Finalizing the implementation of the sub (part 2 I guess)

[maxg]

Well I finally got Tony round to help with the setup of the sub. God it is so much easier making changes and having someone available to hear the immediate effect than running back and forth from sub to listening position!!!!!

We heard things that we have never heard before - but entirely from Tony's mouth. Phrases such as "Well that is too much bass for me" have never been uttered in my house by Tony!

As is ever the case - I was running the sub way too hot. I guess it is that desire to use something you have that is new - even in cases where it really is neither neccessary nor beneficial.

To be honest I had already noted this. I was of the opinion that I would need to change settings for different types of music as the setup was fine for classical but booming with Rock.

As it turns out - having played with phase and volume - the huge improvement was wrought from a simple reduction of the xover point from 80 to 60 Hz. As soon as we did that the whole sound came together as one and played just as well with the helicoptors in "The Wall" as it did with Gershwin's Cuban Symphony.

Tony's summary was - "this is the best I have ever heard your system play," which is always nice to hear - and he agreed with me that this is the first sub we ever came across that shows a clean pair of heels to the REL musically speaking.

As long as I can resist the desire to turn the bass up - because I can - I have music aplenty.

Kelly asked me in a previous thread a simple question - why?

I answered it there but I will repeat the answer - and add to it a tad, here:

If you can integrate a sub properly with your system - and especially if you have limited bass response from your main speakers (Cornwalls and the like probably do not need to apply) the effects of the addition are:

1. Obviously greater bass response - all the way down to 20 Hz but more importantly way flatter than you might otherwise expect to get, down to 32 Hz (pipe organ territory).

2. Increase in image size and mass. It all just feels that much more real. Some instruments just seem to come alive with guitars and bass guitars being the most apparent examples.

3. More apparent clarity throughout the frequency range. I do not know why this should be. It may be an artifact of building the sound on top of a solid bass foundation.

Of course there is the perennial question as to whether it is better to have a genuinely full range speaker or a sub/speaker combo. I think there are swings and roundabouts here. Setup is certainly more complicated with the sub - but the chances of optimizing said setup for your listening room are therefore that much higher.

The only issue is - this is not the cheap way of doing things it might initially appear. Subs are very variable in how well they play music. Almost all will boom sufficiently to cover the needs of a movie bomb blast but few it seems can actually play. Those that do are not cheap. Adding the cost of the smaller speakers and the sub will rarely come in much under the cost of a full range set of speakers.

Tony couldn't quite bring himself to say that my setup's bass is now a match for his 802's - but he did say that if I had 2 of them it would be better bass than he currently has - which, from him, is much the same thing.

One day - who knows - I might just grab another one of these to complete things. As it is, again heard for the first time from Tony - there is nothing left to do to my system. He has been pushing me to change my speakers, now, with the sub (and admittedly a change woofer on the units as well) he thinks there is no point.

All in all - a result.

[dubai2000]

Max,

congrats on 'finalizing' you sub setup......though every now and then

you might discover an itching to see/hear if it cannot get a tiny bit

better....[].

Anyway, I guess it's quite common to run a sub too hot

at first - after all one usually doesn't have too much experience with

this kind of bass performance in one's listening room.

You wrote that Corwall etc. owner do not need to apply. Well, I don't

know about Corns (in terms of tone), but I for one wouldn't even want

to listen to my Khorns without sub [].

I agree with the benefits you've mentioned once a sub is dialed in

properly, but still there remains the fact that some LPs/CDs are more

bass shy than others......but that might lead to yet another audio

toy.....

But for now enjoy the tunes,

Wolfram

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

I also found that the crossover point from the main speakers had an important influence on how well the subwoofer blended with the rest of the system. We initially ran it at 80Hz, which just tended to call to much attention to itself. This wasn't because the gain was set too high, but seemingly (I don't know for sure) due to the fact that it was sort of 'jumping in,' as it were, on the response from the Klipschorns -- kind of like one person not letting another finish his/her own sentence. Granted that analogy might be kind of a stretch, but it's just a way to describe the impression we got from setting the crossover point a little too high.

What I found works best in our room is using the Lexicon to cross from the mains to the sub in the 40Hz region. This means that the Klipschorns are really providing the bulk of the response to that point, and then the sub rolls in in a way that to me seems really quite natural and seamless. As you also found, it was easy to turn the gain up too high, resulting in unquestionably strong bass -- huge bass, in fact -- but also pretty unrealistic.

Except for movie watching, when this thing really shows what it's capable of, the SVS is certainly not getting overworked with music. When it does kick in for music-only listening, it does so in a way that, as you indicated as well, sets up a sonic foundation that is at once very enjoyable and complete -- not to mention just lots of fun!

Erik

[maxg]

Wolfram,

No doubt about it - lots of tweaking ahead - but the main work is now done and from now on in we are just talking minor adjustments.

Erik,

40 Hz sounds like a very reasonable point to me when Khorns are the mains. I was just surprised that with my speakers (with 8 inch woofers) the point would be as low as 60 Hz.

Once the X-over point has been established there is a fair range of possible volume settings that can be used without being obviously right or wrong - depending on the source material. I think the aim is to get it to a level that works with as varied a source as possible. I would imagine this is more difficult to do when combining both movies and music as the demands are somewhat different.

Right now I can cross genres of music without undue problem (although some recordings have hot bass settings which is a problem with the sub - the first Tracey Chapman album is unplayable on vinyl for some reason to do with the recording when the sub is on - of course that is easily solved!).

I havent tried a movie yet - we tend to watch movies (rarely) through the TV speakers anyway - even though it is a switch flick away on the system.

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

"I havent tried a movie yet - we tend to watch movies (rarely) through the TV speakers anyway - even though it is a switch flick away on the system. "

Same with us. Most of the movies we had been watching (seemingly) had very little in the way of sound effects. At least that's what I thought until we got this surround situation going.

Do try a movie sometime, because it can really create a completely different experience. Most of what we had been watching relied to a much greater extent on the story as a sort of end in itself, but some DVDs we have recently either rented or bought are really astonishingly good for soundtracks as well as video. To describe the sound as 'stunning' and hugely involving is not at all inaccurate.

I know you haven't ventured into surround sound, Max, and it is surely probably not for every one. Our processor, which has a very good sounding linetage preamp built into it, can make it very easy to listen to two channel stereo, or surround sound as desired. Again, this may not at all be something you're interested in. I just mention it as something that can be done. There are always compromises, as we've often talked about in the past, but this new subwoofer has really made an important change for the better for us, for both music and movie watching. For movies, the dynamic contrasts in some soundtracks are really amazing.

Erik

[maxg]

"I know you haven't ventured into surround sound, Max, and it is surely probably not for every one."

Actually I have - or had.

When I first came to this forum I had a surround sound setup and SACD/DVD. It is from that that I went backwards (so to speak) into 2 channel sound and thence to vinyl.

As it happens I own some 70 SACD's (15 of which are multi-channel) and about 200 DVD's - most of which have a surround sound track (or 2).

Were my habits not so biased towards classical music on vinyl I would probably built a surround sound system. I just find that the aforementioned bias doesn't leave a whole lot of time for much else.

I should also mention that whilst I can listen to a given piece of music a thousand times and never bore of it the same cannot be said for a movie. I think I have seen a handful of movies more than twice in my entire life and despite building a library of what I regarded as classic movies to own the desire to watch them never seems to materialize.

It happens also, that we have satelitte TV in addition to all the other sources. There are about 10 or 15 movie channels I think - again few are ever watched (Cartoon network dominates for obvious reasons - along with another cartoon channel called Boomerang). I might try watching a football match over the system as some point (soccer that is). Probably get a bit more of the crowd if nothing else.

[Erik Mandaville]

"Were my habits not so biased towards classical music on vinyl I would probably built a surround sound system. I just find that the aforementioned bias doesn't leave a whole lot of time for much else.

I should also mention that whilst I can listen to a given piece of music a thousand times and never bore of it the same cannot be said for a movie. I think I have seen a handful of movies more than twice in my entire life and despite building a library of what I regarded as classic movies to own the desire to watch them never seems to materialize."

I understand that. I'm glad you're enjoying the new addition to your system.

Erik

[dubai2000]

I am not much of a TV person myself and my DVD collection is certainly

small, but even TV sound profits from being run through my stereo

setup......and that might include a soccer match (World Cup - here we

come []).

One of the variables I keep on fiddling with is indeed the 'right'

crossover point. For quite some time I also tried 40-50Hz, but on some

recordings it felt/sounded like I was having a hole between Khorns and

sub. But then bass performance is also room related so what might work

in one listening space might not be ideal in the next. Still, this

thread will make try a few different settings (again [] []) tomorrow

once the neighbours are off to work.

Wolfram

[Erik Mandaville]

Wolfram:

Do you have your SVS in a corner -- back or front? Not that this has anything to do with that possible gap you might have heard at the lower crossover points; I'm just wondering where you found the best location to be. Ours isn't in a corner right now. I would need to reposition one of the surround Heresies to do that, as well as make a longer IC for the longer distance. I will do that soon, just to see what I hear (or rather hear what I hear -- or something like that)

Erik

[dubai2000]

Erik,

no corner setting for me. It's a bit like Max's place - there is only

ONE spot for the sub - yes, directly left of the right Khorn. Anyway,

it works for me.......perhaps because I have not had choice of a

differnt position [].

Wolfram

A pic says more than a thousand words - even though it's a bit dated []:

[Erik Mandaville]

Wolfram:

Good picture, and I remember that setup. Thanks for taking the time to post that. I have ours in the middle of the short wall on one side, but would like to try it in the corners, if possible. Still, what we are hearing now is still pretty good!

Erik

[maxg]

I am obviously wrong but I thought SVS subs were all cylindrical unpowered affairs. Seems both Erik and Wolfram have "normally" shaped and presumably powered subs.

Erik,

Tried watching a football match last night through the system with the volume at a decent level. Got engrossed in the match (Manchester United Vs. Arsenal - a big one in the UK) and totally forgot it was playing by the second half.

Not quite the difference I was expecting - probably need to pump up the volume of the sub for non-music as I originally surmized.

Will try a film next time I watch one - presumably I should pick one that is big on sound effects - I think I Robot is on the satelitte channels at the moment so I will give it a whirl if I catch it.

What does work very well, however, is another channel we have called Mezzo. It is a french channel that plays classical, jazz and opera all day. Caught part of a Verdi opera (Il Trovadore) - nice. The video adds and loses something. It is a handy reference - but it is hard not to close my eyes during some of the better arias (something I often do when listening to vinyl).

At the end of playing with the video I switched over to vinyl and listened to Reiner's Scheherezade. No comparison - sonic nirvana - staggeringly wonderous and the bass......the last movement was just incredible. I aint never heard it like that before.

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

Correct these are powered subwoofers.

I don't think we have yet watched TV with the subwoofer or even the rest of the system playing. It's used for music and an occasional movie or music DVD on the weekends almost exclusively. My daily or worknight listening is with the Moth 2A3 amp and headphones -- all two channel stereo, too!

I was mainly suggesting trying it with a more recent film, where there are soundtracks with extremely low frequency information. Compared to watching TV, you WILL know when this stuff arrives.

Erik