ACDCRB25 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Hey everyone, i'm currently testing out a pair of RC25 centers and loving them... they of course match up QUITE well with my RB25 bookshelves (fronts). I love their sound and everything but I am wondering what would be a better deal for the dollar (opting for the $800 RF25 fronts, RSW10 sub for a grand or so, the center and the rw8 $330) or some other audio upgrade? Of course if I do get some new fronts the bookshelves would be set into the rear (unless i got another pair of them), my system is quite good too my tastes but because of my larger room size the sound isn't bouncing off the wall as well as I think it should... I am going to do a MCCAC config on it fairly soon too see if I notice any improvements. Can you share any insight or suggestions too aid me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisc Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I dont see a sub in your sig, so I'll assume you dont have one. Rsw-10 or if you can swing it the rsw-12 or 15 for that matter. that would be my next step, it will fill in what the RB's leave out. I would think that the rsw-12 could be had for 1k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 yes that is correct that I do not have a sub, do you recommend I take the center channel back and grab a sub until i can upgrade again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 What are your future plans for your system? This will pretty much dictate what would be the most logical choice in your situation. Right now you are strictly 2-channel with the RB-25's? Though a sub would be a very good upgrade you run the risk of getting better mains in the future and then needing to upgrade your sub again. So if you do upgrade your sub, go all out and get something that you can keep in the future, even if you upgrade to a better pair of mains (say the RF35). At this juncture I would recommend upgrading your mains because you will get a lot more bass than you've been getting and this will make it easier to find a sub that blends well with your mains. You will also be able to bump the RB-25's into surround duty, which yields surround sound with a phantom center (just tell your reciever that you don't have a center and it reroutes the info to the mains). So you're getting a lot of bang for the buck. Then depending on the quality of your center image you might consider getting an actual center channel or upgrading the subwoofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 DrWho Right now I currently only OWN a 2 channel RB25 system and I am borrowing the RC-25 Center and loving it, it allows me to take some burden off of the mains and allows me too increase the volume without the whole system bogging down/reaching its peak (or distort). My plan for the system in its final stages are: RF25 Mains (35 if I decide I can afford it), RC-25 Center, RSW10/RW12, RB25 Surrounds (own), pioneer VSX1015TX receiver If I need more driving power. That is what I envision my system being, if by some chance I win a lottery or such I will finish this one up and create a flagship one and have this one for the upstairs set [] The Question now is, would you recommend I keep the center or buy a sub or some better mains and have the rb25 as surrounds, what do you think would sound better in a non MCCAC'd room with dimensions of (not including opened doors/otherr non doored rooms) 22 feet squared roughly. The listening position is roughly 12 feet from the speaker system and therefore 10feet from the back wall, and it is about five feet from the side wall (where the speakers are). So you can help me assess what would be the best accousitcal upgrade (provide the best surround experience or pseudo-surround) I did up a drawing of the room which can be seen below: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisc Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 sorry for not responding earlier, I am busy as hell. DR. who will give you knowledgable sound advice, and I think he is correct as far as surrounds, you would get the low end from the mains and surrounds to boot. then you can hold out for a good sub. Its tough choice!! But if you cant afford everything at once I would just get better equipment and then wait and save. looking at that picture I wonder if you can move that media center into the center of one of the walls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 I kinda took the shortcut while doing that picture, too the left of the "Media Center" is an open area, and too the right of it is a room with another door (too the right of that door yet is a fairly large closet, so that is where the media center has too be. I will contribute more too ths thread when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 The reason you probably notice so much improvement with your center channel is because you have an assymetrical layout, such that the reflections are vastly different for each channel, thus shifting the center image towards the right. This shifting also occurs differently at different frequencies which is going to cause a smearing effect (probably what you percieve as a "burdening" of the speakers). You notice it more at louder volumes because of a likely high noise floor in the room, which acts to partially mask these reflections until the volume is increased (the problem also gets compounded by the increased magintude of the other reflections as compared to the noise floor as well). So when you add the center channel, not only are you partially lessening the assymetrical reflections, you are also establishing a less smeared central image (less right and left shifting as the frequencies change). The point here is that your speakers are by no means being "burdened" in the sense of being overdriven, but rather you have acoustical issues that need to be resolved. With some proper tweaking you should be able to achieve the "unburdened" central image without even having the center channel! - only once this is achieved will you then be able to fully appreciate the benefits of adding the center speaker and we will be taking your system to a totally different level without even spending more money [] So how do we resolve it? Well ideally you could just reorganize the layout of the room in such a way as to achieve better symmetry. You mentioned a few doors and closets in the room that aren't in the picture...perhaps a better drawing showing their location? The way I understand your description, you should be totally capable of sliding the media center over a bit to the "right" (when looking at the picture)??? Is this media center a single piece? And where are your RB-25's currently positioned? On some shelf in the media center? When you move to floorstanding speakers you will probably need to shift the center to the right to provide room for the main speakers. Would you be able to rotate the system so that it fires out at an angle into the room? A couple feet here and there could make a world of difference to the sound (both with imaging and bass response). Also, are you toe-ing in your speakers? Ideally you want to be able to look down the throat of the horn from the main listening position. But with your FR main, you might consider toe-ing in a bit further so as to move the reflection point back further. In your current configuration I would say a 45 degree toe-in regardless of the listening position so that the 90 degree horizontal dispersion is never bouncing off that side wall. Experimentation will of cousre be necessary, but hopefully this is giving you an idea of what you're trying to accomplish (no side reflections while also pointing the speaker at you). As you move the media center to the right (looking at the pic) or even rotate the whole center (which also implies moving the listening position), then the need for drastic toe-in diminishes and you can achieve a better direct-to-reflected sound ratio. If you could draw a more elaborate diagram of your room we could draw you up a few more placement options that you might consider (so the better you draw, the better we can help you). Don't forget to include all the furniture. I know rearranging the room can be a hassle (both with moving stuff around and keeping the wife happy), but it will definetly result in some of the best improvements you'll ever make to your system. In fact, this is very true for every system, which is why some of the first recommendations you are getting are regarding the room layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I almost forgot... I still think you would notice a much better improvement by going with the floorstanding mains (try to get the RF-35's if you can swing it). You will end up with more bass, surround speakers, and because the floorstanders will be placed on the floor (instead of in the media center) you will probably notice a lot of improvement with the imaging. If you still feel you get a better sound with a center channel, then by all means scratch the surrounds and temporarily use one of the RB-25's as a center channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 VERY helpful and informative post, Tomorrow (as my family is currently sleeping) I will run the MCCAC test and config on the room too see if I notice a major improvement or not... I have just taken a few pictures of the room too completly explain my room layout, no more sketchy drawings that aren't detailed... I got the real pictures here for yah.. lol The pictures can be found here: http://www.kazien.com/2005_11_08/ DrWho all your questions about the media center and room locations will be asnwered in the pictures, If I did get towers I would probably take off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make sense of moving the equipment. Anyway I'm off too sleep for the night, and I'll run the MCCAC in the morning and see what the results are cheers EDIT: I guess for now I will be holding off on the upgrades as I just got fired from my production job at Inventronics, but still lets keep this conversation going for future ideas on what would be the best path for me.... I have the itch and the bug for better sound quality and harmonics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Job or not, I'm in the process of looking for a new one so I can continue my HT upgrade plans, chance are I can find a job that pays even better so I can upgrade both sooner and get higher end equipment then I originally planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 good answer Doc, much better than the quip I would have made...[H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sorry to hear about your job... Btw, take your time upgrading your system. A good speaker purchase can last you a lifetime + some so don't cut corners because you want something right away. You'll be mad at yourself later on down the road. If I did get towers I would probably take off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make sense of moving the equipment. If you do this, then I would highly highly recommend moving your TV into the corner and putting your system at an angle to the room. I looked at your pictures and I think this would work out just fine with the rest of the layout. At the very least just try temporarily moving some speakers around and see how drastic the changes are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACDCRB25 Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sorry to hear about your job... Btw, take your time upgrading your system. A good speaker purchase can last you a lifetime + some so don't cut corners because you want something right away. You'll be mad at yourself later on down the road. If I did get towers I would probably take off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make sense of moving the equipment. If you do this, then I would highly highly recommend moving your TV into the corner and putting your system at an angle to the room. I looked at your pictures and I think this would work out just fine with the rest of the layout. At the very least just try temporarily moving some speakers around and see how drastic the changes are. So you are recommending that if I am going to upgrade my system I do it too something more major then a $300 dollar center channel? But instead get a RF35 pair of towers for $930 which I will notice its effects ALOT more due too having sound thrown from the back instead of just the front and have the bass of the larger dual woofers on the tower speakers? Also you are recommending I opt for the 35's and not the 25's? due too the mininmal price difference and the increased Bass on the towers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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