Small speakers OK for rears/rear center?

[jephdood]

I'm setting up a new theater configuration and was wondering how much driver power is needed in a 7.1 setup for the rears and the rear centers? I'm trying not to break the bank, so if I can utilize a little of what I already have, the more I and my bank account will appreciate it.

Currently I've got a small 5.1 setup in another room used for mainly TV watching and movies consisting of a pair of older KG 3.2's as mains, an RC-3 II at center, and two quintets on stands in the rear. The quintets seem to do an okay job with what they're given to do.. In other words, it doesn't seem that rear channels get much action.. Mainly ambient sounds in the rear.

I keep hearing scenarios where people are putting RF-7's (or similar) at the 4 corners for theater and something else large still at rear center in 7.1. Well, in the 5.1 setup I have now, I know the rears don't really get a whole LOT of sound demand, so I'm wondering if maybe the quintets might still be useful as rears or rear centers in a 7.1 setup, or if I should bite the bullet and get something larger.

I plan on a system with RF-35's in the front, an RC-35 at center, and a pair of RB-35's in the rear along with the quintets if they might still be useful in this setup. I have a HSU VTF-3 MKII for the bass.

Or, in another possible scenario.. Anybody use Klipsch bookshelves as mains in a theater? What kind of performance do you get, assuming they're paired with a decent sub?

Thanks for the input, guys. I love this forum!

[doudou]

why not buying some bigger KG and seting your KG 3.2 for rears?

so you can sell your quintet.

you should buy another center for timbermathcing with the KG.

[doudou]

it s cheaper than buying a full RF-35 system.

in fact you only need 2 front and maybe a center, not 5 speakers.

[jephdood]

I would love to have a complete "KG" set. I love the sound of my 3.2's. But it's next to impossible to find everything these days since the line was stopped about a dozen years ago. I'd like to be able to find a pair of 5.5's or 5.2's and a KG2.2V at center or, even better, a third 5.5 or 5.2 up front as the center.

[doudou]

if it s so hard to find i think you won t have to choose.

the best would be to have 5 RF-35 or 4 rf35 and your center but it might be a little bit expansive.

go for the RF 35 as main and 2 rb 35 if you cannot purchase 4 rf35.

[doudou]

i see you may want to use bookshelves speakers for main...why not.

you can buy 5 RB-35, so you will have a perfect timbermatch, and you can buy a klipsch sub in order to fill the little bass gap( like a RW12).

you can sell all youspeaker system to save some bucks or set it in another room.

[HornEd]

Just got a few minutes for this, jephdood, but if you are setting up a Home Theater it follows that DVD's will be your prime source. If so, it makes sense to look at the audio characteristics of current and future DVD audio engineering.

A Dolby Digital DVD can produce sounds as forceful as 121.5 dB at 20 Hz now thats very, very LOUD!!! But, many natural sounds have components that reach high levels for a fraction of a second not long enough for you to be aware of how really loud it was but long enough to register the sound as being natural. Thus, the true bass gap is between 121.5 dB @ 20 Hz and however low your subwoofer scrapes.

The common practice for audio mixers of DVDs is to put upwards of 75% of the TOTAL audio on the front center track. Why would anyone want their center speaker to be anything less than the best speaker in their rig? Sadly, the answer is that they want something small that will go on top of their TV.

If you are one of the wimpy center speaker crowd (as recommended by most audio manufacturers), pick you favorite DVD movie and play it through your rig with your receiver set to a phantom center (where the left and right mains simulate your having a center that isnt there). Then you must sit exactly in the center of the audio sweet spot in your listening area. Play the DVD. Now you will get a better idea of what a center that matches your left and right mains would sound like.

Of course, having something in the center that truly meets the quality of your left and right mains broadens the effect over a much larger area. Not only do I put my money where my mouth is I put my best speaker where the action is in the front center!

And beware, Forum Friends, of the timbre-match myth that audio sales tracks use to pitch grossly dissimilar speakers as timbre matched timbre is essentially the voice characteristics of a speaker. Any differences in speaker design can cause a difference in timbre between one speaker to the next. Positioning and the resulting acoustic variances in a particular listening area will vary the timbre of identical speakers mounted in a 5.1 (or above) configuration.

Lets face it it is very difficult to design a speaker for the center that has half the cubic inches (and, perhaps, no porting) that the main speakers have. Play some pink noise on your rig and set it to rotate the sound around your system. Listen as the sound moves from speaker to speaker do you hear it the same continues sound? Of course not, your rig isnt quite as timbre matched as it was cracked up to be!

Is it true that there is far less material sent to the surrounds and rear speakers? Yes, indeed! In a 5.1 DVD, there are only two discrete channels in the rear array the left and right surrounds. In a 6.1 DVD (Gladiator was the first for DTS), there is an extra discrete channel for the rear center. Most better quality receivers derive a unique sixth channel from extracting audio characteristics from the left and right discrete surround channels. And 7.1 is sort of a marketing ploy since it does not add another discrete channel but rather splits the sixth channel into two identical channels.

Unlike rear channels in the ProLogic era, all five (or six) discrete channels on a DVD are full-range. That means that bipole, dipole or tripole (WDST) speakers are no longer needed to create an artificial illusion of ambience. Audio engineers can now mix as much "ambient" sound characteristics in these full-range audio tracts to create the audio illusion necessary for the movie story line. Many times this consists of background or mood music... something that sounds a whole lot better on full range monopoles that match the front array... at least IMHO!

The purpose of a 7.1 rig is to accommodate very large rooms by putting an extra rear center speaker a way to sell speakers but rarely needed in most situations. And remember, the rear center probably gets less sound directed to it than any other speaker and some manufactures suggest that you ought to have two usually wimpy rear centers with little audio action and one wimpy front center that has to deliver to your ears over 75% of the action!!! Its the sort of phenomenon that makes one look up the true meaning of the word incredible. HornEd

[doudou]

that s exactly why it s better to have 5 identical bookshelves speakers than having 2 big mains,a center and 2 small rears.

with 5 rb-35 all speakers are the sames.furterhore,using a bookshelf speaker as a center can be easier than using a floorstanding speaker as a center.

[HornEd]

D'accord mon ami doudou... easier... and cheaper... but not necessarily better. -HornEd

[doudou]

when i speak about perfect timbermatch,i mean perfect timbermatch the way it should be and not the way speaker sellers think it is.

5 identical speaker is better than 5 different speaker,that s exactly what you said.

so 5 rb 35 should be better than 2 rf 35 for main,a rc3 for center and 2 quintets sat for rears.

and the rb 35 goes down to 45Hz which is better than many floorstanding loudspeakers(even heritage speakers like the lascala,belle or heresy don t goes so deep!!)

is there another thing that i have not understand yet??

[doudou]

of course it s better to have 5 identical floorstanding speakers.

we agree on this point.

[HornEd]

I think you understand the basic timbre matching and full-range discrete multi-channel concept very well, doudou. My comment was that a horizontalized floor standing speaker as a center generally produces a quality of movie sound that bookshelf speakers cannot attain due to the differnce in cubic inches (or centimeters as you prefer).

Frankly, on most of the HT's that I build, I limit the multi-channel speakers to frequencies above about 85 Hz. Not having to make the long excursions for low notes gives the speakers a much better potential to handle fast music in the midrange... and the difference in timbre matching between floor standing and elevated horizontal speakers is minimalized when frequencies below 85 Hz are produced by the sub.

Frequencies below 85 Hz are better produced by a quality subwoofer, IMHO. -HornEd

[doudou]

i thought that the volume of a speakers influats mostly on low frequencies(and on low mid frequencies).so if the sub make all frequencies below 85Hz it should be ok with a good bookshelf speaker.

i agree on the fact that all under 85 can be made by the sub because these frequencies cannot be located.so if we don t play these frequencies on the speakers they can "breath" better.

i m thinking about one thing:

we must horizontalised the horn of the speakers if we turn the speaker of 90degrees, mustn t we?

[HornEd]

Oui, mon ami, mais... only if you have a large room. A vertical midrange horn will tend to center the sound in the screen... and for a center speaker... that's a good thing for a smaller room. -HornEd

[doudou]

hehehe...it s very clever!

[jephdood]

So I gather what you're saying is.. focus on 5 channels? In any possible setup I look for quality and capability of the center channel first, and you've echoed that importance. But whould a single bookshelf be capable?

Maybe what I'll do is sell the quintets and stands and contribute the proceeds towards whatever I decide to do for those 5 channels.

[wheelman]

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On 3/22/2004 8:53:42 AM HornEd wrote:

I think you understand the basic timbre matching and full-range discrete multi-channel concept very well, doudou. My comment was that a horizontalized floor standing speaker as a center generally produces a quality of movie sound that bookshelf speakers cannot attain due to the differnce in cubic inches (or centimeters as you prefer).

Frankly, on most of the HT's that I build, I limit the multi-channel speakers to frequencies above about 85 Hz. Not having to make the long excursions for low notes gives the speakers a much better potential to handle fast music in the midrange... and the difference in timbre matching between floor standing and elevated horizontal speakers is minimalized when frequencies below 85 Hz are produced by the sub.

Frequencies below 85 Hz are better produced by a quality subwoofer, IMHO. -HornEd

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Why would you limit it to 85 why not make it 55 so you could set your crossover if you had one at 60? Then is it really necesary to have a large center if your cuttin it off at 85 especially using a klipsch speaker that can pummle anyways? I could see it with other speakers because they usually don't do what the specs say. So where do you crossover to the bass if you have them go to 85? At 100? Just curious Ed and i want to know if 100 is ok? Thanks