DBX to BBE to Nureality Hook-up

[stickman81]

I apologize in advance for my lack of understanding of the tape loop, but I am fairly certain I don't have this hooked up correctly. The above equipment is coming off a Pioneer receiver Tape2, but after that is where the confusion starts. Ins & Outs, Source & Tapes, Record & Play..... confusing to me....why can't they all call them by the same thing. Because it is called a loop, does it start at the Tape2 out - go through my DBX, BBE, and Nureality, and then end up back at the Tape2 in? Any help on how this should be connected would be GREATLY appreciated.

[colterphoto1]

yes, it's a 'loop' but easier just to look at in and out singularly first.

From receiver think of input side first so it'll be out/play from tape deck to in of next component in line. Then out/play of that one, so on until you reach tape in on receiver.

Output side is just the opposite. The signal that you would record comes 'out' of the receiver to in/rec side of components in reverse order of above until you reach in/rec of tape deck at the far end.

In this way, each component could theoretically be switched in/out of the loop by means of it's associated in/out button. Note that if you're recording with one of the effects switched in, the effect takes place in that direction, but the BBE for instance, doesn't operate AGAIN on the way back in the PLAY circuit. Each component works only one direction.

Not to slap your wrists, but this hook-up is a fairly simple concept. You might want to hang out with some hi-fi people for a while before you attempt to connect these pieces of equipment. In order to not break something, cause electronic feedback, etc. you might need better knowledge of how these rather sophisticated components operate before plugging them in. You also need to understand how they work on the audio signal so that you can attach them in the proper order. Sequence of processing does matter quite a bit.

Write back if you need more clarification. Merry Christmas

Michael

[Frzninvt]

If your setup is not working when you engage "Tape 2" it may be due to the fact that most if not all newer receivers no longer offer a "Tape Monitor" loop. My Denon AVR-3300 & AVR-4800 did subsequent models dropped it.

My NAD T-163 A/V Pre/Pro has one but when engaged will only playback in two channel mode. Is this a newer receiver that you are trying to hook this gear to?

[stickman81]

Thanks Michael, that does explain it (or re-confirm) what I was thinking. I had no idea about placing them in a certain order though. I think I'll spend some time talking with more people that are "wiser" than I, and see if my full understanding increases...Thx

[stickman81]

It's not the best receiver, but its what I have till I upgrade it...which is next. It's a Pioneer VSX-3300, which does have Tape2 monitor. I just don't hear much difference at all when I bypass the DBX. That's why I'm not sure I have it hooked up correctly.

[stickman81]

I have another question and I hope you can clear this up for me. On my components: DBX has Preamp & Tape recorder, BBE has Source & Tape loop, Nureality has Unit & loop. I am hoping that Tape recorder, Tape loop, and loop are all the same betweem the 3 components. Does this sound right to you. Then the other three would come off the "output" side recorded out of the receiver? Thanks again for the help....

[colterphoto1]

Think of it this way, it's like a guitar player with lots of those little signal processing boxes on the floor. The order the signal goes through the processes has a lot to do with the finished signal. He'd usually to phasing/flanging, then reverb, then eq, etc. or experiment and do things a non-normal way for a more bizarre effect.

You're doing essentially the same, but either as the signal travels TO the tape recorder or as it is played back into the receiver. Of course, you would hope to modify the signal in minute, positive ways, not garble it up. Remember that each processor will add it's own particular brand of noise to the signal as well. As this noise addds up, it can be a REAL negative to your total sound. Advice would be to plug them into your loop ONE AT A TIME and learn how the controls work on each and how to use them subtely before you gang them up and possibly make a mess of things.

My thoughts: (and I've asked bro sound mixer Dr. Who to chime in):

What does the Nureality do? Don't know where it would fit.

Is the DBX a compressor/limiter/expander or a noise reduction unit. probably last in loop if recording.

Most BBE's are a bizarre sound 'enhancer' by virtue of adding weird even order harmonics (like Aphex Aural Exciter 'c'- best example is Stevie Nicks voice). Since this adds high order harmonics, add this effect in loop before noise reduction or expansion with DBX.

Michael

[DrWho]

Sounds like we need some pics...after digging through your profile for the model numbers, I came across these:

http://www.bbesound.com/pdfs/1002_manual.pdf

and

-----------------------

Really what you want to do is first connect the BBE to your reciever and get it dialed in and working. In the pdf I linked to, you'll want to use the setup diagram at the top of page 6. Following the signal chain, you get this:

-TAPE OUT from reciever plugs into SOURCE IN on BBE

-SOURCE OUT from BBE plugs into TAPE IN on reciever

On the front panel, you'll want to put the "tape switch" into "tape mode" and the "program switch" to "source mode" as per the directions on page 9 of the pdf.

Once that is working, unplug the BBE and then we'll get to work on the DBX...

Looking at the picture I provided and assuming it's the device you currently own, then you will want to do this:

-TAPE OUT from reciever plugs into FROM PREAMP TAPE OUTPUT on DBX

-TO PREAMP TAPE INPUT from DBX plugs into TAPE IN on reciever

On the front panel you have 3 buttons: pre, post and bypass. For our purposes, let's just work with the POST button and make sure the bypass is not pushed (on both devices, the bypass let's you hear the unaltered signal so that you can make quick AB comparisons to hear how you're destroying the signal). BTW, the pre and post buttons are for monitoring your input and output signal levels...they have no affect on the actual operation of the device...when working with expansion, it'll be best to monitor the post section and when working with compression, it'll be best to monitor the input section. Either way, you are going to want to see lights bouncing with the music and get as close to peaking without actually peaking.

The threshold level determines the volume at which the compression/expander starts to kick in. and directly corresponds to the input voltage of the device. Monitor the pre levels to see whereabouts you want the device to kick in (this will be somewhere around the volume that the peaks happen above...you'll notice that the music sits around a certain level and then you want to set the knob just a bit higher than this). The amount of compression or expansion is determined by the "compress expand" knob. The impact recovery knob determines how long the change in volume should last. Larger settings make the device "slower" and smaller settings make the device "faster." I believe the ambience knob adds a little reverb to the signal to make it sound a bit fuller. If you are trying to add more punch to your system, then you are going to want to use the expander with a fast impact recovery and the threshold level set a bit high. The 3 meters showing the volume of different frequencies is really cool because it shows you what frequencies are triggering the threshold (bass heavy music is going to have more peaks in the bass range than in the mid and highs).

After you get the DBX dialed in a little bit, then we're going to have to connect both devices into the signal chain. It is best to get familiar with each device individually first so that you know the sonic characteristics of each so that you can better tune your system. One word of advice is to avoid the wow factor and try to make changes that aren't specific to one single song.

If you are using the expander to help liven up compressed recordings, then you are going to want to put the DBX first in the signal chain giving you expansion. If you are going for even more boost in the bass, then you are going to want to put the DBX last with the expansion. Another option is to run the BBE first and then use the DBX in compression mode to help tame the BBE.

Here is how you would connect the DBX then the BBE:

-TAPE OUT from reciever plugs into FROM PREAMP TAPE OUTPUT on DBX

-TO PREAMP TAPE INPUT from DBX plugs into SOURCE IN on BBE

-SOURCE OUT from BBE plugs into TAPE IN on reciever

And here is how would connect the BBE and then the DBX:

-TAPE OUT from reciever plugs into SOURCE IN on BBE

-SOURCE OUT from BBE plugs into FROM PREAMP TAPE OUTPUT on DBX

-TO PREAMP TAPE INPUT from DBX plugs into TAPE IN on reciever

Either way you are going to want to use 3 interconnect cables. If you have any more questions then let me know. I hope I didn't make this seem too complicated. The reason for the difference in labeling is due to the fact that each device was built to be used in different specific situations where those labels would make more sense.

[colterphoto1]

yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks for jumping in with research Dr. Who (my arch-rival, don't you know)

Maybe this will help you understand the function of 3BX a little better.

I think the 3BX DBX machine was usually used an an 'un-compressor'. Back in the LP/cassette days music was thought to be very compressed, ie it's dynamic range squeezed down so that it would fit in the little plastic grooves. (we now know that modern engineers have ruined the CD format by comprressing things even more, ruining the possible dynamic range of that medium, but that's another thread)

The 3BX takes it's input, splits it into three wide frequency bands (Low, mids, highs) and allows to to expand the dynamic range of the signal, ie make loud passages louder, so it sounds more 'live' and real. Best probably used on the playback side of tape loop because you wouldn't want to 'expand' the dynamics, then try to record it on tape. Would be killer on LP signal. Tweak gently.

Let us know how things are going. Youve got a lot o toys there my friend

Michael

[DrWho]

Does it actually split the three signals, or is more for monitoring purposes? I could not find any documentation on the dbx website. One thing I really love about dbx is that they always show a block diagram on top of the device. Bummer I couldn't find a good pic of it anywhere (just a partial one on the pic I provided).

When we had the tape production studio at my church (since converted to digital), we had all sorts of expander/compressors. We would record live onto a DAT and then playback at normal speed when creating the master and submaster audio cassette from which we'd then rip copies from. We would run the signal from the DAT through a compressor to help bring up the quieter parts for when listening in the car. Then we would go through a graphic EQ to reduce noise, counter the room resonances and then we would use an expander to counter the tape compression and the losses that happen when dubbing at high speed. I always thought it was funny how we would compress, EQ, then expand but it really brought out the intelligibility which is all that matters for churchy stuff.

Hmmm, all this talk about expanders. I wonder what it'd do for electrical drum kits (which always suffer no dynamic range). Sorry, getting off topic

[stickman81]

Ok, you went way out to help me & I thank you alot for that. Pictures and step by step wiring....great! I think I have it going now, and doing the components one at a time made the difference. Also, like you said - it probably makes me understand each a little better before diving in. The root of my problem started at the receiver. On the back of my Pioneer VSX-3300, Tape2/DAT Monitor RCA's confused me. Play = Tape In & REC = Tape out.

This still sounds completely backwards to me, but when I reversed them- everything seemed to come in. I wish there was more written down on the use of the DBX, E-bay sells the manual but I haven't gotten one yet. I'm still going to experiment with the order of the components, but at least it's going. The Yellowjackets are sounding really cool right now! Thanks again, and thanks to Michael for getting you to pipe in your thoughts on this. Have a great New Year.

[colterphoto1]

Dr. Who, I think the 3BX does work with three bands. If you notice the three rows of LED's will light independently. THink of it this way. If you're un-compressing (expanding) a heavy bass line, you wouldn't want that pumping away at the cymbals, it'd create a phlanging effect. likewise, if the very highs were being uncompressed, you wouldn't want that to effect the lows. Mids being very critical must breath on their own. Makes sense.

Now I want to get my PA and proecessing out and play with it. I've got so much EQ's xovers, delays. Prob should just sell it all and buy nice set of LS industrials. That's all I need for the barn yard anyway. Most of this stuff hasn't had power applied to it for 2-3 years. ALso have JBL stacks and EV TL cabinets. Maybe I'll just write it all up and sell this summer.

Michael

[DrWho]

Despite the advantages to compressing different frequency bandwidths, I don't think this particular device has that feature, but perhaps I'm wrong. Just looking at the pictures, the only part with the multiple bandwidths is the monitoring system. I would think a device that works with frequencies would have some sort of control and a seperate compression/expansion section for each bandwidth. I suppose it's possible that the frequency division is mostly hardwired (I do notice an HF and LF attenuation knob in the back), but then how do you know when it's just working on the HF or the LF sections? I honestly think that they split up the bandwidth for monitoring purposes only.

I think a manual would make this clearer since I don't think either of us has this particular device, unless of course you find it buried in that huge stack of old equipment you have