paulaelliott

I recall reading some time ago about a tweak that had to do with surrounding the mouth of the horn with some thin foam, as a way to tone down the harshest aspects of the design. Does anyone recall where I can read more about this?

Keith, >>read why silver interconnects were probably a poor choice to use with a Sony receiver.<< Ok, I give....Why? Here's what it says about the interconnects: >>Our newest member in our Silver Serpent family of high-performance audio/video cables. This is an outstanding Silver-Copper hybrid analog interconnect that is sonically revealing without the harshness associated with most pure silver interconnects. Bare copper braid shield has 95% coverage and the center conductor is pure silver-coated copper. The early feedback from our customers has been WOW!<< I've heard where silver can harshen the highs...First, its far from true that this is always the case...second, I'd wonder why the ES receivers are more prone to this as you suggest? Also, I'm planning on using them for the preout stage to the amp. I think I also ordered their digital coax cable...Do you also think this would be a problem? I've heard nothing but good things about the bettercables.com... Lastly, I certainly know the older ES receiver had better DACS...They used to use burr/brown chips, which I dont think is true anymore..Still, this doesnt mean teh receiver's dac isnt better...it doesnt mean it is either...If it is better, then what should I do to get the best out of analog direct mode? Buy a better DVD/CD player? Get a separate CD player with advertised better DAC? Maybe find one with a burr/brown chipset? Any ideas?

Also Ray, from the Crutchfield site: >>Direct Stream Digital (DSD) is the advanced recording technology that makes SACD possible. Standard CDs use 44.1kHz/16-bit PCM (44,100 samples-per-second Pulse Code Modulation, encoded at 16-bit resolution) to represent audio in digital form. << If the standard CD sampling rate is 44.1 khz, then what's the 'harm' in my DVD player downconverting from 96 khz to 48 khz...Isnt that still above the standard 44.1 khz sampling rate??

Thanks very much guys for the on target responses. >>"...When a 96kHz/24bit 2-channel PCM disc is played, the sampling rate is down converted to 48kHz before the signal is output from the digital outputs. To enjoy the full benefits of a 96kHz/24bit disc, you must listen to the output from the analog 2-channel stereo line outputs (the built-in digital to analog converter processes the signal with full 96kHz/24bit resolution)..."<< >>That may explain why you found the receiver's analog direct input sounded at least as good as the digital input. << Actually, Ray, I think I said that I found the receiver's Digital sound processing modes AS GOOD AS the receiver's Analog Direct mode! Which is kind of the opposite you quoted, and has a different point...We'd expect the Analog Direct signal to be sharper, cleaner, more accurate sounding, but I didnt find this...Now, with initial quote above, it makes it even less understandable...If the DVD/CD player is downconverting the digital sampling rate from 96 to 48 so that the REceiver receives the signal with half the digital information to convert to analog, then we would certainly expect the digital signal to sound not as clear as that which we hear when we listen to Analog Direct. So, if all this is consistant with a better sounding Analog Direct mode, then why on earth do the digital sound modes sound just as clear, or clearer? I ventured forth in my original post another possible factor: The analog cables from the DVD/CD player to the receiver....I'm running a rat shack toslink cable to pass the digital signal when left in native digital form by the player. But I'm also running ratshack (non gold line, but heavier than the cheapest of the cheap) rca cables for the analog connection...I have some Ixos silver line cables on order, and maybe they will improve the sound of the Analog Direct mode. I should know in a few days. From all this, it seems like the Digital signal, while already sounding at least as good as the analog signal, can sound even better, were it not downconverted in the player..Which brings me to another question....What about getting a better CD player? Would a good CD player not downconvert the signal? Would it contain a better DAC? Would it make sense to have both a DVD AND a CD player? Do most folks who have a DVD player, but care about music more than home theater, still use their DVD player for their CDs? Thanks again for the input.

Borg, >>when i replaced my Klipsch KSF5's with RS7 surrounds (i continued using my old Monster THX rated HP Flat White Cable) and went from playing the KSF5 surrounds at +6, +8, to now playing the RS7's at a flat 0 (zero) setting, and i'm actually getting so much surround sound that its sometimes annoying. my RF & RC7's are also set to zero, and when i put my old RF3's in the back surround position, i have to boost them to +4, +5, << I assume this is because the the RS7 has a sensitivity of 98 and the KSF5 is rated at 90. But, what I dont understand is why the loudness per volume level is any different with your RS7 thatn wth your RF3: their both rated at 98db!

Keith, >>PaulE,don't look back.It's dangerous. << LOL...Aint THAT the truth! No, I'm not looking back...I really love my system as it is now, and I think all my serious tweaking is over for a while.

Now that my front stage is sounding 'perfect!', time to look at the surrounds. I'm running 16 gauge zip chord to my two surrounds, one of which is about 44 ft away, and the other, about 30 ft. When I check my test tones with my Rat Shack SPL meter, I find I need to put a Plus 6 on the surrounds to get them to the same level as the fronts. I dont do any 5 channel stereo, but the surrounds are pretty active in some of my Concert Hall modes, supplying mostly ambient and and delay effects. And of course, in HT mode, theyre useful. I kind of thought that so long as I had DB left in the amp to play with in boosting my rear channels, I'm ok...But now Im wondering, if Id be better off in running heavier cables... So, here's the question...Am I better off running new 12 gauge cable to the surrounds, or, can I keep the existing 16 gauge runs, and simply run another run of the same 16 gauge cable to them? I think this will give me an effective 13 gauge. Assuming 12 gauge and 13 gauge will give me the same throughput, my question is more about impedence....Where will I have the most effective resistance: with one run 12 or two runs of 16? And, is this an important consideration in deciding this issue? thanks.

Hiya Keith, Here's my impression of biwiring results: There's no question to me at all that there was a definite improvement when I biwired the front speakers with 10 ft lengths of Ixos biwire, featuring 13 gauge bass cables and 15 gauge tweeter cables...Together, I think this presents an 11 gauge cable at the amp. The question I have is whether the improvement came from: The use of the heavier cable vs my previous 16 gauge zip chord. Biwiring alone. A combination of using the heavier cable and speaker break in. A combination of using biwire and speaker break in. The biggest question is really whether its the heavier cable or the biwire...I know, its a very easy test to determine which it is...Just attach the jumpers again...Without even moving the 4 terminal hookups, adding and removing the jumper will be equivalent single and bi wiring. One of these days I will get around to trying it....but I'm so happy with the way the system sounds now, I dont want to touch a thing...Who'd have thought that a Sony ES receiver driving an Audiosource Amp3 and Klipsch RF-3 speakers would give me by far the best system I've ever heard, bar none! It's certainly not the best system...it just sounds like one....I couldnt be happier.

Thanks Guys, Yes I have a sub....Not a particularly good sub, but a sub...Actually its probably one of the highest rated cheap sub around...Sony SAWM40 with 12" driver and 120w amp. Its pretty flat down to 30 hz, where it dies. Im missing the 30hz - 20hz range. With the SB3s, I crossed them at 70. With my SPL meter and my test cd of descending tones, this gave me the flattest response down to 30 hz. But they were rated at 52 hz min resp freq. My new RF-3s are rated down to 37 hz. Again, with test cd and spl meter in hand, I found I got the flattest response crossing them over at 40, letting the sub only handle the range from 40 to 30. But with music playing, I guess I'm used to hearing more come from the sub, so in comparison, it sounds like I may not be getting as strong bass as when I used my SB3s crossed at 70. Yet with the meter, it shows this is flatter crossing my RF3s at 40. I'm curious to hear from Legends or Reference speaker owners, how they cross over them over to blend best with their subs.. thanks.

I dont think I'm understanding about this hiss...Again, I have the sTR-V333Es... I only hear it if I stick my ear against the grill in front of the tweeter. A FAR louder hiss is present in most of my ADD rated classical recordings...There, if you turn it to above 80 db in spl readings, you can clearly hear the tape hiss which was used to make the recording...But if you can hear the receiver hiss over any music youre playing at all, then there is seriously something wrong. What does it matter what you can hear with your ear pressed up against the grill? Now, if youre saying that, in your listening position, you can hear the hiss over your recordings, then yes, I'd say you have a serious problem...But that's so far from what I'm experiencing with my ES receiver that its hard for me to relate... Can you describe it in any of the above terms?

Ah, the KLF-30s....Probably, when I'd be ready maybe to make the ultimate tradeup, they'll Really be discontinued, ie, sans available! Anyway, the RF-3s are not connected and playing Gould Bach at the moment...Needless to say, theyre terrific...They tell me these take over 100 hrs to break in, so I suppose what I'm hearing now will just get gradually better..Nice...I made the big decision on spikeswhen setting them up...My SB-3s lived on Sanus stands with spikes, and cones for the speakers to rest on...These, I decided to put the feet on but instead of screwing in the spikes, I screwed in the little rubber stops....Even this way, the body of the speakers is off the carpet which is a low, stock furnishing affair...I know you like spikes, but I'm not totally convinced...Kind of like buy-wiring. Besides until I'm damn sure theyre at their permanent resting space, I'm going to spare the carpet...Its kind of bullet holed from my excursions with the sanus stands, so it'll get a break for now. I ordered to 10'lengths of Ixos biwire, just to try...It wasnt expensive so what the heck...It comes in two thicknesses, so if anyone knows, does the thickest wire go to the woofers or the tweeters? Tweeters provice more impedence, right, so does that mean the tweeters need the thickest wire? I would have thought that duty was for the woofers, but now I'm not sure....I'm not even sure if it makes a difference, but if I'm going to try it, I want to do it right....Thanks for everyone's help...This has been a fun thread!

Hey Blorry, I really thought I was going to have a problem...Before I got into my latest musical phase, I used to listen to Rock, Trance, whatever...And 80 DB of Trance consisted of about 78 db of kick drum. You know, the kind of stuff that just penetrates concrete and steel...After 3 complaints, I realized I'd better do something...Then, I found that I could easily go 10 db higher even listening to the most dynamic of symphonies. So, now, if non classical is being played, its 75-80 db....If classical, the sky's the limit...Its a good thing to, because I was afraid I'd have to move...But, owning a condo, you just cant quite pick up and leave quite as easily...Theres the small matter of selling involved. I find these very listenable levels for each type of music, so I have no problem...But, had I the legends, well, I dont know how easily I'd be able to keep to these levels....How do KLF-30s sound at just 70 - 80 db? I dont know if you have an SPL meter, so you might not be able to answer it.

Hey Blorry, I know exactly what you mean in reading Ed's system specs! I'm legend challenged also...I had a decision to make....The RF-3s and the KLF-10s were going for just about the same price, ie $540 - $600. Coming from SB-3s, there's something inside me which says the legends would overpower the room....Also, I was afraid that the KLF-10s, with their 2 10s and being a 2 way speaker, would be hard pressed to play the mids as well as the RF-3s with the 2 8s....For some reason, I was nervous about 10" speakers playing the 2000 + cycle tones. Also, I like the idea of the newer technology tweeters the Reference guys have....But it was a tough choice, especially as I was able to audition the RF3s, but not the Legends. But there were alot of comments on line that the KLF-10 was a better rock and roll or HT speaker and the RF3 was more 'musical', whatever that means...The KLF-20s can now be had for about $750/pr, which makes it awfully tempting...Still, they are mamouth...I know I'd want to play them lease-breaking loud...Im in a HIRise Condo apt...If I play any Trance stuff, or any stuff with a bass beat, I need to keep it no higher than 80 db...Yet with my Classical, I have no problem kicking it to 90 db, with no neighbor hassles. If I had a house to myself, and more room, no question, it would have been the KLF 20s....But as it is, I think the RF-3 is the perfect solution....Thanks for everybody's contribution to this lively thread...Its been real enjoyable....Hopefully the RF3s will show up today...Then I can start a new one re those...

Keath, The help is much appreciated, really....I can hardly wait for the RF-3s to arrive....Now, I need to debate the whole biwiring thing...My makeup makes me inclined to say no way...But, nevertheless, I found a place selling decent Ixos cut biwire at $2.25 / ft, so I bought 20 ft, just to try. Might as well make up my own mind, although my natural skepticism might make it hard for me to see the other side. I'm currently using 16 awg Monster cable, and for the < 10 ft runs, the table I'm using says use 16 g right up to 50 ft, for 8 ohm speakers...Here's the site: http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm#wiretable...So if the biwire should amazingly sound better, it will no doubt be due to the fact that heavier wire, combined, is being used...Probaly will have the same effect as if I single wired the biwire! Anyway, I must confess, I'm going against one of your key caveats...the one about buying from an authorized source... When I bought my SB3s,they were from the Wiz, and I paid a true $450 for them. Then I found I could easilly have gotten them for $100 less, and I felt like a putz. On the RF3s, I went to one of those 5 star sources associated with Yahoo, and I'm only paying $545.....Theyre still supposed to carry the warranty, and while Id rather have gone to an authorized source, unless they will give a little in price ( I dont need 30% off, but something would be nice!) I'd probaby persue this route again. Anyway, I'll write back here once I've gotten then connected....Hopefully, it'll be good news...If not, i can always attribute it to them not being broken in yet...Or, perhaps, not being buy-wired! Oh, for joy, WQxR is about to play Mahler's 10th.....good night.

HornED, All is forgiven...There are few enough of us classical music buffs that we must stick together at all costs! First, the name is Paul...I post under two names...at work I use my login name which is paul a elliott...At home, I use Paul E, but they're both me... You have quite an eviable system, with KLF 30s for seemingly Everything! Must have a big room....Im in a hi rise condo apt, with a 12 X 24 X 8 living room. I have my front speakers about 8-9 ft apart, on either side of an ent. center holding my 32" Hitachi TV and my electronics. And, I sit about 7 ' from the tv putting me about 8' from each speaker, which is the way I'm supposed to be situated in the 'sweet spot'...But I tell you, KLF anythings would I think just overpower the room...I'm using a Sony STR-V333ES receiver acting as preamp, equalizer, and DSP driving a 150 w/c Audiosource Amp3 which is connected to the Klipschs. I finally ordered the RF-3s....I believe their midrange, so crucial for classical, is better than the KLF-10, which you confirmed...Ideally, the KLF-20 would have found their way into my room, but, again, too big for the environment....Or maybe, just too big for me...Anyway, I think the RF-3s will do well, and they should arrive tomorrow....How's your Mahler collection?

Hey Horned and Blorry, Mind not stepping all over my thread with this irrelevant drivel? Start your own if you have to, but its not nice to take well meaning threads off in directions that have no relevance but to the poster adding on....Stay on topic...its good form.

Keith, I remember well your initial suggestion: UPgrade the speakers! I even remember what you suggested: RB-5. Well, I think youre right! Not about the RB-5, but about getting more powerful speakers than the SB-3..Which by the way I still really like...But I think everybody knows that its unlikely that one's first forray into HT or Audio will be their last...YOu never know going into it what you will several months later...The SB-3s were for me a great way to get into it. But now, I wanted more....And it was a very tough choice between the RF-3 and the KLF-10...It was mostly via the reviews Ive read on line which told me that the KLF 10s were weaker in the mid areas, which is crucial for Classical, than were the RF-3s. Hey, frankly, I have no idea whether this is true or not....I didnt audition the KLFs, just the RF-3s, which sounded incredible to me....Online conscensus bares this out. Whether or not they'll prove better than the Legacys I dont know...Only that I'm pretty sure that they're damn good, and that's good enough for me...Besides, I read in alot of places that if youre getting Legacy, you should get the 20s, not the 10s....But now, youre getting into BIG speakers...Too big for me...And, the REference is the 'new' line, the Legs are discontinued, etc, etc....Does any of this mean I'm making the decision I'll still be happy about 6 mos from now? Hell if I know...But, that's what the hobby's about...Actually, fixation's probably a better word than hobby....Its an obsession..One I'm going to have to slow down some after I these speakers arrive before I hit the poor house.

Thank you all (except those recommending the Bose!)...I made up my mind, and went ahead and ordered the RF-3....I decided that for classical, where the mids are so important, the KLF-10 would have suffered...The KLF-20 might have been an option, but I was a little intimidated by their size..dont forget, I'm coming from SB-3s! And the RF-3, from all I've read, sound like the perfect speaker for me....Excellent mids, great bass, wonderful stage, etc, etc...Also, I think they'll be easier to integrate with my SC-1 and SS-1 until I decide to replace them with reference. BTW, now seems to be a great time to order Klipsch on line...The cheapest I saw mine going for was $525, $529, $539.....But, all of those were sold out...So I went for $545, from a respected on line source...I also saw KLF-20s going for $735 for the pair!! So Klipsch certainly seems to be in season at the moment. I cant wait for the RF-3s to get here. This leaves me with a pair of SB-3s to sell..I also have good 21" Sanus stands with spikes and cones....I'll throw the stands in for anybody who wants the SB-3s, which are 6 mos old...I paid a full $450 from the Wiz...and I'll sell them for $300 with the stands. Thanks again.

Well, truth is, I havent heard the KLF line yet! I have heard the RF-3 and like it alot...Only problem is, its the KLF line which is selling now from legit retailers at, hold onto your hat, %45 off! This with a 30 day no questions asked warranty if you dont like them, so I have a hard time not going ahead with it...At $600 for the pair, this is probably a one time opportunity which doesnt come along every day..In answer to Blorry's question, they DO have the KLF-30 also, for $1000 for the pair, also a great price...But $600 is more my liking..Also, I think the 30s would be a little strong for my room and my 150 wpc amp..It would probably work but its alittle intimidating...Dont forget, I'm coming from SB-3s! So, the KLF-10 for $600....I've seen the RF-3 pair going for $539 at the cheapest from an internet source...Certainly, there would be no 30 day return/refund warranty on that....But can anyone say definitively whether the RF-3 or the KLF-10 sounds better, fuller, better stage, more detailed, etc, with Orchestral music? You might say that since I can return them, what's to lose? But the fact is, I live in a 1 bedroom condo hi rise apt, and room is at a premium...Its not all that easy to be flipping around 100 lb boxes of speakers, if you know what I mean. Thanks for helping me decide.

Because of their discontinuance, there are some incredible buys now on the Legend series....Specifically, I'm considering upgrading from my SB-3s to either the KLF-10 or the RF-3....I'm having a hard time making the choice though..Pricewise, theyre available now for similar dollars...So, it comes down to merrit....For mostly classical orchestral music, but with some rock, which do you think is the 'Better Speaker'? They will be driven by my 150 wpc amp. The room is 12 X 24 X 8. Thanks.

Doug, how would you compare the RF-3s to the KLF-10s? I've seen very good prices on the KLF-10s. They dont have a metallic tweeter like the RF-3s, and the horn looks smaller....Are the dual 10s able to provide the midrange required of this 2-way speaker? The crossover is 2300, while its only 1975 with the RF-3s...I'm concerned that the dual 10s would have to go a little higher than even the dual 8s...Or, is it a non issue, and do the KLF-10s sound as good as the RF-3s....Thanks.

>>my first pick up some Discoed KLF 30's << Since when are they discontinued? I thought they were continuing these along with their new Reference series models.

Ok, well then, I DO have a fairly decent, high rated but not great but adequate sub in my Sony SAWM40 which I'm using with my SB-3s. I've checked my freq. response with and without the sub...Unfortunately, my room causes a weird drop in DB around 75 hz...I dont think its the speakers, because I experience this approx 8 db falloff around 75 hz, but it plateaus at that level down to 50 hz, after which, it quickly falls off.....But, with the Sub going, crossed over around 80 hz, I dont experience this falloff...Now, the system is fairly flat, cept for a lousy room causing ups and downs between frequency...But overall, its flat down to 30 hz. Does this mean that an upgrade to either SF-2 or RF-3 would no longer be a big bang-for-the-buck improvement? Or will either or both of those give me not just bass, but better midrange also? I'm having a hard time trying to decide whether or not to upgrade, given that I do have a sub which some of you were questioning...And if I DO upgrade, should it be to an SF-2 or an RF-3? And, if I go to the RF-3, will my receiver's level controls be able to overcome the 4 db increase in sensitivity of the RF-3s? It should because the range goes I think from -10 to +10 db. Sorry for all the questions, but as I say, I'm having a hard time deciding which alternative to take..

Yes Dr. Kevin, you have diagnosed the disease correctly, I'm afraid...The tingling anticipation that grips your sole as you make the last connection...The hyperventilation you struggle to get under control..All of that, and more! But alas, look what the result of your disease is: Klipsch speakers and McIntosh power.....nothing wrong with that...Only question is, did you go right to the Macs, or did you piddle around with lesser alternatives along the way, each time convincing yourself that it would sound just as good.>....and, look at all the money you'd save...Until a few months later, that inevitable 'call of the wild' would once again possess your sole.....

Ah, Max, true, that IS the question I should be asking myself....However, like all audiophiles, or those aspiring along those lines, even though we may not be able to put our finger on what specifically we dont like about our system, or wish were better, that doesnt stop us from that queasy, uneasy feeling that 'I bet it can be even better'! How? I dont know...But, I just bet that full towers like the RF-3, or 5, or any of the KLF towers would sound better than my SB3s, even though the SB-3s sound incredibly clear, detailed, and punchy (when they should be :-) )...I guess at this point, the only way to proceed would be to go through the work involved with schlepping a pair of these 200 lb towers home, and auditioning them next to my monitors....Unfortunately, the only real way to do that is to find a hi end dealer who handles the line, because usually, over the net where prices are good, unless their damaged, you buy em, you own em.... thanks.