be patient I'm a newbie

[Cal Blacksmith]

so in your opinion is my worry about

clipping an 80wpc amp powering klipsch synergy F-3's a

necessary worry?

A

speaker rated at 90dB will be 90dB with 1 watt, etc etc. Basically the

sensitivity of the speaker dictates the starting point and then you can

calculate max SPL's and all that from there

so does sensitivity = decibels? a 97 sensitivity = 97 decibels @ 1 watt?

Short answer, yes. You need to also look at the full spec of the rating. It is usually stated like.

"97DB1 watt / 1 meter" this means that at 1 meter (3 feet) from the

speaker, you will have 97 db of sound pressure with one true watt of

electrical energy. The volume of the speaker will fall off the further

you get from it.

The mighty Cornwall 2 for example is 101db 1 watt / 1 meter. So the

starting point with them would be 101 db with one watt instead of the

97 db in your example.

[Rick_Derris]

DrWho- "Yes. 1 watt is fed to the speaker and then an SPL meter is placed one meter away - so the rating is measured to be 97dB at 1 meter with 1 watt of power.

-10 on your reciever is pretty loud, but probably not levels that will cause hearing damage; you're probably pushing 95dB, and at 0 you are pushing about 105dB. "

I'm confused, what type of scale is the dB releative to watts on? From the above example I'm guessing that -5db is actually the point where 1 watt of power is inputed in to the speaker, is that correct?

Oh, I guess while also sort of on the topic I have another question. When I'm listening to the Radio I typically have my receiver set to -41dB, music through my dvd player -45dB, but movies I have the receiver up around -25dB. Why is that? does it have to do with the signal coming from the source being stronger or weaker? And then how does that play apart in how high you can actually turn your reciever up to?

-Rick

[JeffDurbin]

the Denon volume is adjustable from -70 to 18db (don't know how accurate the db level is). lounging around listening to music i usually have it at about -10 and need to turn it down to hear people trying to talk to me. if I'm on the deck with windows open it may reach 0. kind of scared to go any higher but would like to be able to without damaging the speakers.

i fried 3 Denon surrounds 80wrms, 2 tweeters in technics floorstand 120wrms, (separate occasions, same receiver) with the volume never any higher than 5. (they weren't near as efficient as klipsch). that is the cause for my concern. i paid a whole lot more cash for klipsch than i have ever paid for a speaker before (probably more than all totaled). i don't want to screw them up.

by the way i have perfect hearing (tested yearly as work requirement) and have been loving it loud for a long time.

SWMBO on the other hand has nerve deafness (from birth) and tends to listen at higher volumes than i.

wish i could put a Governor on the volume knob to prevent her from inadvertently screwing up my speakers.

if i were to purchase a new receiver what is a good rule of thumb for wattage? 1.5x speaker RMS per channel?

(i know theres more involved than watts. THD,frequency response, etc, ) just questioning recommended watts right now.

My first comment would be an observation that Denon and Technics are not known as high-end speaker manufacturers (I didn't know Denon made speakers to tell the truth).

I just read this:

http://www.klipsch.com/newscenter/feature.aspx?cid=1051

If you scroll down to the Invest in Enough Power section, you will read their recommendation "to buy at least as much power as your speakers are rated to handle". Pushing a weak amp will cause more damage than having an amp rated higher than the speaker's max power limit.

[DrWho]

I'm confused, what type of scale is the

dB releative to watts on? From the above example I'm guessing

that -5db is actually the point where 1 watt of power is inputed in to

the speaker, is that correct?

Ok, we already covered the SPL output of a

speaker based on an amplifiers output. The SPL's that I correlated to

the volumes on the Denon were just approximations based on previous

experience with very similar amps and speaker outputs. To be

technically correct, I suppose we could assume that +18 on the dial

corresponds to the 80 watts max continuous output and then assume that

+8 on the dial is 10dB down from +18...then we can find the setting on

the reciever that corresponds to 1 watt of output into an 8 ohm load (I

think that makes 0 on the dial correspond to about 1 watt of output).

So at 0 on the dial, the F3's will be putting out a combined 100dB (97

dB for one speaker plus 3dB for adding the second speaker - basically

doubling the acoustical output). I guess that makes -10 on the dial

more around 90dB, guess I was off by 5dB []

Oh, I guess

while also sort of on the topic I have another question. When I'm

listening to the Radio I typically have my receiver set to -41dB, music

through my dvd player -45dB, but movies I have the receiver up around

-25dB. Why is that? does it have to do with the signal

coming from the source being stronger or weaker? And then

how does that play apart in how high you can actually turn your

reciever up to?

Well the different devices probably have

different output levels, but movies also have a much wider dynamic

range. The loudest any digital source can get is "0dB" (everything

quieter is referenced as negative values), so the loudest point in a

movie (probably some explosion) can't be any louder than 0dB....so if

the movie is going to maintain its impact for the explosions, then the

dialog is going to be a good 10 or 15dB quieter - but you want to hear

the dialog as loud as your other sources so you have to turn it up.

Another factor contributing to this is that the radio and even music is

a lot more compressed, which makes it seem louder than it actually is,

causing you to turn down the volume.

[strutter]

Drwho (loved that show as a preteen/teen by the way, should be in rerun now but sadly isn't)

wow thats a lot of info..exactly what i hunger for.

The reason your receiver can go above 0 is if you have your channel settings set to 0. Let's say you boost the center channel by 18dB (i know it's not possible, but just an analogy). when you turn the volume up to 0, your center channel is actually at 18 which is now running the amplifier wide open. I'm not sure about your model, but I've seen them where the absolute max gets reduced when you boost the gain on a single channel.

the manual says if the volume for any channel is set at +1db or greater , the volume cannot be adjusted up to 18db. (in this case the maximum volume is adjusted to "18db _(maximum value of channel level)".)

If however your wife is satisfied listening at 0, then by all means keep your current setup and save your money for other more important upgrades...one of the main reasons we naturally enjoy loud music is because we enjoy having a physical response to the music. And one thing that greatly improves the experience is a really potent subwoofer - so I would suggest saving up for a Sub-12 to go with your mains - not only will you get more impact from the music, but you can set your mains to small which will greatly improve the midrange response

she actually says 0 is too loud (feedback in her hearing aids) which is a good thing for my speakers i suppose. she has lost almost all of her high frequency and is overly sensitive to low frequency.

a larger sub is in the works. she'll just have to turn it down when I'm not here if it bothers her . my current sub is a Denon 8" that came with the home theater in a box. 8" sub ha ha ha..

And lastly, does your Denon have a Zone 2 feature on it

yes, actually it does. tried it with very small speakers, sounds crappy. before i fried the technics i would carry them outside and plug them up. they sounded good enough. i will look into the outdoor speakers or maybe some decent bookshelf speakers and just carry them out when i want to.

yep. it's hurtin' ...but feed me as much as you can stand .. i can handle it.

[strutter]

jeff-The Denon speakers were surrounds that came with a home theater in a box. not sure about the quality of these surrounds but they do make some highly acclaimed speakers under the mission label. but none any larger than bookshelves. and yep i know the technics i had were crap. but they worked for me until i got more interested in real sound and video. and they were second hand at 50$ for the pair. and lasted me 5 years. thanks for the link.

[DrWho]

Drwho (loved that show as a preteen/teen by the way, should be in rerun now but sadly isn't)

The series is actually back on the air over in

England on BBC - yes brand new episodes [] They spent the last 2

years casting and doing demo's with the cult-following to make sure

they kept the same old fashioned low budget feel. And of course they

started out the season with the Daleks [] It seems they're finally

starting to come out with dvd box sets too. Once they're all out I bet

my dad is going to purchase the entire set...which is a crap load of

dvd's when you think about it because Doctor Who is thee longest

running TV series ever (Simpsons is #2). Btw, I think that makes about

half a dozen guys on the forum that have seen the show.

she

actually says 0 is too loud (feedback in her hearing aids) which is a

good thing for my speakers i suppose. she has lost almost all of her

high frequency and is overly sensitive to low frequency.

a larger

sub is in the works. she'll just have to turn it down when I'm not here

if it bothers her . my current sub is a Denon 8" that came with

the home theater in a box. 8" sub ha ha ha..

I bet once you get a real sub in there that she

won't be as "overly sensitive" to the lower frequencies...the reason

being that that dinky little 8" sub is adding distortion if anything

else, lol. The really low frequencies will go well beyond the reaches

of the mic on her hearing aid, so she'll prob be able to enjoy the super lows (that rock your body).

My girlfriend is mostly deaf in one ear and has a little loss in the

other ear so I have an idea of where your wife is coming from. I find

it interesting though that Kait (the gf) totally picks out most

everything I notice "wrong" with speakers too - so she's like my sanity

checker cuz sometimes I feel like I'm the only one hearing things (if

only those voices inside my head would get quiter!)

yes, actually it does. tried it with very

small speakers, sounds crappy. before i fried the technics i

would carry them outside and plug them up. they sounded good enough. i

will look into the outdoor speakers or maybe some decent bookshelf

speakers and just carry them out when i want to.

yep. it's hurtin' ...but feed me as much as you can stand .. i can handle it.

I think with better speakers you will notice that

the zone2 sounds much better if not the same as your main channels

(just less power usually). I frequently use the Zone2 to AB between

speakers and don't notice any difference in amplifier sound once I've

got them playing at the same volume.

[Rick_Derris]

Thank you very much for the help understanding this all. So, just to get this straight, my reciever has 120w per channel. So at +18dB, it is outputting 120W, and then I just work backwards from there to find the spot where 1w is outputed?

Then just one other little thing I noticed last night, I have the SF-3, SS-3 and SC-3. They are rated at 150w, 125w, 150w, respectively (if memory servers me correctly). But on the sticker on the back of the speaker, it says max input = 100w. If the speakers are 150w, why is it saying only input 100w? Is it just a safety type thing to help prevent you from destroying your speaker?

Thanks again for all your help,

-Rick

[strutter]

Drwho (loved that show as a ***/teen by the way, should be in rerun now but sadly isn't)

wonder why it blanked out the word preteen above wonder if it will do it again? pre-teen....preeeteeeeen

[DrWho]

Thank you very much for the help

understanding this all. So, just to get this straight, my

reciever has 120w per channel. So at +18dB, it is outputting

120W, and then I just work backwards from there to find the spot where

1w is outputed?

Assuming that your volume dial is perfectly

logorithmic then yes - I believe the dials might actually be linear, so

there will be some discrepencies (moreso at the lower end of the

spectrum). I've never actually measured to see if +-10 on the dial is

equal to +-dB on the SPL meter. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to actually

measure it one of these days - though I'm not sure if we really need to

know where the 1 watt point is.

Then just one other little thing I noticed last

night, I have the SF-3, SS-3 and SC-3. They are rated at 150w,

125w, 150w, respectively (if memory servers me correctly). But on

the sticker on the back of the speaker, it says max input = 100w.

If the speakers are 150w, why is it saying only input 100w? Is it

just a safety type thing to help prevent you from destroying your

speaker?

That would be a klipsch question...perhaps they

changed standards for how the wattage is calculated and you got one of

the earlier models on the older standard? I really woudn't worry about

it because you should use your ears to determine when you are

overdriving the speaker. Btw, it's a lot easier to hear that the

speaker is clipping (being overdriven) because you will hear

distortion; either the woofer bottoms out or chuffs and the midrange

just gets real nasally and annoyingly shrill sounding. It's hard to

hear when an amp is about to clip, which is bad because once it does

clip at those volumes, the already warm voicecoils are quick to burn up

(when an amp clips you get a burst of DC current, which heats wires a

lot faster than AC currents). here's a picture of what clipping looks

like, and is true for any device in the signal chain (even speakers):

[strutter]

I think that makes about half a dozen guys on the forum that have seen the show.

does that make me old?[][]
don't think I'll buy the DVD's I'd like to watch them though
I find it interesting though that Kait (the gf) totally picks out most everything I notice "wrong" with speakers too
yep, sometimes i swear she's just ignoring me, especially when she repeats what I've just said in verbatim but says she didn't hear me say that when i tell her "thats what i just said"

thanks for all the help. i think i will still be on the lookout for a deal on a receiver that satisfies my desires but wont be in such a hurry. I am currently looking at subs. and outdoor speakers. Christmas ain't far away, maybe i can talk the in-laws into believing that my kids really need them from Santa this year![6]

do you have any experience with the

Klipsch Synergy Series 2-Way Indoor/Outdoor Speakers

Model: KHO-7
(found at BB site)

[DrWho]

Well I'm only 21...most all the Doctor Who episodes that I've see were recorded by my aging dad (haha []) who watched them years ago on an old TV

with rabbit ears (so not the best quality by any means). I've prob seen

every episode at least 30 times by now if not more - and we still watch

them to this day (I wonder when they're gonna get boring...lol).

The outdoor speakers at Best Buy are pretty decent - the only problem

is they are a bit lacking in the bass, though just about any speaker

that size will be. I had a friend who owned a pair and they were able

to fill his backyard with sound. It was great for BBQ'ing and all that.

Btw, maybe you should also have your kids put the speakers on their xmas lists too []

[strutter]

it's a lot easier to hear that the speaker is clipping (being overdriven) because you will hear distortion; either the woofer bottoms out or chuffs and the midrange just gets real nasally and annoyingly shrill sounding. It's hard to hear when an amp is about to clip

that was going to be my next question on the forum. i know what an over driven speaker sounds like but what does a clipping amp sound like? can you actually hear something missing from the sound? does it pop? sound scratchy?

It's hard to hear when an amp is about to clip, which is bad because once it does clip at those volumes, the already warm voicecoils are quick to burn up

it just toasts the speaker leaving you wondering why........by the time you hear it ,it's too late?

[strutter]

I'm 36 and though I'm not sure i think they were reruns i watched as a kid. came on PBS. a couple of friends and i would get together and watch it whenever we could. it really would be disappointing to watch them now and not like it (so many other shows i used to love seem so corny now). i knew it was B rated scifi way back then though and still enjoyed it (i think thats why). the show definitely had a cult following ,even then, i think it takes a special sort of person to appreciate it.

the only problem is they are a bit lacking in the bass, though just about any speaker that size will be.

sort of what i was thinking too. difficult to get good bass out of a 5" speaker and such small enclosures. maybe I'll still give them a try..might look around and see what others are available first. don't suppose anyone makes an outdoor sub? could use the 8" Denon to rattle the deck boards! [<)]

[DrWho]

it's a lot easier to hear

that the speaker is clipping (being overdriven) because you will hear

distortion; either the woofer bottoms out or chuffs and the midrange

just gets real nasally and annoyingly shrill sounding. It's hard to hear when an amp is about to clip

that

was going to be my next question on the forum. i know what an over

driven speaker sounds like but what does a clipping amp sound like? can

you actually hear something missing from the sound? does it pop?

sound scratchy?

It's

hard to hear when an amp is about to clip, which is bad because once it

does clip at those volumes, the already warm voicecoils are quick to

burn up

it just toasts the speaker leaving you wondering why........by the time you hear it ,it's too late?

The sound of a distorting amp sounds different for every amp - and

different topologies aren't as dangerous as others. For example, take a

tube amp (some of the guys here will hate me for this) - a lot of the

guys love running them into distortion because it helps fatten up the

sound...and it's not likely they're going to break anything unless they

really overdrive it hard (think of a tube guitar amp - that distortion

really adds the crunch to make them sound great). However an SS amps

starts to sound "brittle" and harsh when being clipped; bass notes make

a pop sound and it's just not pleasant at all. The midrange gets shrill

- an electric guitar whale will sound like that steam whistle thing

when you've got a lid on a pot of boiling water. And then within a

second or two you will see smoke coming outta your tweeters. Woofers

don't tend to burn up because their voicecoil wires are thicker and

there is more cone movement which means they cool better too. However

tweeters don't move much and they have tiny cables so they melt really

fast. It's usually not tooooo expensive to get a replacement diaphragm

and fix the speaker, but it is a hassle...and you get this empty bad

feeling the first time it happens. If it makes you feel any better,

your Denon probably has clipping protection and will just turn itself

off if it detects any form of clipping - it's a cool feature but it's

better not to depend on it (though if you want to test it, it might be

fun to hook up your dinky denon and go full blast on the denon....it

prob won't hurt the sub too much if it all...and if it does "oh well")

[]

But don't forget, driving an amp into clipping can also break the amp

as well...if you let it get too hot (so just drive it into the clip

protection before it burns up). When I was working at Audio Designs in

Michigan it was common practice to see how long a speaker could take a

clipping amp and how long the amp would clip before it burned (which

involved bypassing protection circuitry). Crowns were always the best

and could go for minutes with the red clipping lights solid....speaking

of which, does your reciever have pre-outs?

[strutter]

, your Denon probably has clipping protection and will just turn itself off if it detects any form of clipping - it's a cool feature but it's better not to depend on it

manual says it has a protector circuit that is activated if played at high volumes for long periods with speakers with lower impedance than recommended.(recommended 6 to 16ohms)

, driving an amp into clipping can also break the amp as well

i actually ended up purchasing the F-3's as a result of this ,i believe. i was drunk and listening to 5 channel stereo really loudly while on the deck. the receiver shut off and i assumed the cat had loosened a wire or something. i checked the wiring then powered up the system(stupid cat ....not), i didn't notice any thing strange about the sound .so i crunk it up an went back outside.(stupid me...yep) it shut off again. and this time wouldn't power back up. i thought speaker or wire connection. i left it alone until the next day. what i found was that 2 of the speakers ohmed out @ 0 resistance. but with them unplugged the receiver still wouldn't power up. to shorten the story the service tech said they had to replace a transformer in the receiver.

some good actually came out of this..1. i learned a very important lesson. 2.i ended up buying the F-3's 3. since they couldn't replace the speakers (said no longer available) under the service contract they gave me a voucher to get a new home theater in a box and i still got to keep the Denon receiver that they had repaired. but they no longer carried Denon and the closest thing to allowable price range was a JVC system.

know anyone looking to purchase a JVC THC-7?

does your receiver have pre-outs?

the Denon only has sub pre-out

[strutter]

if a speaker is rated at 97db, is 97db the point at which the speaker is designed to perform best?

[DrWho]

if a speaker is rated at 97db, is 97db the

point at which the speaker is designed to perform best?

I

would think a speaker manufacture would design a speaker to sound its

best at the volumes that they think the speaker will be played at the

most. But your question implies that a speaker changes its performance

as the volume changes...which is entirely the case! Ports change their

tuning as the air velocity changes (which corresponds to increases in

SPL because of increases in diplacement - in other words, woofer

movement increases). The drivers themselves undergo power compression

due to heat build up in the voice coil and non-linear mechanical

limitations. There are all sorts of different motor designs that react

differently to changes in SPL (which again correspond to changes in

displacement), and don't forget the nonlinearities within the speaker

surrounds and spiders. Every form of distortion also increases with SPL

(THD, FMD, cone warbling, etc etc)...When you think about it, it's

amazing that speakers can sound as good as they do.

Anyways, I

would assume Klipsch intended their speakers to sound their best in the

90dB range, but they probably make some sacrifices to improve

performance at 80 and 100dB. It definetly is an important variable and

that's why Klipsch includes a question regarding typical volume levels

on their surveys...gotta get those speakers dialed in correctly.

And

during all this we're ignoring the affects of room acoustics - which

also change with SPL! So even a perfect speaker is going to sound very

different depending on the room its in and what volume it is being

played at. Another reason why Klipsch is amazing is because they use

hornloaded drivers (which minimize all the speaker nonlinearities

mentioned earlier), but they inheritantly also have a narrower

dispersion pattern, which means the effects of the room are also far

less when compared against a super wide dispersion design (like direct

radiators).

[strutter]

yep i think you pretty much explained what i thought i was experiencing with the SF-3's. never noticed it with any other speaker I've had. the sf-3 definitely have a volume that sounds best to me , in my sitting position, in my room. there is a point in the volume where the singers voice is more pronounced and all the instruments sound the way they should. this is of course different depending on the recording. the f-3 decidedly sounds better at higher volumes.

[DrWho]

Oh wow, I thought we covered the Fletcher-Munson Equal Loundness Curves

in this thread, but apparently we didn't....The F-M curves are a chart

showing equal loundess versus SPL...in other words, it's a chart

showing us how loud different frequencies need to be in order to be

percieved as the same volume. Here's a picture of it:

-http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

Each line of the graph is a specified volume calibrated to 1kHz (which

is about the volume that would be measured on a typical SPL meter). As

you change the frequency, the volume of the source needs to either

increase or decrease depending on the sensitivity of our ears to the

particular frequency at the calibrated SPL (the measurement at 1kHz).

So when listening to a 1kHz tone at 60dB, a 30Hz frequency needs to be

80dB (20dB louder!) in order to be percieved as the same volume. But

when listening to a 1kHz tone at 90dB, the 30Hz frequency only needs to

be about 93dB (3dB louder) in order to be percieved as the same volume.

I think I said that right, lol.

So how do we use this info? In the studio, the music is most likely

being monitored right around 90dB because that is where our hearing is

the flattest (it definetly varies from person to person). If we

playback this recording in our home at 70dB, we have essentially

reduced the relative output of 30Hz material by about 12dB...just by

playing the music quieter! We however don't notice much change in the

higher frequencies (despite the graph not being flat) because the

relative loudness at 90dB is about the same at 70dB (aka, 3.5kHz will

still need to be 6dB quieter than 1kHz for both SPL's). The mixer in

the studio will have naturally compensated for the need to reduce

3.5kHz tones so we won't notice any difference in those regions as the

volume changes (this is probably the most confusing part about the F-M

curves).

The reason I bring this up is because when you're listening at 90dB,

your hearing is much flatter and you're hearing what the mixer intended

in the studio (assuming that the mixer actually monitored the mixed at

90dB). Another way to think about it is playing at louder volumes

results in a fuller sound because your ears are detecting more low

frequency information. We already calculated your listening levels to

be around the 90-100dB range, which totally corresponds to the F-M

curves and probably even the design considerations of the loudspeaker

manufacturer. The impact of the F-M curves is however much much larger

than the nonlinear behavior of the speaker at different frequencies so

that is probably what you're experiencing.