Kg-4 Modifications - Seeking Direction Regarding Modifications/Options Regarding Brighness

[EBITDA]

Thread below directed to anyone with experience regarding modification to Kg-4 and/or very similar horn designs - not relating to amplifier compatability

Background / Problem (involved but necessary):

1990 - After hearing a friends 1984 Kg-4s, (kind of like first time I ever saw a "true redhead" naked!...but that's another story) I fell in love with, and immediatly purchased several pair, new for $550/ pair for myself and a few friends. Paired mine, as did buddies, with typical mid-fi (Onkyo 105 w./ch. SS amp and Nak tape deck) and loooved them! Problem began when I converted over to CD. A certain mild, and unexplainable discomfort which I had experienced only occasionally with tape set up (fatigue), immediatly became pronounced and frequent. No one else seemed to experience it, so I figured it was a temporary issue, and since I loved the way they sounded (punchy, clear, loud etc.), I just sucked it up. Although not unbearable, discomfort lead me to trade in the Kg-4s for the newly released Forte II's. Since the IIs were i) "new and improved," ii) 3-way, and iii) a big brother to the Kg4s, I figured not only would my "unexplanable discomfort" go away, but I would also have even more of what I love about the Kg 4s due to larger drivers/larger cabinet. WRONG! I tried everything,from EQ's to different SS amps, but the ear fatigue was simply unbearable with the Fortes. (subsequently, found heritages, quartets, cornwalls etc. to have similar, but varying results.) Frustrated, by blank stares from Klipsch salesmen, and unable to find any other speakers (in my price range) that excited me, I sold my entire system due to lack of use, but have held a fondness for Klipsch/Kg-4s ever since.

1995 - Experienced similar problem a few years later when I bought used car w/existing, top of line, $3,500 aftermarket Nakamichi/Alpine system including Nak Tape, Alpine CD, Nak separates/x-overs in front and back, all driven by Alpine pre & Alpine power 4 x 35w/ch power. Clean and very loud but vocal hissing & excessive brightness lead to horrable fatigue similar to Forte IIs, worse than kg 4s. After being told that Jap. speakers are notoriously bright and due my prior fatigue issues w/ Klipsch, I kept scrapped everything but the Nak TD ($750), Alpine CD ($450) and Alpine pre-amp ($400), replacing i) Nak speakers with power hungry a/d/s speakers <(325i's in front and 325i's & SB-12 sub + sub x-over in rear) (2 x $550) + $600 = $1,700)> ii) Alpine power with a/d/s <(6 x 80w/ch a/d/s power amps, bridged) (2 x $1,500 = $3,000)>. Finally, with $6,300 (total value - excluding $500 installation/tweeking), I had a cut up car and an audio system with similar performance to my Kg 4s, Onkyo integrated and Nak Tape ($550 + $650 + $350 = $1,550). While the $6,300/car vs. $1,550/home, or 4x/1x is not apples/apples comparison, it does highlight the value proposition of a successful modification/s to the Klipsch Kg 4.

Current Request for Solution:

2005 - After recently having an AV-Receiver (Nakamachi AV-10 (5 x 100w, or 2 x 120w)] dropped in my lap, I spent a few weeks on a speaker crusade. A lot has changes since those days! The modern Klipsch lines are not for me "not up for debate!" (gigantic Hornes notwithstanding) and yet again, I was not impressed with anything below $1,500, excluding the expensive mono's which would be required to drive them "WELL." Supprisingly, came upon a pair of Kg-4's in a local audio store. Incredible! As soon as he fired up the Kg-4's, they made me smile just as they did over 15-yrs. ago! Since they were mint, I did not care one bit about paying $400, (or 75% of retail!) for 15-yr. old, used speakers. As soon as I got home I hooked them up to the AV-10 (not a bad unit) and they sounded great with only the tuner! The problem is that as soon as I added a CD player and cranked them, the ear fatigue kicked in within 45 minutes! I'm not yet ready to give up on the Kg-4's. The next day, I had someone find me 2 additiona pair of Kg-4 on the internet to use as subjects for modifications.

I am not an audiophile, nor an engeener, but I understand that there are more than a few guys out there who have experience with Kg-4 and/or horn technology modifications (crossovers, rewiring, cabinet work etc.). I even understand that there are a few solutions available. Not looking to engage in discourse on greater philosophy of optimal audio speaker designe, but looking for practical input. Any well informed or constructive suggestions regarding existing soluitons and/or an appropriate starting point for the Kg-4 would be greatly appreciated. I will have limited access to PC over next 2 weeks, however, I will follow up when able.

[sunnysal]

EBITDA,

I hope someone with your specific speakers will chime in BUT I expect there are a few things you can do:

1. swapping the caps in the crossover for the tweeter to PIO (paper in oil) tends to smooth out the sound.

2. try a tube buffer stage between your CD and your receiver, these are available from Musical Fidelity among others.

3. your amplfication and sources are keys to eliminating stridency, they are easier to swap then the speakers whose sound you love so much, so I WOULD consider upgrading the receiver and the CD player, klipsch love tubes!

regards,

tony

[EBITDA]

Nak AV-10 is "decent" but SS. Any suggestions as to short-list of reasonably priced used tubes to go after while undertaking the modification project? Possibly one that is ultra layed-back, and has enough power/current to drive 2 pair of Kg-4's, hard?

Thanks

[D-MAN]

What you are reporting as fatiguing is due to excessive DISTORTION. The degree of what is "excessive" can be very specific to you, like a particular sensitivity or something.

Horn loudspeakers produce less IM/TIM distortion than direct radiator types for the same SPL. This includes the bass, so don't just settle for the top-end being horns.

The equipment should also be low distortion. Sounds like you need to avoid cheap SS gear, too. Horns on tubes is my prescription for you.

DM

[EBITDA]

Nak AV-10 is "decent" but SS. Any suggestions as to short-list of reasonably priced used tubes to go after while undertaking the modification project? Possibly one that is ultra layed-back, and has enough power/current to drive 2 pair of Kg-4's, hard?

[michael hurd]

How about the details and furnishings in the playback room? The room has by far, the most profound effect on the quality of the reproduced sound inside of it. Second to that are the loudspeakers.

[EBITDA]

tried 2 different carped room of varying size (bedroom and living room). Given that fatigue has occured (15-yrs. ago and currently using different Kg-4s and varying types of SS, I am comfortable with the assumption that my sensitivity is resulting from the speakers. I do understand that Tubes help, and am working on trying to find reasonably priced tube solution. I am not audiophile, but I have done fair amount of research and understand that many out there who love the Klipsch but find have fatigue problems have found greatest success through replacement of eletronics (crossovers) or by installing bi-amping modification, leading to greater flexability regarding high frequency adjustments.

[sunnysal]

"reasonably priced" is a relative term. a good EL34, EL84, 6L6, KT-88 etc. based PP integrated amp would be your best bet...however I am not aware of any tube integrated amps that can drive two sets of speakers, that seems SS territory.

Manley Stingray, Shanling STP-80, Prima Luna Prologue II, Antique Sound Labs AQ1001 DT and units from Jolida, Rogue Audio, E.A.R, Quicksilver are candidates that make sweet sounding tube integrateds and can be found for under $3,000.

But $3,000 for a temporary solution seems a bad idea IMHO. Perhaps you should shop for a higher quality receiver if that is what you intend to use on a permanent basis, Denon and Yamaha have both been mentioned as sweet sounding HT recievers, I am sure others can recommend SS recievers that mate well with Klipsch.

Do not forget the possiblity of a tube CD (Cary, Ah! Nhoe Tjoeb, Jolida, shanling) or a tube buffer stage (Musical Fidelity) thrown in between the source and you favorite HT receiver to sweeten out the sound.

best of luck, tony