DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 So with the latest addition to my HT, the Denon AVR-3300, I had a few extra recievers laying around (a denon AVR-87 and a Sherwood RD-6108). My good friend Brandon bought the Promedia Ultra 5.1 system by my recommendation a few years ago and has been a huge Klipsch fan ever since. He was looking to consolidate his A/V situation (specifically wanting surround sound for his gaming) and so we embarked in a journey to integrate the AVR-87 reciever into his setup. I must confess that I fully expected this to be a drop-in installation. I even brought over my favorite game, Gran Turismo 4 with my memory card and a spare controller. The 87 only has 4 pre-outs: L, R, C, Sub. The reason we wanted to use the pre-outs is because the promedia system already has very good bass management and requires a 300Hz crossover to the sats...80Hz just wasn't going to cut it. However, we were going to have to compromise and run the surround sats off the reciever's amplification. But no biggy...there isn't much low frequency content in surround channels anyway so we're probably not going to blow anything up. So after a crazy adventure to find three 1/8" stereo miniplug to stereo RCA adaptors at 11pm we finally started hooking everything up. No sound. I start messing with the computer to force it to output a digital signal from his Audigy LS and still no sound. I turn to the tuning section, no hiss. Getting a little worried I put the computer back to its original configuration and run the analog output into the CD input - ok, now we've got sound. The preamp outputs work. Ok wierd, why isn't it detecting the digital signal? I poke around a bit more and remembered the windows is stupid and that I had to tell windows that there was a digital output. Brandon is majoring in computer science - he too loves microsoft [+o(] Ok, now we've got sound on the digital input for the CD input on the reciever...now let's reassign that digital input to the dvd setting (cuz he uses the computer as a dvd player). So we plop in a movie and there's no sound. *scratches head*. By this point we had already been troubleshooting for 30 minutes and were getting annoyed. The reciever had worked flawlessly on my computer at home in the same application so what's the deal? We do the typical driver reloading crap and make sure everything is up to date. At this point it should be mentioned that creative sound cards are stupid. On the lower models the only digital output is via 1/8" stereo minijack on the back. It does require a stereo cable to function properly and we had originally connected the red plug into the digital input on the reciever. Just for kicks and giggles I tried the white cable instead...click click, we could hear the relay based switching inside the reciever detecting the dolby digital signal and then sound started coming out. Alright, we got sound. *wipes sweat off forehead*. Brandon at this point was starting to question how this was going to be an upgrade if it wasn't functional. Once we got it working it had clicked to me that Jay and some others had mentioned this behavior of the creative cards before....lo and behold I even found a few posts on the forum [] Man, it's been a long time since I've been stumped like that before. If I didn't know it was possible in the first place I would have given up long before we arrived at a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 So now that we've got everything working it was time to balance out the levels. Having some of the speakers powered by the promedia amplifier and some by the reciever meant we had to set the volume on the promedias to a set level so that we can control the system volume with the reciever. It was kinda wierd because we really had to crank the volume on the Denon and the promedias to get any appreciable volume. In fact, we ended up with 77 on the control pod to match the rear surrounds to the front speakers. Here you can see me dialing in the volume listening to nothing other than Nightwish: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 Brandon wanted some ability to adjust the subwoofer volume to accomodate flaws in other recordings so we went ahead and bumped the control pod down to 71 and put the rears to -6 on the reciever. Both manufacturers claim that each increment corresponds to 1dB and it was extremely interesting to see this hold true. Here you can see Brandon's setup. He uses two computers: one has windows installed that he uses for home computing that he needs the audio connected to and then the other is a unix install for school/work related crap. He also has a playstation and gamecube and then of course cable TV, all of which will be running through the reciever and into his promedia system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 And then here is me being a little artsy to try and bring out the detail on the receiver. And yes, it's sitting on his promedia sub. It's only a temporary solution because he will be moving in a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 The sad part about the whole evening is we never got around to playing our game. It was bloody 2am before we finished and there was stuff like work and school to be done early the next morning so we decided to call it a night. We also forgot a few more cables: the optical cable to go between the PS2 and the reciever to achieve surround sound and then a video cable to go between the reciever and the TV so that he can implement video switching through the reciever as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 Ok, just a few more comments... Bass Management This was a bit more complicated than I thought, but here's how the settings ended up: Front: Large Center: Large Surrounds: Small Sub: LFE only (not LFE + mains). I actually had to lookup an article I wrote about bass management because I forgot how it all worked. As far as sound quality there was a marked improvement using the DACs inside the reciever. The Audigy 2 (that I use) is a much better card than the original Audigy and the 87 was still an improvement for me...so in Brandon's situation it was a huge leap forward. One downside to the approach is the fact that the reciever needs to be cranked up all the way to 0 before you start getting into real volume - I've always been leery of running above 0, and I told Brandon not to go higher, but the speakers are capable of way more and the control pod is already cranked really high (he normally doesn't listen above 65). I told him not to crank things for a bit until we've got time for me to be there as I can pickup on the distortion of clipping amps/speakers a little bit quicker than him. The last thing I want to see happen is a blown speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 At this point it should be mentioned that creative sound cards are stupid. On the lower models the only digital output is via 1/8" stereo minijack on the back. It does require a stereo cable to function properly and we had originally connected the red plug into the digital input on the reciever. Just for kicks and giggles I tried the white cable instead...click click, we could hear the relay based switching inside the reciever detecting the dolby digital signal and then sound started coming out. Alright, we got sound. *wipes sweat off forehead*. Brandon at this point was starting to question how this was going to be an upgrade if it wasn't functional. Once we got it working it had clicked to me that Jay and some others had mentioned this behavior of the creative cards before....lo and behold I even found a few posts on the forum [] Man, it's been a long time since I've been stumped like that before. If I didn't know it was possible in the first place I would have given up long before we arrived at a solution. Yup its stupid and is like that on most soundcards with digital out through the 1/8 ministereo jack... One side is ac3 and the other is pcm which are both technically digital but some implement one and the other implement that.... Seriously.... they need to get the act together. I remember one time with my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card that my old altecs detected the pcm and my brother's boston acoustic detected only ac3......... I tried and lo and behold both were putting 5.1 at the same time when I hooked them up together. Glad you remembered me saying that.... And now I can say "I told you so!" [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 The crazy part is that the ac3 line will also carry the pcm signal! There has got to be some justification for it, but I'm so not seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 it's one of those we know how it works now and lets not try to bother reasoning why it works that way but just let it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 luckily my old soundcard webpage has a pretty good diagram on everything red = ac-3 (digital 5.1 with surrounds) white = pcm (digital non 5.1 without surrounds) http://support.turtlebeach.com/site/kb_ftp/585612834.asp NOTES: ------ - To enable the Digital Out in the Santa Cruz Control Panel, choose "Digital Out" in the "VersaJack:" drop down list box in the Output Configuration section of the Main Tab. When in this mode, the VersaJack Digital Out is wired as two digital outputs on a single, stereo 1/8" phone jack. Use a stereo Y-cable adapter as shown below to access the two Digital Outputs: Tip connector = PCM Digital Out: Connects to White or Black RCA plug Ring connector = AC-3 Digital Output: Connects to Red RCA plug. - The AC-3 Digital Output (ring connector) can send PCM digital audio data (standard stereo) as well as AC-3 (5.1 surround) data. Both digital outputs send digital audio data at a sampling rate of 48kHz. To play standard PCM audio data through the VersaJack AC-3 Digital Output (ring connector), go to the Windows Multimedia Control Panel (Start > Settings > Control Panel > Multimedia) and set the Preferred Output Device to Santa Cruz Digital Out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Brandon wanted some ability to adjust the subwoofer volume to accomodate flaws in other recordings so we went ahead and bumped the control pod down to 71 and put the rears to -6 on the reciever. Both manufacturers claim that each increment corresponds to 1dB and it was extremely interesting to see this hold true. Here you can see Brandon's setup. He uses two computers: one has windows installed that he uses for home computing that he needs the audio connected to and then the other is a unix install for school/work related crap. He also has a playstation and gamecube and then of course cable TV, all of which will be running through the reciever and into his promedia system. good troubleshooting Doc, I know it's late but that jug o water and beer look precariously perched on the corner of that desk right above the dude's new receiver. Recipie for disaster. And remember- driving and wearing Chicken suits don't mix! M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelA Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 All that time put in; only to move in a week. Hope you guys took good notes for the reconnect.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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