picky Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 MODERATORS: Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't solicitors supposed to be banned on this forum? Apologies if I am mistaken. Well, Tom Vodanhel (sp?) posts from time to time, and so do a few people who are in the speaker selling business, and they post deals and whatnot, so I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as that. I thought the post was informative without particularly being a sales pitch, but that's just one guy's opinion. I'm glad to hear it's made in California since it seems impossible to find Roxul or even the Dow/Corning rigid fiberglass out here. Apparently we only need the fluffy stuff. Okay, Thanks. I was just asking, guys. I too, found the post to be informative. No issues here with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Since no one seems to be mentioning this aspect... I find it a bit ironic that folks are so willing to explore very expensive options for reducing sound transmission to the rest of the house (that add NOTHING to the listening room acoustical response), but mention having the room modeled in EASE and acoustically treated correctly and everyone runs instead to hang carpets or expensive foam tiles randomly on the walls based upon aesthetics and feelings![]With all due respect, I would suggest that the priorities are completely upside down![] Here is a basic description of some wall construction techniques that you can complete for a fraction of the price!Also, may I suggest you consider splaying the wall at a rate of ~1" per foot of run to minimize standing waves. (Also, instead or coupling the layers of drywall, consider using silicone adhesive to provide a measure of decoupling of the surfaces. Soundproofing Walls1PDF.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 ...Essentially, the Quietrock is used in place of drywall... Actually, quiterock is used in ADDITION to standard drywall / sheetrock{Edit: perhaps I should read the eitire thread prior to commenting, lol} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 dragonfyr: As always, excellent information! Here's a diagram of my double wall: (Download and open to see the detail better) Latex Elastomeric caulk was applied to all studs prior to material fastenening. Another layer of the stuff was sandwiched between sheets of material. Dry wall screws were used instead of dry wall nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Hey, I am going to hang expensive random foam tiles on the walls based upon aesthetics and feelings![][][] Seriously, when I get a place of my own, I will definately set aside resources to create a room that is isolated and as quiet as possible, and also try and learn as much as I can about room modes, and the like. There is nothing worse than hearing a toilet flush, or a washing machine going when you are watching a movie, or even trying to sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 So is the whole point to provide the ablity to rock out as loud as you want while your 'light-sleeper' wife and/or infant are tucked in comfy on the other side of the wall? Seems to me that you could achieve the same performance with just a bit of careful planning and moderate use of Homasote board & insulation if the HT / Listening room were located further away from bedrooms. of-course my tiny house doesn't even have room for a HT, much less one that is located further away from the bedrooms [] BTW Picky, looks like dang fine wall construction that could also serve as good cover in a small arms fire fight, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 "So is the whole point to provide the ablity to rock out as loud as you want while your 'light-sleeper' wife and/or infant are tucked in comfy on the other side of the wall?" That is one benefit.... the other benefit is the reduced noise floor in the actual room. Would you not rather have the noise floor at 40 - 45 db, rather than 50 - 55 db? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 So is the whole point to provide the ablity to rock out as loud as you want while your 'light-sleeper' wife and/or infant are tucked in comfy on the other side of the wall? Seems to me that you could achieve the same performance with just a bit of careful planning and moderate use of Homasote board & insulation if the HT / Listening room were located further away from bedrooms. of-course my tiny house doesn't even have room for a HT, much less one that is located further away from the bedrooms. Actually.....No. The bedrooms weren't a consideration. We have no small children and my wife is usually "rocking" right along with me. We did this to eliminate the noise from the utility room and keep it from bleeding over into the theater of our tiny, little house: furnace noise, washer, dryer, etc. The best part is: It works! The rest of our walls were single-studded with the membrane mounted on top of the studs beneath the drywall. No noticable reflection problems in the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I think you will find that a more significant source of sound transmission contributing to your ambient noisefloor is actually via the ductwork for your HVAC system then via the walls! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I have a link here somewhere that shows the SRC's of different methods and one thing it noted was that a double studded application had a better RTC with no insulation between the walls. It makes sense when you think about it because the denser the material between the walls, the easier it is for vibrations to travel. Ideally we would want to be able to create a total vacumm between the walls because then there would be no medium through which the vibrations could travel. This method then of course requires that the outer segments of the walls (the drywall) rejects vibrations as much as possible. So double panes and all that significantly improve results. I saw another test done that showed that a single large empty space between panels worked better than a space twice as wide with a third panel in the very middle. So the goal is to have as much mass on both sides of the barrier and then as little mass on the inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 "I have a link here somewhere that shows the SRC's of different methods and one thing it noted was that a double studded application had a better RTC with no insulation between the walls." Light insulation in the walls isn't to improve SRC, it is to reduce the possibility of the air cavity resonating. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 "I think you will find that a more significant source of sound transmission contributing to your ambient noisefloor is actually via the ductwork for your HVAC system then via the walls!" Yup, ductwork can be a big problem. I use a mini-split ductless heat pump in my room to avoid that issue. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 "I think you will find that a more significant source of sound transmission contributing to your ambient noisefloor is actually via the ductwork for your HVAC system then via the walls!" Sure, that is why you should have at least 2 90 degree bends in the duct work, and make the physical size of the ductwork as large as practical. Applying damping material to the outside of the ducts does have some merit. There are also many different duct silencers that you can purchase or make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 There are other solutions as well, radiant heating rather than forced-air. Up here, we don't usually have to worry about cooling, unlike places like Texas, where winter means you have a month to get the air conditioner fixed...[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I find it a bit ironic that folks are so willing to explore very expensive options for reducing sound transmission to the rest of the house (that add NOTHING to the listening room acoustical response), but mention having the room modeled in EASE and acoustically treated correctly... Options for my planned audio room are very limited due to existing architectural constraints... but if you have EASE and are interested in modeling it, I'd more than gladly send you the AutoCAD drawings. The room has numerous offsets, doors, structural elements, and a staircase.[] Once completed, these could then be compared to the measured ETF room modes. So is the whole point to provide the ablity to rock out as loud as you want while your 'light-sleeper' wife and/or infant are tucked in comfy on the other side of the wall? That is what I would have liked... as I believe my equipment noise floor is already pretty low. I have electrical heating, electric hot water tank, washer and dryer are separated by another room (and mostly used by me), cast iron drain pipes don't run over the space, and no HVAC... hmmm... At night, all I hear is some street traffic through the closed windows (double panes). Acoustically insulating sleeping quarters isn't very easy when they are directly above a audio room with a low ceiling (and an infinite baffle sub). ROb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 There are other solutions as well, radiant heating rather than forced-air. Up here, we don't usually have to worry about cooling, unlike places like Texas, where winter means you have a month to get the air conditioner fixed...[] Radiant heating?? I thought you simply sleep cuddled with the sled dogs?[] The acoustics must be hell in your igloo![][] ...Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a! [][][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 My brother Dan uses radiant baseboard heat. ( through the use of a very large homebuilt outdoor wood stove ) The house he purchased used to have an oil-fired boiler in the basement, until he built the first outdoor stove. The grundfos circulating pump draws a mere 40 watts, is turned on via the thermostat, and the draft solenoid is actuated via the aquastat, inserted in the water jacket. My brother Bill uses a homebuilt outdoor wood stove, only his existing forced air furnace was retained, and a water to air exchanger is mounted in the plenum. ( much like adding an air conditioning system ) The existing furnace fan blows hot air through the exchanger, and then through all the ductwork. Much more economical than the propane furnace to operate. Using a water to water exchanger that is hooked to the outdoor stove ( again homebuilt ), and pioneer fliud couplers, Bill keeps his 425 horse Caterpillar at 150 degrees F, under the hood of his Classic XL Freightliner, in even the coldest weather. (< - 40 C) In cold weather, he can fire the truck instantly and go to work as soon as it builds air. In the first month of building the exchanger and hooking it up ( needed to buy 50 feet of heater hose, a new set of couplers and another circulating pump, he saved almost $ 200 CDN, over leaving a 1500 watt block heater and an oil pan heater plugged in. (I know, it's O/T, but still relevant in the heating dept) For new construction, you can consider radiant in-floor heating that runs off of a direct vent oil furnace, that is sized to fit between standard 16o.c. studs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Underfloor radiant heating is the way to go now that they have gotten the cross-linked polyethylene tubing down. Especially if you live in an area where underground geo-thermal heat pumps make sense running of the ground temp rather then the air. And micro-hydo is ideal for areas with a spring or creek, while wind, and solar sources have increased dramatically in output and economy. Not to mention Tulikivi stoves and other efficient wood and pellet technologies. Complimentary systems using appropriate technologies to the site have come a heck of a long ways in the past 30 years. Definately the way to go... But I want to hear about radiant heat and the sled dogs![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Again getting a little O/T, but if you live in a Northern climate, and are considering an outdoor wood stove, make sure that it has a large water jacket. All of the stoves that my family members have ( 4 in total ) were all homebuilt, and many lessons were learned along the way. V1 that Dan built had a draft that was mounted too low in the door, and sloped downwards. This meant that hot coals could actually come out when the stove draft opened. Also, the length of chimney ( stainless steel chip pipe ) was a little excessive, at 16 feet. This caused a very high velocity through the 4x4" draft, and the stove would frequently make subwoofer-like resonances that could be heard inside the house. The water jacket was adequate, but was increased on V2, so there was a need to only fill it once a day in all but the coldest weather. The door uses a heat deflector plate on the inside to help reduce the warpage. V3 used a shorter chimney and even more water jacket (350 u.s. gallon capacity) , better door/draft design. V4 used a similar technique, this time the door was moved up in the barrel, and made slightly smaller, again using the deflector plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Again getting a little O/T, but if you live in a Northern climate, and are considering an outdoor wood stove Apart from the fact that most wood stoves emit substantial pollutants, I would run out trees within a heating season or two given the number of local municipal parks. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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