Pop Quiz

[pauln]

It's still not clear to me, though, how summing L+R by using a mono switch on the preamp/amp will bring out the lateral stylus motion signal but cancels out the vertical signal.

Larry

===========

The horizontal and vertical components of the stylus motion are transduced to electrical signals in each coil. These signals in the coils are a representation of the left and right channel signals (as in, "It's only a model.") of the master tape. There is no horizontal or vertical signal any more than there is a diagonal and diagonal + 90 degrees signal; just two signals that may share a lot in common in the time and frequency domains. If you are not sure, ask yourself, (did these horizontal and vertical signals reside in the master tape?).The concept of horizontal and vertical signal components is a derivation from vector components, but these don't "exist" prior to specifying the axis of orthagonality and measurement methodology in advance of resolving the vector components. There is the suggestion that they might exit because the particular definition and measurement used to define them is analogous to the geometry of the stylus movement in the groove, but these illusary H and V signals do not get created from the transduction process. They are a figment.

[colterphoto1]

So this site

http://www.aw-wrdsmth.com/scuttlebutt/orchestra.html

is wrong in stating

'The piccolo is the flute's younger sister and is played the same as the

flute. The piccolo is much shorter than the flute, though, and has a

much higher sound. In fact, the piccolo is the loudest and highest

instrument in the orchestra. Usually there is only one piccolo player

in an orchestra.'

[popbumper]

As a clarinetest for the last 12 years, and some 22 years before a hiatus between the periods, I also wanted to add that the clarinet, if mic'd and viewed on an oscilloscope, puts out what would be recognized as a very nice square wave - NOT a sine wave.....for those who did not know.

Chris

[D-MAN]

The DRUMS are the loudest - note that there are many horns in a "section", but only a couple of percussionists/DRUMs are needed per orchestra!

DM

[LarryC]

Michael, most of that statement is objectively true. However, I don't know and can't tell what the basis is about it being the loudest. It may simply be a subjective judgement because it's so easily heard in full orchestral passages.

After all, the piccolo is certainly piercing and easily heard over the rest of the orchestra. It's probably like the triangle, which we discussed in another thread -- its very high overtones cut right through the rest of the orchestra even though it's not as loud as many other instruments.

FWIW, we've all seen the Boston Pops orchestra play "Stars and Stripes Forever" with 3 piccolos. That many are probably used to (1) assure that they carry over all the brass in the last, fortissimo stanza, and (2) give a bigger-bodied, massed sound that solo instruments cannot.

[DrWho]

I guess it depends on how one defines loudness...

a measurement of acoustical energy

or

a measurement of the relative percieved loudness (I forget the units of measure for this...phones?)

I'd have to say that the drums have both though...a snare drum can easily exceed 136dB at 1m. And a crazy drummer on a kit can exceed 136dB continuous too (yes, I've measured that before too....just to show the guy how stupid he was, lol). But Tympani gets fricken loud too...I forget the real name of the song, but everyone knows it as 2001 Space Odyssey...the tympani at the end of the intro is incredible fun (especially when you look down on the orchestra to see some really old flabby armed dude wailing away) []

I'm not sure if you can include the human voice as an instrument, but I've measured opera singers exceeding 120dB at about 40m away. Talk about insane.

[colterphoto1]

Michael, most of that statement is objectively true. However, I don't know and can't tell what the basis is about it being the loudest. It may simply be a subjective judgement because it's so easily heard in full orchestral passages.

After all, the piccolo is certainly piercing and easily heard over the rest of the orchestra. It's probably like the triangle, which we discussed in another thread -- its very high overtones cut right through the rest of the orchestra even though it's not as loud as many other instruments.

FWIW, we've all seen the Boston Pops orchestra play "Stars and Stripes Forever" with 3 piccolos. That many are probably used to (1) assure that they carry over all the brass in the last, fortissimo stanza, and (2) give a bigger-bodied, massed sound that solo instruments cannot.

I'll never forget that experience at the Milwaukee Ballet. That triangle had me glancing back at the soundboard to 'evil eye' the engineer for having feedback in his system. Of course I later learned that there was no one in the booth that night and that the orchestra carries just fine throughout an acoustically perfect hall! But that triangle was just piercing- cut through all the other instruments very cleanly. I can't imagine three piccolos together- does each additional instrument in the family add like 3 db to the sound?

Michael

[LarryC]

three piccolos together- does each additional instrument in the family add like 3 db to the sound?

Logically yes, although multiples don't seem to add that much. Accidental phase cancellations might reduce that some; a prominent 20th-century composer, can't remember who, said that 4 horns in unison can partially cancel each other out when heard close-up.

Three of something in unison has a different, more massed instrument sound than one in solo. Like the difference between a solo violin and an entire violin section, or several saxes vs. a solo in Glenn Miller. It might be that effect as much as any in Stars and Stripes Forever. Remember to watch it from Boston or DC next July 4!

[pmsummer]

I've got a new answer for the loudest "instrument". ;-)

[colterphoto1]

three piccolos together- does each additional instrument in the family add like 3 db to the sound?

Logically yes, although multiples don't seem to add that much. Accidental phase cancellations might reduce that some; a prominent 20th-century composer, can't remember who, said that 4 horns in unison can partially cancel each other out when heard close-up.

Three of something in unison has a different, more massed instrument sound than one in solo. Like the difference between a solo violin and an entire violin section, or several saxes vs. a solo in Glenn Miller. It might be that effect as much as any in Stars and Stripes Forever. Remember to watch it from Boston or DC next July 4!

To continue this line of thought (sorry for the side-jack), Larry, that is why many rock bands have multiple guitarists or multi track several guitar parts when recording. The same guitarist and rig will have slight timing and vibrato/ pitch bend differences when double tracking the same part. Many times guitars with very different tonal signatures, such as Les Paul and Stratocaster will be used to 'thicken' the sound. So we rockers have learned from the classics once again!

Michael