Best upgrade for the dollar

[ACDCRB25]

Hey everyone, i'm currently testing out a pair of RC25 centers and

loving them... they of course match up QUITE well with my RB25

bookshelves (fronts). I love their sound and everything but I am

wondering what would be a better deal for the dollar (opting for the

$800 RF25 fronts, RSW10 sub for a grand or so, the center and the rw8

$330) or some other audio upgrade?

Of course if I do get some new fronts the bookshelves would be set into

the rear (unless i got another pair of them), my system is quite

good too my tastes but because of my larger room size the sound isn't

bouncing off the wall as well as I think it should... I am going to do

a MCCAC config on it fairly soon too see if I notice any improvements.

Can you share any insight or suggestions too aid me?

[travisc]

I dont see a sub in your sig, so I'll assume you dont have one. Rsw-10 or if you can swing it the rsw-12 or 15 for that matter. that would be my next step, it will fill in what the RB's leave out.

I would think that the rsw-12 could be had for 1k

[ACDCRB25]

yes that is correct that I do not have a sub, do you recommend I take

the center channel back and grab a sub until i can upgrade again?

[DrWho]

What are your future plans for your system? This will pretty much

dictate what would be the most logical choice in your situation.

Right now you are strictly 2-channel with the RB-25's? Though a sub

would be a very good upgrade you run the risk of getting better mains

in the future and then needing to upgrade your sub again. So if you do

upgrade your sub, go all out and get something that you can keep in the

future, even if you upgrade to a better pair of mains (say the RF35).

At this juncture I would recommend upgrading your mains because you

will get a lot more bass than you've been getting and this will make it

easier to find a sub that blends well with your mains. You will also be

able to bump the RB-25's into surround duty, which yields surround

sound with a phantom center (just tell your reciever that you don't

have a center and it reroutes the info to the mains). So you're getting a lot of bang for the buck.

Then depending on the quality of your center image you might consider

getting an actual center channel or upgrading the subwoofer.

[ACDCRB25]

DrWho Right now I currently only OWN a 2 channel RB25 system and I am

borrowing the RC-25 Center and loving it, it allows me to take some

burden off of the mains and allows me too increase the volume without

the whole system bogging down/reaching its peak (or distort).

My plan for the system in its final stages are: RF25 Mains (35 if I

decide I can afford it), RC-25 Center, RSW10/RW12, RB25 Surrounds

(own), pioneer VSX1015TX receiver If I need more driving power.

That is what I envision my system being, if by some chance I win a

lottery or such I will finish this one up and create a flagship one and

have this one for the upstairs set []

The Question now is, would you recommend I keep the center or buy a sub

or some better mains and have the rb25 as surrounds, what do you think

would sound better in a non MCCAC'd room with dimensions of (not

including opened doors/otherr non doored rooms) 22 feet squared

roughly. The listening position is roughly 12 feet from the speaker

system and therefore 10feet from the back wall, and it is about five

feet from the side wall (where the speakers are).

So you can help me assess what would be the best accousitcal upgrade

(provide the best surround experience or pseudo-surround) I did up a

drawing of the room which can be seen below:

[travisc]

sorry for not responding earlier, I am busy as hell. DR. who will give you knowledgable sound advice, and I think he is correct as far as surrounds, you would get the low end from the mains and surrounds to boot. then you can hold out for a good sub. Its tough choice!! But if you cant afford everything at once I would just get better equipment and then wait and save.

looking at that picture I wonder if you can move that media center into the center of one of the walls?

[ACDCRB25]

I kinda took the shortcut while doing that picture, too the left of the "Media Center" is an open area, and too the right of it is a room with another door (too the right of that door yet is a fairly large closet, so that is where the media center has too be.

I will contribute more too ths thread when I get home.

[DrWho]

The reason you probably notice so much improvement with your center

channel is because you have an assymetrical layout, such that the

reflections are vastly different for each channel, thus shifting the

center image towards the right. This shifting also occurs differently

at different frequencies which is going to cause a smearing effect

(probably what you percieve as a "burdening" of the speakers). You

notice it more at louder volumes because of a likely high noise floor

in the room, which acts to partially mask these reflections until the

volume is increased (the problem also gets compounded by the increased

magintude of the other reflections as compared to the noise floor as

well). So when you add the center channel, not only are you partially

lessening the assymetrical reflections, you are also establishing a

less smeared central image (less right and left shifting as the

frequencies change).

The point here is that your speakers are by no means being "burdened"

in the sense of being overdriven, but rather you have acoustical issues

that need to be resolved. With some proper tweaking you should be able

to achieve the "unburdened" central image without even having the

center channel! - only once this is achieved will you then be able to

fully appreciate the benefits of adding the center speaker and we will

be taking your system to a totally different level without even

spending more money []

So how do we resolve it? Well ideally you could just reorganize the

layout of the room in such a way as to achieve better symmetry. You

mentioned a few doors and closets in the room that aren't in the

picture...perhaps a better drawing showing their location? The way I

understand your description, you should be totally capable of sliding

the media center over a bit to the "right" (when looking at the

picture)???

Is this media center a single piece? And where are your RB-25's

currently positioned? On some shelf in the media center? When you move

to floorstanding speakers you will probably need to shift the center to

the right to provide room for the main speakers. Would you be able to

rotate the system so that it fires out at an angle into the room? A

couple feet here and there could make a world of difference to the

sound (both with imaging and bass response).

Also, are you toe-ing in your speakers? Ideally you want to be able to

look down the throat of the horn from the main listening position. But

with your FR main, you might consider toe-ing in a bit further so as to

move the reflection point back further. In your current configuration I

would say a 45 degree toe-in regardless of the listening position so

that the 90 degree horizontal dispersion is never bouncing off that

side wall. Experimentation will of cousre be necessary, but hopefully

this is giving you an idea of what you're trying to accomplish (no side

reflections while also pointing the speaker at you). As you move the

media center to the right (looking at the pic) or even rotate the whole

center (which also implies moving the listening position), then the

need for drastic toe-in diminishes and you can achieve a better

direct-to-reflected sound ratio.

If you could draw a more elaborate diagram of your room we could draw

you up a few more placement options that you might consider (so the

better you draw, the better we can help you). Don't forget to include

all the furniture. I know rearranging the room can be a hassle (both

with moving stuff around and keeping the wife happy), but it will

definetly result in some of the best improvements you'll ever make to

your system. In fact, this is very true for every system, which is why

some of the first recommendations you are getting are regarding the

room layout.

[DrWho]

I almost forgot...

I still think you would notice a much better improvement by going with

the floorstanding mains (try to get the RF-35's if you can swing it).

You will end up with more bass, surround speakers, and because the

floorstanders will be placed on the floor (instead of in the media

center) you will probably notice a lot of improvement with the imaging.

If you still feel you get a better sound with a center channel, then by

all means scratch the surrounds and temporarily use one of the RB-25's

as a center channel.

[ACDCRB25]

VERY helpful and informative post, Tomorrow (as my family is currently

sleeping) I will run the MCCAC test and config on the room too see if I

notice a major improvement or not...

I have just taken a few pictures of the room too completly explain my

room layout, no more sketchy drawings that aren't detailed... I got the

real pictures here for yah.. lol

The pictures can be found here: http://www.kazien.com/2005_11_08/

DrWho all your questions about the media center and room locations will

be asnwered in the pictures, If I did get towers I would probably take

off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place

the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too

the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make

sense of moving the equipment.

Anyway I'm off too sleep for the night, and I'll run the MCCAC in the morning and see what the results are cheers

EDIT: I guess for now I will be holding off on the upgrades as I just

got fired from my production job at Inventronics, but still lets keep

this conversation going for future ideas on what would be the best path

for me.... I have the itch and the bug for better sound quality and

harmonics.

[ACDCRB25]

Job or not, I'm in the process of looking for a new one so I can

continue my HT upgrade plans, chance are I can find a job that pays

even better so I can upgrade both sooner and get higher end equipment

then I originally planned.

[Colin]

good answer Doc, much better than the quip I would have made...[H]

[DrWho]

Sorry to hear about your job...

Btw, take your time upgrading your system. A good speaker purchase can

last you a lifetime + some so don't cut corners because you want

something right away. You'll be mad at yourself later on down the road.

If I did get towers I would probably take

off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place

the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too

the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make

sense of moving the equipment.

If you do this, then I would highly highly recommend moving your TV

into the corner and putting your system at an angle to the room. I

looked at your pictures and I think this would work out just fine with

the rest of the layout. At the very least just try temporarily moving

some speakers around and see how drastic the changes are.

[ACDCRB25]

Sorry to hear about your job...

Btw, take your time upgrading your system. A good speaker purchase can

last you a lifetime + some so don't cut corners because you want

something right away. You'll be mad at yourself later on down the road.

If I did get towers I would probably take

off the two left and right shelves too the sides of the TV, and place

the main speakers there.. meanwhile moving all of the electronics too

the top or bottom of the television, that is the only way I can make

sense of moving the equipment.

If you do this, then I would highly highly recommend moving your TV

into the corner and putting your system at an angle to the room. I

looked at your pictures and I think this would work out just fine with

the rest of the layout. At the very least just try temporarily moving

some speakers around and see how drastic the changes are.

So you are recommending that if I am going to upgrade my system I do it

too something more major then a $300 dollar center channel? But instead

get a RF35 pair of towers for $930 which I will notice its effects ALOT

more due too having sound thrown from the back instead of just the

front and have the bass of the larger dual woofers on the tower

speakers?

Also you are recommending I opt for the 35's and not the 25's? due too

the mininmal price difference and the increased Bass on the towers?