New RF-3s....Set to 'small'?

[PaulE]

I know most people say to set the speakers to Small...My receiver, which I'm using as a preamp and DSP has a variable crossover which goes from 40 hz to 200 hz, when I select 'small'. Given this flexibility, I see no reason to set them to Large, so, small it is...But, where would you cross them over? I tested them with my SPL meter, and there's pretty decent bass down to 40hz, so, should I cross them over at 40? Or, do you think I'd get better (but not boomy?) bass if I crossed them over at 50 or 60? I had SB-3s before this, and I crossed them over at 70, and this worked pretty well for them, but as we know, the bass response of the RF-3s is much superior to that of the SB-3s,so I'd like to take advantage of it...Thanks.

[boa12]

paul, are u using a sub?

[HornEd]

PaulE, as usual, the Boa's is slithering right to the point. If you are concerned about setting a crossover... you must be crossing over to something... and what that something is... where it is placed... and even the intended program material... all contribute to your crossover setting opportunity.

The lower the frequency, the longer a bass wave has to be to rock your "ear pans" and roll your viscera. Building big sound waves means moving massive amounts of air and getting the resultant waves to your ears before they are cancelled out by other speakers or reflections from walls, furniture or blockheads in the sweetspot.

Subwoofers are really just woofers designed to move big air with "thunder-quick" precision (lightening-quick would require 186k miles/second action... and human ears aren't THAT quick... and neither is ANY woofer!). The "ideal" speaker would eliminate the need for crossovers much as the ideal drive train in your car would eliminate the need for gears... like the old steamers did. But the fact is ("fact" is what we know before we know what's next), different electro-mechanical systems work better at different sound frequencies... according to your own "ear" bias and "gut' feeling.

I like dome tweeters behing a horn... and mid-range drivers behind a horn... and then suddenly, putting a horn to the mid-bass and lower becomes an increasingly expensive and space consuming proposition. And so, the coneheads make their cost-effective debut in the lower frequencies. Using cone technology to move massive air fast enough for musical purposes usually requires multiple long-throw 12" woofer subs placed close together in the same corner to side-step canceling waves. With few exceptions, larger diameter woofers work well for HT but may be slow for complex music.

An SVS Ultra uses a 97 oz. hunk of strontium ferrite to achieve its magnetic personality... which resonates in a full meter (39") treble-ported tube... and, with all speakers set to SMALL, it takes TWO Ultras to achieve Dolby's MINIMUM reference level bass of 121dB... and too few subs can actually live up to reface level standards and be quick enough to catch the musical nuance your ears pick out of a live performance... as horns do so well in the mid-range for Klipsch classics!

It stands to reason, then, that a combination of speakers that are each more efficient and true in their respective areas of superiority than some "full range" speakers that attempts to be all things to all people for 10Hz to 20,000Hz. Where you set your crossovers depends on a careful SPL analysis of how high up your sub sound good... and how low you can go with your mains and have a better sound than your sub can match.

And then, of course, is the task of effecting a seamless match between the high end of your bass and the low end of your full-range speakers. And after all is said and done... it is your ears that should decide where the crossover points should be... for you! HornEd

------------------

"Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp

SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and such... Tweakin' On!

2-Channel Music Respite Room ala Cornwall under construction...

[paulaelliott]

Thanks Guys,

Yes I have a sub....Not a particularly good sub, but a sub...Actually its probably one of the highest rated cheap sub around...Sony SAWM40 with 12" driver and 120w amp. Its pretty flat down to 30 hz, where it dies. Im missing the 30hz - 20hz range. With the SB3s, I crossed them at 70. With my SPL meter and my test cd of descending tones, this gave me the flattest response down to 30 hz. But they were rated at 52 hz min resp freq.

My new RF-3s are rated down to 37 hz. Again, with test cd and spl meter in hand, I found I got the flattest response crossing them over at 40, letting the sub only handle the range from 40 to 30. But with music playing, I guess I'm used to hearing more come from the sub, so in comparison, it sounds like I may not be getting as strong bass as when I used my SB3s crossed at 70. Yet with the meter, it shows this is flatter crossing my RF3s at 40. I'm curious to hear from Legends or Reference speaker owners, how they cross over them over to blend best with their subs..

thanks.

[boa12]

paul, glad to hear u got a sub. me think it's a necessity at least for ht.

if u want the tech experts on paper opinion, it's set the cross roughly 10-15hz above the lowest freq capability of your mains.

but ed is right on. u really have to listen & find that seamless blend point. everybody has dif rooms, tastes, etc. so there're many variables & think you'll

get opinions all the way from 40-120hz

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

rock on!

[HornEd]

Opps, excuse me PaulE, I just remembered your are the Mahler fan! So, I need to add a few things to my above comments. I believe you will find your best results with RF-3's set on SMALL and sub that can hit a minimum Dolby reference level of 121dB at every prime seating position. As you know, you are currently a long way from there with your current rig... but the closer you get to that minimum ideal the greater Gustaf will be... as will your HT experience blossom.

Choosing to obtain the best quality subs and centers you can afford are critical in HT. The center will carry upwards of 65% of the HT speaker load... a properly set up sub is configured to pump out those long bass waves that Yo-Yo Ma carves so well on his new hypercello... creating performance based nuances well worth catching... and that now largely pass you by.

"Cheap subs" flatten the soul of Mahler music and water down the party punch of HT. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 08-03-2001 at 03:03 PM