LOOKING FOR A SUB

[hardiride69]

I'm looking for a home theater sub, but I also listen to alot of music whether it be in 6.1 sacd, or 2 channel audio. I listen to people like Bob Segar, Eric Clapton , country , rock , r&b. I am looking to build a home theater room/stereo room right now. The room size is 11' w x 23' l x 7.5' h.

Here is where I'm at so far:

Panasonic LCD projector, 106" fixed screen, Yamaha XRV 3200 6.1 receiver, Yamaha sacd 750 dvd player, Carver TFM 35 thx amp running KLF 20's in the front; Carver TFM 35 thx amp running KLF 20's in the rear, KLF C7s front and rear centers and two Rockford Fosgate 12's subs that are great for music listening but lacking in home theather use.

Here is what I have been looking at:

Paradigm Servo-15 / VELODYNE DLS 5000R / Velodyne SPL-1500/ Velodyne Servo GHS 15 /18 / Defintive Technology PF18TLor pf 15/ Sunfire True Subwoofer / Sunfire Dominator D-12 / klipsch rw15 /rw12

I'm looking for a sub in the $1600 or lower range that is going to be able to keep up with my KLF 20's as I am running about 250 watts to them and I do play them loud . Also at a later time I will be adding another sub if needed.

Any advice or comments that you have are also appreciated.

Thanks

[Jay481985]

wait for the new Klipsch RT-12D to come out and also check out the svs pb-12 plus

[tpg]

I was in the exact same boat as you until Friday.

I am running KLF-30 mains, and though I only have about 50 watts to them (but, in truth, they usually only see about 1/2 watt at the most), they are still very sensitive and it is difficult to find a sub that can keep up with them without fizzling out.

My sub list was virtually the same as yours- I was looking at either a cheaper sub around $800 or going "all out" and picking up a sub around the $2000-ish range. I was looking at the Velodyne DLS5000, SPL1500R, HGS-15X, Paradigm Servo-15 v.2, Sunfire True Sub Signature, Sunfire Dominator D12, Klipsch RW-12, Klipsch RSW-12 or RSW-15, many of the SVS offerings, and probably some others I am forgetting...

Because of my poor location, I was unable to hear any of these (although I heard the Velodyne DLS4000, which sounded decent, but not a major step up from what I currently had). I have Paradigm, Klipsch, Sunfire, B&W, and Velodyne dealers in the area, but no one stocks much of anything (except really low-end models). Special orders are non-returnable.

In the end, I went to the last dealer on my list and they just happened to have the new JL Fathom and Gotham subs. I picked up a Fathom F112 for a little more than I had hoped, but I feel good about it nonetheless. My second choice would probably be the Paradigm Servo-15 v.2 because it seems to be a little beefier than the Velodyne HGS-15X and is the same price. Or you could wait for the flagship Klipsch sub... But, if you are like me, I wanted it NOW and didn't think clearly......

[Jay481985]

how are the new jl subs?

[DrWho]

Is your screen right up against the wall, or is there a false wall there?

What are your thoughts about installing a fake wall that extends out 2

feet or so? You could get real fancy with this and have an inset screen

with the fancy curtains, flushmounted mains, equipment racks, media

storage, etc etc...but most importantly, this opens up the option for

an "infinite baffle" subwoofer underneathe the screen.

And the modal response of your room would immensly improve by making it

2 or 3 feet shorter. Attached is your room, 2 feet shorter and 3 feet

shorter. (The goal is to have the hashes as evenly spread out with as

little overlap as possible...mostly at frequencies below 150Hz).

If that's a bit overboard you still have the option of building your own custom sub. Perhaps something using this sub

http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm

and this amp:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-808

The 15" version needs a 6 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 20Hz and will do

130dB with an F3 of 16Hz. The 12" version needs a 3 cubic foot cabinet

tuned to 20Hz and will do 124dB. Btw, this was calculated using the

actual room gain of your room (as was derived from your dimensions). Go

to two subs and you can add 6dB to all those numbers. So a dual 12"

setup would be very similar to the Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofers and

come in for a bit cheaper depending on what kind of cabinet you go

with. A single 15" system will be very similar to the Ultra2 subs, but

when you move to two of them you're now gonna be on top.

Same amp, but 4 of these drivers would cost the same and give you the

same performance in a 40 cubic foot cabinet (thus the false wall

recommendation):

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455&CFID=100952&CFTOKEN=83293561

If you went with a different amp that didn't roll off below 18Hz, then

you could get a lot more performance - like extension below 10Hz.

Anyways, if you don't wanna go custom and want to get something from

your list, then I would suggest picking the sub with the biggest driver

and the biggest cabinet. The bigger the cabinet gets, the less

compromises that need to be made (hoffman's iron law).

[kramskoi]

I'm looking for a home theater sub, but I also listen to alot of music whether it be in 6.1 sacd, or 2 channel audio. I listen to people like Bob Segar, Eric Clapton , country , rock , r&b. I am looking to build a home theater room/stereo room right now. The room size is 11' w x 23' l x 7.5' h.

Here is where I'm at so far:

Panasonic LCD projector, 106" fixed screen, Yamaha XRV 3200 6.1 receiver, Yamaha sacd 750 dvd player, Carver TFM 35 thx amp running KLF 20's in the front; Carver TFM 35 thx amp running KLF 20's in the rear, KLF C7s front and rear centers and two Rockford Fosgate 12's subs that are great for music listening but lacking in home theather use.

Here is what I have been looking at:

Paradigm Servo-15 / VELODYNE DLS 5000R / Velodyne SPL-1500/ Velodyne Servo GHS 15 /18 / Defintive Technology PF18TLor pf 15/ Sunfire True Subwoofer / Sunfire Dominator D-12 / klipsch rw15 /rw12

I'm looking for a sub in the $1600 or lower range that is going to be able to keep up with my KLF 20's as I am running about 250 watts to them and I do play them loud . Also at a later time I will be adding another sub if needed.

Any advice or comments that you have are also appreciated.

Thanks

what is the deal with 12" fosgate pair??? Vented, PR or sealed?

Just off my head and from your list, i would take a closer look at the paradigm servo15.V2...in a word, very capable. Your room is only 100 cu. ft. larger than mine and i assure you that a 15" sub of the paradigm's character will hit pretty hard. Using a sealed Tumult 15" as a reference, you can expect 105-115dB at pretty clean levels.

[kramskoi]

The 15" version needs a 6 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 20Hz and will do 130dB with an F3 of 16Hz. The 12" version needs a 3 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 20Hz and will do 124dB. Btw, this was calculated using the actual room gain of your room (as was derived from your dimensions). Go to two subs and you can add 6dB to all those numbers. So a dual 12" setup would be very similar to the Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofers and come in for a bit cheaper depending on what kind of cabinet you go with. A single 15" system will be very similar to the Ultra2 subs, but when you move to two of them you're now gonna be on top.

Two TC-15" in a low Q, sealed 5 cu.ft. ain't bad either...125 dB @ 80 Hz(1/2 sp-1m, 2.4 kW) and about 116 dB @ 20 Hz (1/2sp/1m)...can't wait to hear the finished results with room gain...both of the drivers are on the way and the plans are complete...all that's left is the box to be built.

[colterphoto1]

gotta chime in here and give backup to Doc's words. That 11x23 is TROUBLE. Get the room squared away or you'll possibly in bass hell.

[DrWho]

gotta chime in here and give backup to Doc's

words. That 11x23 is TROUBLE. Get the room squared away or you'll

possibly in bass hell.

Ya, I shoulda stressed that point a bit more...

Reading the modal output can be a bit confusing, but what we see on the

first plot is nastiness at 50Hz, 74Hz, 100Hz and 150Hz. By moving to

the 2 foot wall you pretty much have the same 50Hz and 74Hz problems

but a very clean response above 100Hz. And then the 3 foot reduction

has the best response with a very even distribution.

With subwoofers the room dictates the majority of how things sound, and

right now the room is a severe limiting factor. If you don't wanna go

the route of fake walls and all that, then I would highly recommend

looking into some acoustical treatment. A couple of bass traps can go a

long way in improving output.

[CAS]

Here is what I have been looking at:

Paradigm Servo-15 / VELODYNE DLS 5000R / Velodyne SPL-1500/ Velodyne Servo GHS 15 /18 / Defintive Technology PF18TLor pf 15/ Sunfire True Subwoofer / Sunfire Dominator D-12 / klipsch rw15 /rw12

I'm looking for a sub in the $1600 or lower range that is going to be able to keep up with my KLF 20's as I am running about 250 watts to them and I do play them loud . Also at a later time I will be adding another sub if needed.

WIth that kind of dedication to your sound and video system, I would shy away from the RSW's unless you get multiples. I would also shy away a bit from the Sunfires; they're great subs but their primarily for space saving. Add some enclosure space and you'll gain some output at the same time saving money. I didn't hear that you had a space problem.

For that price, until the new Klipsch line comes out, I'd look at the Velodynes, Paradigms and SVS's.

[tpg]

how are the new jl subs?

I will start a new thread for comments on this so as not to hijack this one...

[hardiride69]

sorry drwho i havent been on and able to look at the responces but your did catch my eye right now i have an open area that yes i could build a false wall and i have thought about it for my sub , amps, reciver ect. i also heard about this do you know any thing about this http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm thanks everyone ill study more

[hardiride69]

the rockfords are in a 2.5 ct ported box and about 600 watts on them like i said they are great for music just lacking in the theather mode i have built tables for them to sit under so ill keep them with the system if they blend in well p.s i have tried bifferent, ports, box sizes as they are now seams to sound the best with music up against my 20's

[hardiride69]

i like the thoughts of this drwho

What are your thoughts about installing a fake wall that extends out 2 feet or so? You could get real fancy with this and have an inset screen with the fancy curtains, flushmounted mains, equipment racks, media storage, etc etc...but most importantly, this opens up the option for an "infinite baffle" subwoofer underneathe the screen.

or this

Same amp, but 4 of these drivers would cost the same and give you the same performance in a 40 cubic foot cabinet (thus the false wall recommendation):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455&CFID=100952&CFTOKEN=83293561
If you went with a different amp that didn't roll off below 18Hz, then you could get a lot more performance - like extension below 10Hz.

[DrWho]

The Danley DTS-20 fricken rocks, and with such a small exit mouth, you could totally hide it behind the wall. Heck, why not throw three behind the wall? Talk about crazy insane overkill.

Btw, those measurements are taken in 1/2 space (outdoors) which means they will have even more crazy extension.

As far as subs, you could also go with the TC Sounds drivers in a sealed cabinet, say around 5-8 cubic feet and achieve the same kind of output as the dayton's, but a bit more linear.

Really the sky is the limit and you'll ultimately be limited by your budget and the actual constraints of your construction.

[hardiride69]

on the Danley DTS-20 is that a powers system and what kinda output could i get out of that or like you were talking the tc . i would like to go with two of them and yes i have the room but not sure on amplication i should uses