paulaelliott

I recall reading some time ago about a tweak that had to do with surrounding the mouth of the horn with some thin foam, as a way to tone down the harshest aspects of the design. Does anyone recall where I can read more about this?

Keith, >>read why silver interconnects were probably a poor choice to use with a Sony receiver.<< Ok, I give....Why? Here's what it says about the interconnects: >>Our newest member in our Silver Serpent family of high-performance audio/video cables. This is an outstanding Silver-Copper hybrid analog interconnect that is sonically revealing without the harshness associated with most pure silver interconnects. Bare copper braid shield has 95% coverage and the center conductor is pure silver-coated copper. The early feedback from our customers has been WOW!<< I've heard where silver can harshen the highs...First, its far from true that this is always the case...second, I'd wonder why the ES receivers are more prone to this as you suggest? Also, I'm planning on using them for the preout stage to the amp. I think I also ordered their digital coax cable...Do you also think this would be a problem? I've heard nothing but good things about the bettercables.com... Lastly, I certainly know the older ES receiver had better DACS...They used to use burr/brown chips, which I dont think is true anymore..Still, this doesnt mean teh receiver's dac isnt better...it doesnt mean it is either...If it is better, then what should I do to get the best out of analog direct mode? Buy a better DVD/CD player? Get a separate CD player with advertised better DAC? Maybe find one with a burr/brown chipset? Any ideas?

Also Ray, from the Crutchfield site: >>Direct Stream Digital (DSD) is the advanced recording technology that makes SACD possible. Standard CDs use 44.1kHz/16-bit PCM (44,100 samples-per-second Pulse Code Modulation, encoded at 16-bit resolution) to represent audio in digital form. << If the standard CD sampling rate is 44.1 khz, then what's the 'harm' in my DVD player downconverting from 96 khz to 48 khz...Isnt that still above the standard 44.1 khz sampling rate??

Thanks very much guys for the on target responses. >>"...When a 96kHz/24bit 2-channel PCM disc is played, the sampling rate is down converted to 48kHz before the signal is output from the digital outputs. To enjoy the full benefits of a 96kHz/24bit disc, you must listen to the output from the analog 2-channel stereo line outputs (the built-in digital to analog converter processes the signal with full 96kHz/24bit resolution)..."<< >>That may explain why you found the receiver's analog direct input sounded at least as good as the digital input. << Actually, Ray, I think I said that I found the receiver's Digital sound processing modes AS GOOD AS the receiver's Analog Direct mode! Which is kind of the opposite you quoted, and has a different point...We'd expect the Analog Direct signal to be sharper, cleaner, more accurate sounding, but I didnt find this...Now, with initial quote above, it makes it even less understandable...If the DVD/CD player is downconverting the digital sampling rate from 96 to 48 so that the REceiver receives the signal with half the digital information to convert to analog, then we would certainly expect the digital signal to sound not as clear as that which we hear when we listen to Analog Direct. So, if all this is consistant with a better sounding Analog Direct mode, then why on earth do the digital sound modes sound just as clear, or clearer? I ventured forth in my original post another possible factor: The analog cables from the DVD/CD player to the receiver....I'm running a rat shack toslink cable to pass the digital signal when left in native digital form by the player. But I'm also running ratshack (non gold line, but heavier than the cheapest of the cheap) rca cables for the analog connection...I have some Ixos silver line cables on order, and maybe they will improve the sound of the Analog Direct mode. I should know in a few days. From all this, it seems like the Digital signal, while already sounding at least as good as the analog signal, can sound even better, were it not downconverted in the player..Which brings me to another question....What about getting a better CD player? Would a good CD player not downconvert the signal? Would it contain a better DAC? Would it make sense to have both a DVD AND a CD player? Do most folks who have a DVD player, but care about music more than home theater, still use their DVD player for their CDs? Thanks again for the input.

Borg, >>when i replaced my Klipsch KSF5's with RS7 surrounds (i continued using my old Monster THX rated HP Flat White Cable) and went from playing the KSF5 surrounds at +6, +8, to now playing the RS7's at a flat 0 (zero) setting, and i'm actually getting so much surround sound that its sometimes annoying. my RF & RC7's are also set to zero, and when i put my old RF3's in the back surround position, i have to boost them to +4, +5, << I assume this is because the the RS7 has a sensitivity of 98 and the KSF5 is rated at 90. But, what I dont understand is why the loudness per volume level is any different with your RS7 thatn wth your RF3: their both rated at 98db!

Keith, >>PaulE,don't look back.It's dangerous. << LOL...Aint THAT the truth! No, I'm not looking back...I really love my system as it is now, and I think all my serious tweaking is over for a while.

Now that my front stage is sounding 'perfect!', time to look at the surrounds. I'm running 16 gauge zip chord to my two surrounds, one of which is about 44 ft away, and the other, about 30 ft. When I check my test tones with my Rat Shack SPL meter, I find I need to put a Plus 6 on the surrounds to get them to the same level as the fronts. I dont do any 5 channel stereo, but the surrounds are pretty active in some of my Concert Hall modes, supplying mostly ambient and and delay effects. And of course, in HT mode, theyre useful. I kind of thought that so long as I had DB left in the amp to play with in boosting my rear channels, I'm ok...But now Im wondering, if Id be better off in running heavier cables... So, here's the question...Am I better off running new 12 gauge cable to the surrounds, or, can I keep the existing 16 gauge runs, and simply run another run of the same 16 gauge cable to them? I think this will give me an effective 13 gauge. Assuming 12 gauge and 13 gauge will give me the same throughput, my question is more about impedence....Where will I have the most effective resistance: with one run 12 or two runs of 16? And, is this an important consideration in deciding this issue? thanks.

Hiya Keith, Here's my impression of biwiring results: There's no question to me at all that there was a definite improvement when I biwired the front speakers with 10 ft lengths of Ixos biwire, featuring 13 gauge bass cables and 15 gauge tweeter cables...Together, I think this presents an 11 gauge cable at the amp. The question I have is whether the improvement came from: The use of the heavier cable vs my previous 16 gauge zip chord. Biwiring alone. A combination of using the heavier cable and speaker break in. A combination of using biwire and speaker break in. The biggest question is really whether its the heavier cable or the biwire...I know, its a very easy test to determine which it is...Just attach the jumpers again...Without even moving the 4 terminal hookups, adding and removing the jumper will be equivalent single and bi wiring. One of these days I will get around to trying it....but I'm so happy with the way the system sounds now, I dont want to touch a thing...Who'd have thought that a Sony ES receiver driving an Audiosource Amp3 and Klipsch RF-3 speakers would give me by far the best system I've ever heard, bar none! It's certainly not the best system...it just sounds like one....I couldnt be happier.

Thanks Guys, Yes I have a sub....Not a particularly good sub, but a sub...Actually its probably one of the highest rated cheap sub around...Sony SAWM40 with 12" driver and 120w amp. Its pretty flat down to 30 hz, where it dies. Im missing the 30hz - 20hz range. With the SB3s, I crossed them at 70. With my SPL meter and my test cd of descending tones, this gave me the flattest response down to 30 hz. But they were rated at 52 hz min resp freq. My new RF-3s are rated down to 37 hz. Again, with test cd and spl meter in hand, I found I got the flattest response crossing them over at 40, letting the sub only handle the range from 40 to 30. But with music playing, I guess I'm used to hearing more come from the sub, so in comparison, it sounds like I may not be getting as strong bass as when I used my SB3s crossed at 70. Yet with the meter, it shows this is flatter crossing my RF3s at 40. I'm curious to hear from Legends or Reference speaker owners, how they cross over them over to blend best with their subs.. thanks.

I dont think I'm understanding about this hiss...Again, I have the sTR-V333Es... I only hear it if I stick my ear against the grill in front of the tweeter. A FAR louder hiss is present in most of my ADD rated classical recordings...There, if you turn it to above 80 db in spl readings, you can clearly hear the tape hiss which was used to make the recording...But if you can hear the receiver hiss over any music youre playing at all, then there is seriously something wrong. What does it matter what you can hear with your ear pressed up against the grill? Now, if youre saying that, in your listening position, you can hear the hiss over your recordings, then yes, I'd say you have a serious problem...But that's so far from what I'm experiencing with my ES receiver that its hard for me to relate... Can you describe it in any of the above terms?

Ah, the KLF-30s....Probably, when I'd be ready maybe to make the ultimate tradeup, they'll Really be discontinued, ie, sans available! Anyway, the RF-3s are not connected and playing Gould Bach at the moment...Needless to say, theyre terrific...They tell me these take over 100 hrs to break in, so I suppose what I'm hearing now will just get gradually better..Nice...I made the big decision on spikeswhen setting them up...My SB-3s lived on Sanus stands with spikes, and cones for the speakers to rest on...These, I decided to put the feet on but instead of screwing in the spikes, I screwed in the little rubber stops....Even this way, the body of the speakers is off the carpet which is a low, stock furnishing affair...I know you like spikes, but I'm not totally convinced...Kind of like buy-wiring. Besides until I'm damn sure theyre at their permanent resting space, I'm going to spare the carpet...Its kind of bullet holed from my excursions with the sanus stands, so it'll get a break for now. I ordered to 10'lengths of Ixos biwire, just to try...It wasnt expensive so what the heck...It comes in two thicknesses, so if anyone knows, does the thickest wire go to the woofers or the tweeters? Tweeters provice more impedence, right, so does that mean the tweeters need the thickest wire? I would have thought that duty was for the woofers, but now I'm not sure....I'm not even sure if it makes a difference, but if I'm going to try it, I want to do it right....Thanks for everyone's help...This has been a fun thread!

Hey Blorry, I really thought I was going to have a problem...Before I got into my latest musical phase, I used to listen to Rock, Trance, whatever...And 80 DB of Trance consisted of about 78 db of kick drum. You know, the kind of stuff that just penetrates concrete and steel...After 3 complaints, I realized I'd better do something...Then, I found that I could easily go 10 db higher even listening to the most dynamic of symphonies. So, now, if non classical is being played, its 75-80 db....If classical, the sky's the limit...Its a good thing to, because I was afraid I'd have to move...But, owning a condo, you just cant quite pick up and leave quite as easily...Theres the small matter of selling involved. I find these very listenable levels for each type of music, so I have no problem...But, had I the legends, well, I dont know how easily I'd be able to keep to these levels....How do KLF-30s sound at just 70 - 80 db? I dont know if you have an SPL meter, so you might not be able to answer it.

Hey Blorry, I know exactly what you mean in reading Ed's system specs! I'm legend challenged also...I had a decision to make....The RF-3s and the KLF-10s were going for just about the same price, ie $540 - $600. Coming from SB-3s, there's something inside me which says the legends would overpower the room....Also, I was afraid that the KLF-10s, with their 2 10s and being a 2 way speaker, would be hard pressed to play the mids as well as the RF-3s with the 2 8s....For some reason, I was nervous about 10" speakers playing the 2000 + cycle tones. Also, I like the idea of the newer technology tweeters the Reference guys have....But it was a tough choice, especially as I was able to audition the RF3s, but not the Legends. But there were alot of comments on line that the KLF-10 was a better rock and roll or HT speaker and the RF3 was more 'musical', whatever that means...The KLF-20s can now be had for about $750/pr, which makes it awfully tempting...Still, they are mamouth...I know I'd want to play them lease-breaking loud...Im in a HIRise Condo apt...If I play any Trance stuff, or any stuff with a bass beat, I need to keep it no higher than 80 db...Yet with my Classical, I have no problem kicking it to 90 db, with no neighbor hassles. If I had a house to myself, and more room, no question, it would have been the KLF 20s....But as it is, I think the RF-3 is the perfect solution....Thanks for everybody's contribution to this lively thread...Its been real enjoyable....Hopefully the RF3s will show up today...Then I can start a new one re those...

Keath, The help is much appreciated, really....I can hardly wait for the RF-3s to arrive....Now, I need to debate the whole biwiring thing...My makeup makes me inclined to say no way...But, nevertheless, I found a place selling decent Ixos cut biwire at $2.25 / ft, so I bought 20 ft, just to try. Might as well make up my own mind, although my natural skepticism might make it hard for me to see the other side. I'm currently using 16 awg Monster cable, and for the < 10 ft runs, the table I'm using says use 16 g right up to 50 ft, for 8 ohm speakers...Here's the site: http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm#wiretable...So if the biwire should amazingly sound better, it will no doubt be due to the fact that heavier wire, combined, is being used...Probaly will have the same effect as if I single wired the biwire! Anyway, I must confess, I'm going against one of your key caveats...the one about buying from an authorized source... When I bought my SB3s,they were from the Wiz, and I paid a true $450 for them. Then I found I could easilly have gotten them for $100 less, and I felt like a putz. On the RF3s, I went to one of those 5 star sources associated with Yahoo, and I'm only paying $545.....Theyre still supposed to carry the warranty, and while Id rather have gone to an authorized source, unless they will give a little in price ( I dont need 30% off, but something would be nice!) I'd probaby persue this route again. Anyway, I'll write back here once I've gotten then connected....Hopefully, it'll be good news...If not, i can always attribute it to them not being broken in yet...Or, perhaps, not being buy-wired! Oh, for joy, WQxR is about to play Mahler's 10th.....good night.

HornED, All is forgiven...There are few enough of us classical music buffs that we must stick together at all costs! First, the name is Paul...I post under two names...at work I use my login name which is paul a elliott...At home, I use Paul E, but they're both me... You have quite an eviable system, with KLF 30s for seemingly Everything! Must have a big room....Im in a hi rise condo apt, with a 12 X 24 X 8 living room. I have my front speakers about 8-9 ft apart, on either side of an ent. center holding my 32" Hitachi TV and my electronics. And, I sit about 7 ' from the tv putting me about 8' from each speaker, which is the way I'm supposed to be situated in the 'sweet spot'...But I tell you, KLF anythings would I think just overpower the room...I'm using a Sony STR-V333ES receiver acting as preamp, equalizer, and DSP driving a 150 w/c Audiosource Amp3 which is connected to the Klipschs. I finally ordered the RF-3s....I believe their midrange, so crucial for classical, is better than the KLF-10, which you confirmed...Ideally, the KLF-20 would have found their way into my room, but, again, too big for the environment....Or maybe, just too big for me...Anyway, I think the RF-3s will do well, and they should arrive tomorrow....How's your Mahler collection?