An interesting blind test

[JBryan]

On the topic of blind tests. Although I think that when humans are involved. there are simply too many variables to conduct a true audio test (blind or otherwise) with results that are verifiable and repeatable, I have experimented a few times.

On one occasion, a couple of friends, my wife and myself were listening to some tunes and the subject of CD vs vinyl was discussed and we decided to do a test. Also, my wife wanted to include her iPod in the test so I sent everyone upstairs to refresh their drinks. I found a album that I had on all 3 formats (Muddy Waters' 'Folk Singer') and set the gear up with a SPL meter. Interesting enough, each format sounds quite different at the same SPL level. When I was ready, everyone came down, I cued up the 1st track as best I could and each listener took a turn at the selector switch randomly selecting sources. I was the only one who knew which source was hooked up to which input so I sat with my back to the equipment.

Within 3 tracks, everyone had concluded that the input A was the better selection, followed by 3 votes for input C and one vote for B although there was more discussion on how close these 2 were. The results were a unanimous vote for vinyl and a essential split between the CD and iPod with an slight edge to the CD.

Of course, there is no reason to generalize the conclusions...for one thing, I spent 3 times on the vinyl setup than on the CDP which retailed for over 5 times what the iPod cost. If anything, it only suggests where I place my priorities and how I want my system to sound.

[DrWho]

On the topic of blind tests. Although I think that

when humans are involved. there are simply too many variables to

conduct a true audio test (blind or otherwise) with results that are

verifiable and repeatable, I have experimented a few times.

On one occasion, a couple of friends, my wife and myself were listening

to some tunes and the subject of CD vs vinyl was discussed and we

decided to do a test. Also, my wife wanted to include her iPod in the

test so I sent everyone upstairs to refresh their drinks. I found a

album that I had on all 3 formats (Muddy Waters' 'Folk Singer') and set

the gear up with a SPL meter. Interesting enough, each format sounds

quite different at the same SPL level. When I was ready, everyone came

down, I cued up the 1st track as best I could and each listener took a

turn at the selector switch randomly selecting sources. I was the only

one who knew which source was hooked up to which input so I sat with my

back to the equipment. Within 3 tracks, everyone had concluded that the

input A was the better selection, followed by 3 votes for input C and

one vote for B although there was more discussion on how close these 2

were. The results were a unanimous vote for vinyl and a essential split

between the CD and iPod with an slight edge to the CD. Of course, there

is no reason to generalize the conclusions...for one thing, I spent 3

times on the vinyl setup than on the CDP which retailed for over 5

times what the iPod cost. If anything, it only suggests where I place

my priorities and how I want my system to sound.

You should try conducting the same test where all 3 "inputs" are the same thing...you'll probably get similar results.

Btw, there is a million dollar prize for anyone that can detect an

AD/DA stage wired inline...I'm yet to hear of anyone that has passed a

test to prove it, but if such people exist then I suggest they go take

up the challenge.

[maxg]

"Btw, there is a million dollar prize for anyone that can detect an AD/DA stage wired inline...I'm yet to hear of anyone that has passed a test to prove it, but if such people exist then I suggest they go take up the challenge."

Any AD/DA? Any output stage? Can't imagine that is not discernable - although there should be some that are not.

Even if it is totally non-discernable it is hardly the same thing as comparing a recorded CD to an original vinyl record. There are a variety of other issues at play - Jitter, for example.

[DrWho]

"Btw, there is a million dollar prize for anyone

that can detect an AD/DA stage wired inline...I'm yet to hear of anyone

that has passed a test to prove it, but if such people exist then I

suggest they go take up the challenge."

Any AD/DA? Any output stage? Can't imagine that is not discernable - although there should be some that are not.

Even

if it is totally non-discernable it is hardly the same thing as

comparing a recorded CD to an original vinyl record. There are a

variety of other issues at play - Jitter, for example.

Well it would be silly to compare poor performers in both

categories...surely you wouldn't want me to compare a $50 TT to a $5000

studio grade AD/DA?

Btw, all the issues you can think of associated with CDs (ie jitter)

will be present inside the buffer of the inline AD/DA...in fact, you

can think of a CD as a very large buffer because that which gets read

into the buffer feeding the DA stage is going to be identical to the

buffer that was feeding the CD writing stage...

Nobody argues that reel to reel sounds better than LP...I would really

love to bring some of you guys into the studio so that you can AB the

differences against the original sound...and then point out how easy it

is to adjust the recording style to minimize the limitations of the

medium. It would be even cooler be able to rip LP's live and then

compare them to the others inside the studio as well, but that isn't as

feasable.

[oldbuckster]

TIC,TIC,POP, your your your probably right right, TIC,POP,right.

From that comment I am guessing you have never heard a properly cleaned LP. The ticks and pops come mostly from dirt, mold and static. You clean them once, if they are new or used, and unless you handle them like a lunk head they are dead quiet.

When I started collecting records they were Mono. I owned vinyl for over 30 years. I know what a clean disc sounds like TIC,POP,POP. Handle them like a lunk head, Please. Don't even begin to lecture me about what you feel is best,Dead Quite, When's that, when they're in the Albumn cover? I guess,guess, guess,Tic, Tic,Pop,guess, You're right,right ,Pop,Tic, Pop!!!!

[maxg]

TIC,TIC,POP, your your your probably right right, TIC,POP,right.

From that comment I am guessing you have never heard a properly cleaned LP. The ticks and pops come mostly from dirt, mold and static. You clean them once, if they are new or used, and unless you handle them like a lunk head they are dead quiet.

When I started collecting records they were Mono. I owned vinyl for over 30 years. I know what a clean disc sounds like TIC,POP,POP. Handle them like a lunk head, Please. Don't even begin to lecture me about what you feel is best,Dead Quite, When's that, when they're in the Albumn cover? I guess,guess, guess,Tic, Tic,Pop,guess, You're right,right ,Pop,Tic, Pop!!!!

Interesting as all of that is none of it implies automatically that you:

1. Know how to setup a TT, match an arm to a cartridge or even level a table.

2. Owned a decent, well matched setup.

3. Know how to clean a record - or actually know what a clean record sounds like (hint - just because it is new does not mean it is clean).

4. Know how to minimize static.

5. Know how to handle or treat a record.

6. Know how to store a record.

In fact your response indicates very much the opposite of most of the above. Records VERY rarely stick - certainly less often IME than CD's corrupt. Yes - many records have tics and pops somewhere in the playing surface but many do not and of those that do we are often talking one or two per side - which may ruin the whole musial experience for some but not others.

Ultimately - none of this is a lecture and you should not take it as one. This forum is about people attempting to explain their preferences. There are reasons as to why most of the really high end, no expense spared, systems out there incorporate a TT as their primary source - and it is not merely bragging rights however it may appear to a contented CD user.

You like CD's - buy CD's - no problem for anyone. You want to share why - go right ahead but do not assume that your listening experiences are the same as those of others.

[oldbuckster]

TIC,TIC,POP, your your your probably right right, TIC,POP,right.

From that comment I am guessing you have never heard a properly cleaned LP. The ticks and pops come mostly from dirt, mold and static. You clean them once, if they are new or used, and unless you handle them like a lunk head they are dead quiet.

When I started collecting records they were Mono. I owned vinyl for over 30 years. I know what a clean disc sounds like TIC,POP,POP. Handle them like a lunk head, Please. Don't even begin to lecture me about what you feel is best,Dead Quite, When's that, when they're in the Albumn cover? I guess,guess, guess,Tic, Tic,Pop,guess, You're right,right ,Pop,Tic, Pop!!!!

Interesting as all of that is none of it implies automatically that you:

1. Know how to setup a TT, match an arm to a cartridge or even level a table.

2. Owned a decent, well matched setup.

3. Know how to clean a record - or actually know what a clean record sounds like (hint - just because it is new does not mean it is clean).

4. Know how to minimize static.

5. Know how to handle or treat a record.

6. Know how to store a record.

In fact your response indicates very much the opposite of most of the above. Records VERY rarely stick - certainly less often IME than CD's corrupt. Yes - many records have tics and pops somewhere in the playing surface but many do not and of those that do we are often talking one or two per side - which may ruin the whole musial experience for some but not others.

Ultimately - none of this is a lecture and you should not take it as one. This forum is about people attempting to explain their preferences. There are reasons as to why most of the really high end, no expense spared, systems out there incorporate a TT as their primary source - and it is not merely bragging rights however it may appear to a contented CD user.

You like CD's - buy CD's - no problem for anyone. You want to share why - go right ahead but do not assume that your listening experiences are the same as those of others.

What planet are you from? When I started collecting,Records,and turntables was all there was. You had NO CHOICE, turntables or AM radio. I stopped buying vinyl ealry 1990's, and when I made that choice, the quality of the LP was at rock bottom, and hard to find, unless you wanted to pay over $20. for high grade LP'S. I take issue with your six points because, I can answer YES to everyone. My original post was suppose to be a little humorous, but I guess you guys would rather pick it apart, and tell me to stay out of it,than see the humor in it. TIC,POP,POP,Your right,right,right ooops!

[sfogg]

Max,

"There are a variety of other issues at play - Jitter, for example. "

First... jitter is hardly the issue many make it out to be. A lot of people complain about it but few even understand what it is or what effect is has on audio playback when it gets really bad.

Second... *any* time you feed a DAC there is potential for jitter. A DAC is fed the same way no matter if the source is a CD or if it is an A/D. Jitter is nothing more then timing differences between the 3 clocks and the data line that feeds a DAC. The only place jitter is important is at the DAC (or to a DSP if so used).

A CD can deliver bit perfect from a 16/44.1kHz source. So digitizing an analog signal (like vinyl) at 16/44.1kHz is for all intents and purposes the same thing as having a CD in the middle. The A/D-D/A chain just makes comparisons dramatically easier since the listener only needs to que up any vinyl they want and then can switch back and forth between straight through and going through the digitizing stage.

Shawn

[maxg]

An inline AD/DA converter has 3 clocks on it? I had no idea. I know a CD DAC utilizes 3 clocks in total (usually) but I did not think they were all in the AD/DA converter and hence the expectation that jitter would not be a problem here.

[sfogg]

"An inline AD/DA converter has 3 clocks on"

Yes, due to the way the digital data is transmitted from the A/D and to the D/A. To the D/A there is no difference that it is being fed from an A/D or from a CD. The three clocks are:

You have the master clock. This will run at some multiple of the sampling frequency. 128xFs, 256xFs,512xFs among others.

You have the bit block. This runs at 64x the sampling frequency. This literally transitions for each and every possible bit change in the 'word' on the data line. The data is transmitted in 32 bit 'words' per channel in a serial fashion. The reason the bit block is 64xFs is 32bits per word but two words per sample (stereo).

You have the L/R word clock. This will run at the sampling frequency. This determines which 'word' is for the left or the right channel. It will be high for one channel and low for the other.

This document:

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/appNote/an22.pdf

spells it out pretty well if you are interested in learning more about it.

Shawn