid in the middle off the two base horn mouths with the tweeter horn horizontal as you suggest. I think this is a design Klipsch should take up and make for us Khorns owners who want a compact center that can keep up with the Khorns front mains.

In order to get something going, I'm inclined to find a Heresy pair and try one , or both on their sides as a center until I can build something better.

Let me know if you have any other thoughts after talking to your builder friends.

Thanks