Scp53 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 first off let me say that I am very depressed . your gonna have a better sub than I have . congradulations on coming to the light, this is where you get very good performance for the $$$. the only thing I question is: will that samson control phase and the crossover point? I don't think it will but maybe Im wrong. you may need a crossover control or somthing. or an eq. I dunno. I will say that for 360 that is a heck of a nice amp. svs sells them(samson) on there site but for 100 more or so. does you reciever control crossover point? maybe that would work. and can you get it to 4 ohms bridged? running 8 ohms into a 4 ohm driver is not good. causes more heat on amp. although 500 wts into 4 ohms is very good. jumping from 500 to 1000 wts is doubling your wattage. every time you double wattage you gain 3db(roughly). so going from 500 to 1000 wts may or may not be a big deal. having that 1000 wts is just good for peaks in movie/music playback. note: 3db is audioable to some people and hardly at all to others. either way its a small increase in output. for the cab, call partsexpress up. get the correct cab size for a PORTED HOME CAB with the TITANIC MKIII 15" DRIVER. I would recommend using foam on the sides. they can tell you the correct foam to use. and how thick, etc. you may be able to friction fit the foam in- no glue or adhisive needed. and when you build the cab, internally brace it for sure. what wood are you going to use? I highly recommend mdf. consitantly dense and good for speaker building. and then you need to buy a port. PE tech support can tell you what size. I beleive they sell ports called "Percision Ports" or something like that. just don't buy a really cheap port. get one with flared end(s)- or what ever PE tells you to use. flared will help get rid of port turbulence- if any. just make sure that you have a friend to help you move it. its gonna be a beast. 100+ lbs. do you have long enough arms to reach around it and hold on? hopefully it will be a pleasent experience... good luck scp53 Jon ps: tell use how you like it when its done. don't take to many pictures off the wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 i was just writing a relpy when D-Rex posted. itsmyforte, that is one H#LL of a nice sub. D-Rex, maybe you want to consider that. its slightly less sensitive but handles much more power. for tha price it is a steal if its what you want. things that are better on it: dual 4ohm vc's- I think you could run that samson 500 wts a coil. as longs as its giving out equal power to both channels. or- this is actually the better thing to do- bridge the amp and run the vc in series and hook it up to that bridged channel. dual spiders- this basically controls the woofer a lot better at extreme excursions. if you know what a spider is on the woofer, just imagine placing another one right under that one. if you don't know what a spider is, look up the titanic woofers, click on anyone of them, and below its description there is a a picture- side view of the titanic. and it points out the spider and many other things. good to look at if you don't understand a speaker well(just saying this. hope im not offending anybody. I don't think your dumb, I just don't know if you understand a speaker.) double stacked mags: gives the vc a longer stroke and more powerful. its total mag weight is more than the titanic 15 total mag weight. and of course the price usually means its better. in this case its 250 more than titanic 15 msrp. so its probably better scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 ---------------- On 7/19/2004 5:52:52 PM Scp53 wrote: first off let me say that I am very depressed . your gonna have a better sub than I have . congradulations on coming to the light, this is where you get very good performance for the $$$. the only thing I question is: will that samson control phase and the crossover point? I don't think it will but maybe Im wrong. you may need a crossover control or somthing. or an eq. I dunno. I will say that for 360 that is a heck of a nice amp. svs sells them(samson) on there site but for 100 more or so. does you reciever control crossover point? maybe that would work. and can you get it to 4 ohms bridged? running 8 ohms into a 4 ohm driver is not good. causes more heat on amp. although 500 wts into 4 ohms is very good. jumping from 500 to 1000 wts is doubling your wattage. every time you double wattage you gain 3db(roughly). so going from 500 to 1000 wts may or may not be a big deal. having that 1000 wts is just good for peaks in movie/music playback. note: 3db is audioable to some people and hardly at all to others. either way its a small increase in output. for the cab, call partsexpress up. get the correct cab size for a PORTED HOME CAB with the TITANIC MKIII 15" DRIVER. I would recommend using foam on the sides. they can tell you the correct foam to use. and how thick, etc. you may be able to friction fit the foam in- no glue or adhisive needed. and when you build the cab, internally brace it for sure. what wood are you going to use? I highly recommend mdf. consitantly dense and good for speaker building. and then you need to buy a port. PE tech support can tell you what size. I beleive they sell ports called "Percision Ports" or something like that. just don't buy a really cheap port. get one with flared end(s)- or what ever PE tells you to use. flared will help get rid of port turbulence- if any. just make sure that you have a friend to help you move it. its gonna be a beast. 100+ lbs. do you have long enough arms to reach around it and hold on? hopefully it will be a pleasent experience... good luck scp53 Jon ps: tell use how you like it when its done. don't take to many pictures off the wall ---------------- It will take months before I get this project started and probably a month or so after that before I complete it. However, you will be more than welcome to borrow it if you ever happen to be cruising through Oklahoma. However, with that said, you have raised several more questions. You think the 12" DVC would perform as well as the 15" Titantic? How do you install a cross over if neither my prospective amp nor my receiver (Denon 3801) have crossover controls? I will have to check to see if the Denon has such controls, I just bought it and don't know off the top of my head. Bridged? Don't know about it, please explain. So, a 500 watt amp could suffice with hardly a noticable drop-off? So, it's not like a 1000 watt amp will appear as twice as powerful as a 500 watt? So you think the ported sub is the way to go? Where do I pick up MDF board, at a lumber yard or at a specialty speaker store? If I get this thing built and it sounds great I will have pictures strung from here to china... and back again! Thanks, D-Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 However, with that said, you have raised several more questions. You think the 12" DVC would perform as well as the 15" Titantic? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- are you talking about that one on a deal- from 550 msrp marked down to like 169? if you are talking about that one, yes it is better than the 15 titanic. How do you install a cross over if neither my prospective amp nor my receiver (Denon 3801) have crossover controls? I will have to check to see if the Denon has such controls, I just bought it and don't know off the top of my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- you can buy a sub crossover-actual board inside the cab, but that is more permenant, you can't just switch it like a turn nob on a regular plate amp. I suggest that you buy a external amp that is specifically for a sub. hopefully someone else knows of a amp that is just like plate amp except for external use. Bridged? Don't know about it, please explain. So, a 500 watt amp could suffice with hardly a noticable drop-off? So, it's not like a 1000 watt amp will appear as twice as powerful as a 500 watt? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- do you know anything about db and how it relates to power? every time you double your power input you gain 3db. I won't get into more specifics but all I can say is that going from a 500 wt to 1000 wts will make little difference. its more for headroom, not continuous use. and I saw that the most that samson could put out into 4 ohms was 500wt rms. you ask about bridged, this is when the amp combines both of its channels into one. so instead of stereo you combine it to mono. this is meant to gain much more power into one channel. So you think the ported sub is the way to go? Where do I pick up MDF board, at a lumber yard or at a specialty speaker store? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- the reason I say go ported is because it will give you more spl. ive had speakers that are ported and some that aren't-including my sub. big difference in power needed to drive them. and because the drivers your looking at are very well built you won't need to worry about sloppy, uncontroled bass(ported usually tends to not have as tight of bass. sealed has tighter bass). I think, if I remember right, if you put two speakers(identical ones) in enclosures- one of them in the correct sealed enclousure and the other in correct ported enclosure, the one in the ported will play 3db louder. to get the other up to that spl you'll need to double the power. here, go to this link: http://www.klipsch.com/product/homeaudiofaq.aspx#amp this might better explain db to you. but i don't think it talks about ported/sealed enclousures.... and yes mdf is at lumber stores usually. there are acoustic grades of mdf but any mdf should do. scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 11:54:08 AM Scp53 wrote: However, with that said, you have raised several more questions. You think the 12" DVC would perform as well as the 15" Titantic? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- are you talking about that one on a deal- from 550 msrp marked down to like 169? if you are talking about that one, yes it is better than the 15 titanic. How do you install a cross over if neither my prospective amp nor my receiver (Denon 3801) have crossover controls? I will have to check to see if the Denon has such controls, I just bought it and don't know off the top of my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- you can buy a sub crossover-actual board inside the cab, but that is more permenant, you can't just switch it like a turn nob on a regular plate amp. I suggest that you buy a external amp that is specifically for a sub. hopefully someone else knows of a amp that is just like plate amp except for external use. Bridged? Don't know about it, please explain. So, a 500 watt amp could suffice with hardly a noticable drop-off? So, it's not like a 1000 watt amp will appear as twice as powerful as a 500 watt? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- do you know anything about db and how it relates to power? every time you double your power input you gain 3db. I won't get into more specifics but all I can say is that going from a 500 wt to 1000 wts will make little difference. its more for headroom, not continuous use. and I saw that the most that samson could put out into 4 ohms was 500wt rms. you ask about bridged, this is when the amp combines both of its channels into one. so instead of stereo you combine it to mono. this is meant to gain much more power into one channel. So you think the ported sub is the way to go? Where do I pick up MDF board, at a lumber yard or at a specialty speaker store? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- the reason I say go ported is because it will give you more spl. ive had speakers that are ported and some that aren't-including my sub. big difference in power needed to drive them. and because the drivers your looking at are very well built you won't need to worry about sloppy, uncontroled bass(ported usually tends to not have as tight of bass. sealed has tighter bass). I think, if I remember right, if you put two speakers(identical ones) in enclosures- one of them in the correct sealed enclousure and the other in correct ported enclosure, the one in the ported will play 3db louder. to get the other up to that spl you'll need to double the power. here, go to this link: http://www.klipsch.com/product/homeaudiofaq.aspx#amp this might better explain db to you. but i don't think it talks about ported/sealed enclousures.... and yes mdf is at lumber stores usually. there are acoustic grades of mdf but any mdf should do. scp53 ---------------- Thanks for all of the helpful advice/information. Now, let me ask another question. If I bought two of those 12" DVCs could I place them in the same box, send a channel from the amp to each woofer and double the output of the subwoofer or would it be better to just build two boxes? D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Thanks for all of the helpful advice/information. Now, let me ask another question. If I bought two of those 12" DVCs could I place them in the same box, send a channel from the amp to each woofer and double the output of the subwoofer or would it be better to just build two boxes? D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- you could put them in the same box. Im not sure as to if they should be in the same chamber though. if you would but them in the same box, put them in seprate chambers. which "DVC's" are you talking about? those ones on a bargain? or the ones from dayton that cost $120-130? tell me the part number so I can look it up on PE's site. as far as "doubling the output", by no means can you double the output or even increase the output given the same power. all you would be doing is taking the power and splitting it so that each woofer works less. as far as two boxes, Id say stay with one. especially if you use the same amp for both(same channel of amp). you can have phase problems- one sub can cancel out the other. if I were you the first thing you need to decide is what subwoofer driver(s) you are going to use. and if you want those 550 msrp high performance 12" driver(s), you'd better jump on that. you ain't gonna see them around for very long. Im mean by them NOW! that is a deal. can't speak to how good they are but by looking at the specs and the price, there gonna smoke a titanic- at least in some ways. scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 ---------------- On 7/20/2004 11:06:49 PM Scp53 wrote: Thanks for all of the helpful advice/information. Now, let me ask another question. If I bought two of those 12" DVCs could I place them in the same box, send a channel from the amp to each woofer and double the output of the subwoofer or would it be better to just build two boxes? D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- you could put them in the same box. Im not sure as to if they should be in the same chamber though. if you would but them in the same box, put them in seprate chambers. which "DVC's" are you talking about? those ones on a bargain? or the ones from dayton that cost $120-130? tell me the part number so I can look it up on PE's site. as far as "doubling the output", by no means can you double the output or even increase the output given the same power. all you would be doing is taking the power and splitting it so that each woofer works less. as far as two boxes, Id say stay with one. especially if you use the same amp for both(same channel of amp). you can have phase problems- one sub can cancel out the other. if I were you the first thing you need to decide is what subwoofer driver(s) you are going to use. and if you want those 550 msrp high performance 12" driver(s), you'd better jump on that. you ain't gonna see them around for very long. Im mean by them NOW! that is a deal. can't speak to how good they are but by looking at the specs and the price, there gonna smoke a titanic- at least in some ways. scp53 ---------------- Okay, if you liked the 12" DVC then you should love this one! http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-665 I love the way they are describing the "feel" of this woofer. The description on the 12" was the only thing holding me back on that one! Of course, it's probably only marketing, they always tell you what you want to hear. Now, I have been scanning my local Lowes webpage and found what they are calling MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) and they are classifying it in the same class as particle board. Are you familiar with particle board and is MDF just a fancy name for it? Do you think the experts at PE would know if more expensive core lumber product or even a plyboard would be as good for a sub cabinet? Anyone else you know I could ask? If and when I get this built you will be the first I send a picture to! Thanks, D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 buy thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!!!!!! . that is one nice driver. get it. NOW! just one. no...hm. try two. actually because its such a deal get three. just kidding. one of those should be fine. if you can afford it get two though. you sub would blow by many other subs that have 15(s) in them. and it should, heck the driver is 600 friggin dollars. yeah, I can see why you like the description. I do too. . forget the titanics. get one of those! probably the 12. it will be tighter and has a lower fs. fs is resonate freq. scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 I e-mailed SVS about using a Samson amp with one of their passive subs and they wondered why when I could get one of their powered ones that would have the following advantages: "The powered subs have subsonic filters, 40-150hz crossover control, 0-180 phase control, and high level inputs." Now, he did say I could use my receiver for the crossover function (although I don't know how yet, I have a Denon 3801) but are the subsonic filters and 0-180 phase control necessary? I went and scoped out some MDF today at Lowes. It was extremely heavy and definitely unlike any particle board I had ever seen. I can see why it is so good for building speakers. It certainly needs some external veneer like a 1/4" birch or smaller to make for a beautiful finish but it will be one heavy beast! The lumber was probably 60-70 lbs for one sheet and the driver weighs another 30+ lbs! Add a few lbs here and there and it could easily weigh over 100lbs! However, it isn't building the box that has me concerned, it's all of this cross-over, phase control, etc. that has me concerned. It makes me think I should just go with the internal amp that has those gadgets built in, instead of the Samson. Would that be your suggestion as well? D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I e-mailed SVS about using a Samson amp with one of their passive subs and they wondered why when I could get one of their powered ones that would have the following advantages: "The powered subs have subsonic filters, 40-150hz crossover control, 0-180 phase control, and high level inputs." Now, he did say I could use my receiver for the crossover function (although I don't know how yet, I have a Denon 3801) but are the subsonic filters and 0-180 phase control necessary? ------------------------------------------------------------------- phase and subsonic filters are necessary. the phase makes sure your speakers sound get to you the same time the sub sound does. if they don't, noise cancelation occurs- which means less bass output. and a subsonic filter just makes sure no really deep freq come and destroy your driver and/or amp. this is std on a regular plate amp- the phase,subsonic filter, level, crossover point,etc. I went and scoped out some MDF today at Lowes. It was extremely heavy and definitely unlike any particle board I had ever seen. I can see why it is so good for building speakers. It certainly needs some external casing like an 1/4" birch or smaller to make for a beautiful finish but it will be one heavy beast! The lumber was probably 60-70 lbs for one sheet and the driver weighs another 30+ lbs! Add a few lbs here and there and it could easily weigh over 100lbs! -------------------------------------------------------------- good you went to look at mdf. However, it isn't building the box that has me concerned, it's all of this cross-over, phase control, etc. that has me concerned. It makes me think I should just go with the internal amp that has those gadgets built in, instaed of the Samson. Would that be your suggestion as well? -------------------------------------------------------------- I would suggest this. maybe you won't have to put it in the actual sub cab- just make a board/box to hold the plate amp buy it self- this way the sub won't rattle it. it would look a little odd but hey, if theres no rattle its all good. parts express has one like ive mentioned. one is 500 and the other is 1000 wts into 4 ohms. they have many good features- some not even found on the klipsch or svs subs(a couple of these arn't- one I typed next to): # High power Class AB output stage # Patented tracking downconverter power supply # Full parametric bass EQ-----------------------------this one feature not found on other sub amps- it allows you to tailor your sound to the room and what you like. # Phase reversal switch # Auto On/Off # Advanced soft clip circuitry # Toroidal power supply transformer # Power output: 512 watts RMS @ 8 ohms, 1024 watts RMS @ 4 ohms # S/N ratio: 98 dB (A-weighted) # Low-pass crossover: 30 - 200 Hz, 24 dB/octave # Auto On/Off I think this will make you a lot happier than that samson. with out other seperates for that samson- it is not very useful. you need a eq for sure and some thing that can control the phase too. heres the link-http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-808 its the kilowt one- thought this is more what you want. by the way have you ordered a sub driver(s) yet? better jump on some of those deals! scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 22, 2004 Author Share Posted July 22, 2004 Okay, I plan to get the 15" DVC (no, I haven't ordered it yet) which can handle over 1000 watts. So, should I get the amp to match (1000 watts) or, like you said before, it's only a 3db increase over the 500 watt so the benefit is hardly noticable? As soon as I find out from FedEx the status of my claim (my RB-5's were damaged during shipping) I will get the woofer ordered. My first priority (well, my wife's first priority) is to get something to replace the Pioneer floor speakers I am selling. Thanks for your assistance! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 get the 1000 wt one. you only buy it once- 300 vs 400 dollars. with that 1000 wt one, if you don't even use close to its ability- at least you won't be working it hard and it will not get as hot either. and that DVC- its that monster one correct? the one that is $500-600 msrp. and once you purchase it call PE and get the box dimensions. actually call before you order- because if you build a ported cab buy the port when you buy the driver. and even if you go sealed you'll need foam or some other filling- this kills sound waves coming from the back of the woofer. scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rex Posted July 24, 2004 Author Share Posted July 24, 2004 ---------------- On 7/22/2004 2:34:19 PM Scp53 wrote: get the 1000 wt one. you only buy it once- 300 vs 400 dollars. with that 1000 wt one, if you don't even use close to its ability- at least you won't be working it hard and it will not get as hot either. and that DVC- its that monster one correct? the one that is $500-600 msrp. and once you purchase it call PE and get the box dimensions. actually call before you order- because if you build a ported cab buy the port when you buy the driver. and even if you go sealed you'll need foam or some other filling- this kills sound waves coming from the back of the woofer. scp53 ---------------- Okay, as luck would have it, I found a 1000 watt amp from parts express on Ebay and got it for $302 with shipping, which is even cheaper than the 500 watt when you include shipping. It was brand new, never been out of the box, much like Stinky Pete (Toy Story 2). ;-) I am going to see a friend of mine at Kicker here in Stillwater on Monday and discuss the pros and cons of the 15" dayton driver and see if they have anything comparable at an affordable price. Kicker is a big name in car audio and are just now begining to dabble in home audio. Okay, so let's rundown the parts needed. I have the amp and I am getting a driver. Then I need some MDF (including the glue and "nails"), a port, some form of legs for the box, some finishing product(paint, stain, varnish etc.), some foam for the inside, metal braces for the inside of the box, and ???. Thanks, D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 looks complete. just make sure you get a good driver. this is ultimately what it comes down to. you can buy/build everything perfectly but if the driver is crap then you sound is still crap. make sure if you consider a Kicker sub that it will work for a home cab. I have never done any car audio but have heard some good things about Kicker. so if the driver was built for non-mobile use then it should be fine- figuring its comparable to the daytons you've looked at. scp53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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