Sunfire True Signature EQ 2700 watt subwoofer - DEMO

[getech]

In
order to understand how the Sunfire amplifier works, it would be
helpful to review a conventional amplifier and illustrate some of the
very difficult engineering problems associated with powerful and very
high current amplifiers. As you know, a conventional amplifier has a
power supply, and for a 300 watt amplifier the power supply voltage is
approximately 90 volts. That 90 volts is parked way up in the sky at 90
volts above ground zero. The audio signal varies under that voltage and
as long as the amplitude of the audio signal remains below 90 volts,
the amp will not clip or run out of power.



As an example, assume the output voltage at the loudspeaker is 30
volts, and10 amperes of current are flowing. The current starts at the
power supply and flows through the transistors; as it goes through the
transistors it makes them get hot. How hot? The measure of hotness is
power; voltage becomes amperage. Remember, there are 10 amperes flowing
and if there are 30 volts on the loudspeaker and there is a 90 volt
power supply, that means there are 60 volts across the transistors.
Again, the power is equal to volts times amps -- 60 volts times 10 amps
equals 600 watts! That is not the power going to the load, that's the
power going into the transistors as heat and must be gotten rid of.
Hence, the transistors are mounted on a large heat sink; the heat is
transferred to the heat sink and ultimately to the atmosphere.



Now, since the amplifier is only about 20% to 30% efficient, a lot more
power has to go into the amplifier than comes out because 600 watts is
going up in heat. Since it's inefficient, there must be lots of output
transistors, lots of heat sink, and the power supply has to be much
larger than would ordinarily be required in order to make up for all
the power that's being wasted. Instead of a 30 pound power supply, it
has to be 80 pounds. Well, so what? It's not difficult to add the power
supply and heat sink necessary to allow the amplifier to deliver the
power. However, a problem that is very insidious exists!



The problem is this. The output transistors that amplifier designers
use are big 20 ampere output transistors. I use them, they are used in
small amplifiers and large amplifiers. They are used in high end
amplifiers and are even used in most of the big receivers these days.
It's a standard part in our industry. It's the big Motorola, Toshiba
the Sanyo or Sony equivalent. This transistor is rated at 20 amperes.
However, it's only able to deliver 20 amperes if there are 10 volts or
less across it. That's because it's a 200 watt part and can never
dissipate more than 200 watts or its rating is exceeded.



At 50 volts for example, it can deliver only 4 amperes, because 4 times
50 is 200. At 90 volts it can deliver only 2.2 amperes. Going back to
the earlier example with 60 volts across it, it can deliver only 3.3
amperes. Not very much current. If a designer wants to have an
amplifier that's able to deliver lots of current into very low
impedance loads, to deliver current in an unvarying way, no matter how
difficult the loudspeaker impedance, no matter what the phase angle, he
or she must use many paralleled output transistors -- lots and lots of
them. Remember, they are not good for 20 amperes, they are really only
good for a small portion of that, especially when driving low impedance
loads.



Consequently, a designer has to parallel many, many output transistors.
He or she must mount these transistors on huge heat sinks, and, because
the amplifier is not very efficient it must have a huge power supply.
Since each transistor draws its own idling current, the amplifier tends
to run hot when it is just sitting there at idle. Biasing issues become
very severe problems. To this day, solutions are still being sought.
For example, Nelson Pass uses the sliding biasing circuit, and Krell
uses a four-tiered switchable dynamic biasing circuit. Engineers and
designers forever fret over whether they're going to bias their
amplifiers Class A, or Class AB, or use a sliding bias scheme. Big
problem. Still, amplifiers that can deliver these awesome and majestic
currents do exist, but to get there you have to reach up to the big
Mark Levinson's, Thresholds, the big Jeff Roland's, even the massive
Krell's. Those amplifiers can deliver the performance, but they are
very expensive -- starting at about $8,000. There is a better way.



THE TRACKING DOWNCONVERTER

In
the Sunfire amplifier, that 90 volt power supply voltage that I
mentioned earlier is removed from being parked 90 volts above ground,
and is brought down and parked at only 6 volts above ground. The 90
volts no longer exists. Then, at any moment in time, regardless of what
the output of the amplifier is, that power supply voltage will always
be 6 volts above the output signal. If the output signal is zero, the
output of the Tracking Downconverter will be 6 volts. If the output of
the power amplifier is 30 volts, as in the previous example, the output
of the Tracking Downconverter will be 36 volts. The voltage across the
transistors remains a constant, unvarying 6 volts. Therein lies the
beauty of the Tracking Downconverter.



Now, consider the previous example. The amplifier was delivering 30
volts to the load and10 amperes of current were flowing. That example
resulted in 600 watts of power in the output transistors. In the
Sunfire amplifier, that same 10 amperes is not dropping across 60
volts. Instead, it's dropping across 6 volts so the power is only 6
volts times 10 amps -- 60 watts wasted rather than 600 watts. Ten times
less -- an order of magnitude less. It's so little power that the
amplifier does not have a heat sink; it doesn't need one. There is not
a heat sink to be seen in this amplifier, yet it can deliver well over
2,000 watts into 1 ohm. And because of its increased efficiency, the
power supply doesn't have to weigh 80 pounds. The power supply can be a
reasonable 30 pounds.



But here's the best part! Remember that a 20 ampere transistor can only
deliver the full 20 amperes if there are 10 volts or less across it
(because of its 200 watt limit). In the Sunfire, since there are only 6
volts across the transistors at all times, the full output current of
20 amperes can be delivered from each output transistor instead of 2, 3
or 4 amperes as in a conventional amplifier. Because each output
transistor can deliver its full 20 amperes, the amp can deliver lots
and lots of current into low impedance loads. In the Sunfire I used 12
output transistors per channel, each capable of 20 amperes; that
represents a peak to peak output current of over 240 amperes. And it
can do so into varnishing low load impedances. That's a staggering
amount of current. That's what is required to have an amplifier with
the performance of a $10,000 machine.



THE UNCANNY TRACKING DOWNCONVERTER AND A TRULY REMARKABLE FACT

A remarkable
feature of the Tracking Downconverter is its intrinsic and unique ability
to transform
high voltage and low current to low voltage and high current.
For example, if the input power to the downconverter is being delivered at
a very high voltage, the output power can be delivered at a very high current.
The transformation ratio; i.e., how much the current is increased, is in the
same proportion that the voltage is decreased. In the case of the Sunfire,
the power supply voltage is 2 times 125 volts, approximately 250 volts. Therefore,
if the input current is 10 amperes and the output voltage is 25 volts; corresponding
to a difficult or low load impedance; the output current will be 100 amperes
because 250 divided by 25 is10. (The input current 10 amperes multiplied at
the output by 10 for 100 amperes. A conventional amp could never do that, i.e.
10 amps in equals 10 amps out.) . It's this remarkable property of a Tracking
Downconverter that allows the amplifier to deliver tons of current into vanishing
low load impedances. It is also the property that allows the amp to run cold,
to have a smaller power supply than would conventionally be required, and to
possess a very flat output voltage characteristic. Whenever the load impedance
is halved, the power just continuously doubles. A scientist would say "load invariant".
Have you ever lusted for a $7,000 - $20,000 Mark Levinson, Roland, Krell, or
Boulder amplifier?



At that point in the design, the Sunfire was an amplifier that could
deliver almost limitless current, almost limitless voltage and deliver
both simultaneously for tremendous output power, and runs cold.
However, the design is not yet complete. The amplifier needs to be
listened to. Listening to an amplifier in its design process is
potentially the most time consuming, and is where the art of amplifier
design enters the picture. When I listen, I first use a female vocalist
and make certain that she can be accurately located in an acoustic
space between the speakers and in such a way that a believable halo of
space surrounds her, and she becomes palpably three dimensional. Also,
I want her voice to be soft, musical, lyrical and have a great deal of
believability. After the female voice, I listen to the male voice using
baritones for the chestiness in the human male voice. When that part of
the work is completed, I go to the symphony. I have in my head a
template of what a symphony orchestra should sound like. I close my
eyes and fit the sound of that symphony orchestra in my head, to the
sound that my amplifier is making through the loudspeakers. In the case
of the Sunfire, since human voice reproduction was so stunning, I found
that the symphony orchestra locked in and I didn't have to do anything
--- sort of like getting flesh tones correct on a color television
receiver, all the other colors often lock in with very little effort.
Getting the flesh tones correct is the most difficult process of
designing a color set. But I digress. This effort was because I wanted
a totally accurate amplifier.



CURRENT SOURCE - VOLTAGE SOURCE

At
that point I had an amplifier that was tremendous -- lots of current,
lots of voltage, incredible performance and then I added a unique
feature: A choice of outputs -- voltage source output and current
source output. Let me explain. A transistor is inherently a voltage
source device; whenever an amplifier designer designs an amplifier with
transistors, the result is a solid state amp that will typically have a
very low output impedance approaching zero. A vacuum tube, on the other
hand, is intrinsically a current source device. If an amplifier
designer builds an amplifier out of vacuum tubes, he or she typically
ends up with an amplifier that has a current source output
characteristic, i.e., a higher output impedance. It's this high output
impedance that is primarily responsible for at least 80% to 90% of what
makes a vacuum tube amplifier sound like a vacuum tube amplifier -- a
glow to the midrange, a soft high end, typically a layered stage depth
and an open sound stage that is wider than it would be with a solid
state amplifier. This musical presentation is very sumptuous and lovely
to listen to, is quite captivating and the main reason many people love
vacuum tube amplifiers.





Now, back to the Sunfire. Sunfire has two sets of output terminals on
the back. One is a voltage source output with very low impedance. The
other is a current source output with a higher impedance (current
source) output characteristic. The choice of which to use is up to you.
If you wish a solid state kind of sound, use the voltage source output
terminals. If you want the vacuum tube sound, use the current source
output terminals. Or, and this is the best part, you can bi-wire your
speakers. Use the voltage source to the woofer, and wire the current
source to the upper range of the system. That way you have the tight
slam impact bass that a solid state amplifier can deliver, and you have
the glow to the midrange, the sumptuous sound stage, and soft,
delicately detailed highs that current source amplifiers typically
deliver, i.e., vacuum tube amplifiers. The best of both worlds --
Again, when wired that way, you have tight bass, a beautiful sound
stage, a sumptuous high end and a very believable sense of layered
depth to the sound stage that is simply not available from a solid
state amplifier. (At least from normal output impedance solid state
amplifiers.)



SUNFIRE CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION, AMPLIFIER SECTION

The
input stage is a low noise FET operational amplifier operated in a
forced Class A single ended mode. The output of this stage drives
balanced Class A level shifters and a balanced Class A voltage stage
that swings the full rail of 250 volts peak to peak. The remainder of
the current gain stages run full balanced with a constant VCE of 6
volts to the loudspeaker. It is heavily biased into the Class A region
for small signals and Class AB region for large signals. Since the
power dissipation in the output stages under simple quiescent bias
conditions is 15 times less than a regular amplifier for the same
output power, much more idle current can be used. The issue of how to
bias this amplifier becomes moot -- all but irrelevant. All of the
biasing issues simply evaporate because of the 6 volts. Even though it
has a vacuum tube output characteristic on the current source output
terminals, there is not a vacuum tube inside at all -- except for the
meter pilot lamp, it's fully solid state.



THE UNCANNY TRACKING DOWNCONVERTER

Coming
in from the outside world, we find a conventional main power supply; a
large power transformer and filter capacitors. The output of this power
supply feeds the Tracking Downconverter. The output of the Tracking
Downconverter is fully regulated and tracks the audio, receiving its
input signal from the same signal that drives the main amplifier.
Essentially, the Tracking Downconverter is another power amplifier
because its output voltage is in synchronism with, and tracks the audio
signal, always above it a constant 6 volts. The input to the
downconverter is a small signal Class A Motorola transistor. The output
of this transistor drives a Texas Instrument PWM digital comparator.
The output of the comparator drives a Hewlett Packard precision
optocoupler which level shifts the digital control pulses to the gates
of 12 International Rectifier Hexfets. The final output is smoothed
into a continuously varying tracking voltage by the main energy storage
downconverter inductor wound with humongous #12 wire on a low loss
non-saturating ferrite inductor. The final energy storage capacitor is
a 6.8 microfarad low ESR unit, and 12 dB of feedback is taken from this
capacitor to the input stage. Finally, a Shotky free wheeling diode
provides the energy return path for the Hexfet side of the
downconverter inductor.



SIDE BAR

Many
amplifier testers will operate an amplifier into an essentially dead
short circuit and give it a pulse of 500 microseconds or 20
microseconds or even one-thousandth of a second and measure the output
current. This test is only a parlor trick since the output current can
be very large, but since the load impedance is zero, and power is I
squared R, no matter how large the current, the output power is zero.
It is a parlor trick. The amplifier could never sustain those huge
currents for more than a few hundred microseconds because if it did,
the transistors would blow up.



Take a conventional amplifier and do such a test with it and you can
have incredibly high currents for a few hundred microseconds, but not
for long. The amplifier would blow up because for the high voltages
that exist across the transistors during that moment in time, the
transistors are rated for only a few amperes (not tens or hundreds of
amperes). However, this test does tell the amplifier tester a lot about
the protection circuits. A skilled tester can determine whether the
amplifier has current limiters or power-fold back protection circuits,
or whether it doesn't have any protection circuits at all and relies on
fuses alone. It does not tell anything about how much useful current
the amplifier can deliver. A conventional amplifier may deliver 60
amperes or more for 100 microseconds but could not, under those
conditions, ever deliver more than 8 amperes of current for longer than
that. Not exactly a high current amplifier. Again, it tells us
something about the action of the protection circuits, but not about
the current capability of the amplifier. By comparison, the Sunfire
could deliver those huge currents all day long -- far longer than a few
hundred microseconds.



SUNFIRE, PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

1) Full output current from each transistor is always available up to 20 amperes per transistor.

2) Massive output current is available even at low output impedances.

3) Heat sinks are not required.

4) Power continuously doubles down to below 1 ohm.

5)
Most of the input power goes to the load, therefore, the power supply
can weigh 30 pounds instead of 80 pounds. The amplifier can supply
humongous current, massive output power, tremendous voltage, runs cool,
and is very efficient.

6) Only 12 output transistors are needed per channel for peak-to-peak current of 240 amps.

7) Bias current and idling current issues become irrelevant and nonproblematic.

8)
The Tracking Downconverter multiplies current in the same ratio that
the output voltage is reduced and it does so automatically by its
intrinsic nature.

9)
At high impedances, it delivers high voltage and high current. At low
impedances or difficult impedances, it delivers even more current,
delivering awesome and difficult to believe amounts.

10)
When biwired, Sunfire delivers incredible bass whack and a huge three
dimensional sound stage with detail retrieval so stunning that you will
often hear musicians breathing.

11
) Costs far less than any other amplifier in the world that has
Sunfire's performance. All because of science and the uncanny Tracking
Downconverter.

MY PERSONAL BELIEF SYSTEM REGARDING AMPLIFIER DESIGN

My
philosophy regarding amplifier design is embodied in this new Sunfire
amplifier. The amplifier speaks for itself, but I would like to address
some of the details:








INTEGRATED CIRCUIT OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS -- In
the past, monolithic integrated circuit operational amplifiers (op
amps) have received a bad rap for use in audio circuits, and for good
reason. My experience has been that if a sampling of op amps, all from
the same manufacturer, and all the same number, are tested, one finds
that about one in fifteen will exhibit some crossover notch distortion.
The reason for this is that most op amps operate with a Class AB output
stage, but they do not have a control for adjusting the idling current.




Since an op amp is subject to the same limitations that a big amplifier
is, some of the units will exhibit large crossover notch distortion,
most will exhibit none, and a few of them will actually run slightly
warmer than intended. In high speed mass production the op amp idling
current is set by the design of the circuit, but it does not come with
an adjustment to allow for variations in idling current. This problem
may be completely eliminated by operating op amps in what's known as
forced Class A operation. This is very easy to do. All that is required
is a current source or a simple pull up resistor installed at the
output of the amplifier. This forces one transistor to be always off
and the other transistor to be continuously operating as a single ended
Class A output device. As long as the op amp is operated within the new
current source limit, the output will be totally free of crossover
notch distortion. The practical result is that any family of op amps
can be used with absolute assurance that all of them, time after time
again, will not have crossover non-linearities.



In the past, this problem has given op amps a very bad name for use in
audio circuits and, from my perspective, unnecessarily so. Yet, as you
can see, not without good reason. In my designs, whenever I use an op
amp, I always use a current source at its output. The choice of whether
to use an op amp or to use discrete components is a matter of
application. For example, for low distortion small signal requirements,
an op amp is definitely the way to go. Normally, an op amp will have
better power supply rejection and will be far more linear. In the case
of FET input amplifiers, vanishing low offset voltages and great
immunity to input rectification accrue. Slew rates can be as high as we
please and distortion as low as we please, depending on the choice of
op amps. However, in other applications, for example, one with large
signal swings, a discrete circuit is best when higher current is
required than is normally available from integrated circuit op amps.



In conclusion, for a small signal amplifier operating on plus and minus
15 volts, I would always chose a good op amp. I would never build a
discrete one unless I had a very special application, i.e. high current
or high voltage output.



DISCRETE CIRCUITS

I
design with discrete circuits whenever I have complex feedback issues,
or when I have complex signal processing issues in which control
voltages must be developed for muting circuits, protection circuits, or
dynamic control circuits as in a prologic decoder and, of course, in
the output stages and driver stages of high power, high current audio
amplifiers.



CAPACITORS

I
prefer to use film capacitors for coupling capacitors and to use
electrolytic and/or film capacitors in bypass applications. I prefer to
use ceramic capacitors in high frequency feedback systems and for
certain high frequency bypass applications. I use electrolytics for
energy storage and will use an electrolytic capacitor as a coupling
capacitor provided that under no condition is the voltage across the
capacitor allowed to vary at all. This means that a very large coupling
capacitor has to be used at the lowest frequency of interest and it
must be approximately 100 times larger than normally required. Hence,
an electrolytic can't be used in a filter circuit or critical timing
circuit. In that case I would use either a film capacitor or a
precision ceramic capacitor.



Further, I believe that ceramic capacitors are best for high frequency
stabilization in feedback loops, and the use of film capacitors in that
application is something that relatively inexperienced designers do,
and for the most part I consider to be a fad having essentially zero
scientific substance. When you examine a circuit that I design, you
will find a mixture of electrolytic capacitors, ceramic capacitors
tantalum capacitors, film capacitors, low ESR film capacitors, and high
current capacitors, depending on the particular application. Each type
of capacitor has its advantages and disadvantages when used in any
particular circuit. The choices you will see in my circuit designs are
the ones that I believe yield the best results and the best sound.



OUTPUT TRANSISTORS - BIPOLAR OR MOSFET

I
believe that the output stage of a power amplifier is best served by
designing and building it with bipolar transistors simply because
bipolar transistors are more linear, can deliver more current, and will
typically have better SOA (Safe Operating Area) specifications for
simultaneous voltage and current when compared to an equivalent mosfet.
If a very high performing amplifier is desired, bipolar transistors are
the exclusive way to go and you can see this by simply surveying the
amplifiers on the market. All the very expensive, very high current,
high performing amplifiers in the $8,000, $10,000, $15,000 price range
use bipolar transistors. Not one is designed using mosfets. Bipolars
are best in audio output stages. The use of mosfets in audio output
stages, again, is basically in my opinion, a fad. Excellent results, of
course, can be obtained in lower priced, lower powered amplifiers using
mosfets.



MOSFETS OR HEXFETS

(Brand name of International Rectifier mosfets)

I
design high power clocking circuits using mosfets because that's where
their advantage lies. If a device is going to be on or off, then a
mosfet is definitely the way to go because Safe Operating Area
considerations are not an issue, and their high speed and lack of
storage time can yield incredible efficiencies. In those applications
they are extremely rugged -- far more rugged than bipolar transistors
-- just the opposite of when used as a linear output device, in which
case bipolars are more rugged than mosfets.



To summarize, I use bipolars for linear operation, and mosfets in
digital applications. Given the choice, I would never do otherwise.
(Given the best of both devices currently available.)



PRECISION PARTS

My
choice of using precision parts is based on my scientific view of the
world. It's not based on myth or fads. For example, in my Sunfire, I
use the fastest, lowest transition time, highest precision digital
comparator on the face of the earth. That is a Hewlett Packard
HCPL-2611 because the circuit performs best when using the best
precision available. In the case of circuit performance, I ordinarily
use 1% precision resistors because by using 1% resistors, assembly and
manufacturing efficiencies are vastly increased because provisions for
adjusting the circuit to come into specifications are not required.
Each circuit works the same as the previous circuit time after time
after time in a manufacturing environment.



FALSE BELIEFS

I
think that false beliefs, especially in audio, have given rise to some
really wild designs, for example, $25,000 nine watt audio amplifiers.
You will never find me designing such equipment -- I simply do not
believe in it. However, I love to read about such designs, and I love
to think and talk about them. I'm overjoyed there are people in this
world who do design amplifiers like that. It's part of what makes audio
so much fun.

[TheEAR]

getech,

Man that is a great CUT COPY AND PASTE !

[getech]

gee, thanks ear...nice to see you are on top of things!

[mas]

Its nice to hear that Bob Carver "prefer(s) to use film capacitors for coupling capacitors and to use electrolytic and/or film capacitors in bypass applications" as well as being a SET fan(not)! []

On the other hand, John Meyer occassionally (hey, its bound to happen! ...its just a matter of probability!) comes up with an idea regarding meaningful amplifier ratings that has some merit: http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/amp_power.htm

[TheEAR]

Just in,my low end Sunfire D-8 just died today! After a giant 20 minutes of operation last night,I switched the sub off.Today nothing,no function light! All fuses good,both back and the two inside! The transformer looks like a major POS(very much the culprit here,blackened winding!).

Why is Bob switching to this POS amp,is beyond me.The older transformerless Sunfire subs all work A1,this one (the D-8) dies after 20 minutes! LOL

I am bringing the amp to the store for an exchange.What a lemon.Now you know,even SUnfire subs(the cheap ones D series) can die. My Signature,Mark II and Super Junior never had any problems,even after blasting them full tilt and years of use!

This isn the first product I have that dies after so little time.Well I will not strat crying like in the LoudMedia ssecion.Lemons are a part of life,I AM FUMING MAD now...at least I have my dozens of subs to continue pumping the subsonics.

getech,

Ask Bob to demand forgivness for this incident.I want a compensation...a FREE Sunfire keychain. []

[Paul]

Just in,my low end Sunfire D-8 just died today! After a giant 20 minutes of operation last night,I switched the sub off.Today nothing,no function light! All fuses good,both back and the two inside! The transformer looks like a major POS(very much the culprit here,blackened winding!).

Why is Bob switching to this POS amp,is beyond me.The older transformerless Sunfire subs all work A1,this one (the D-8) dies after 20 minutes! LOL

I am bringing the amp to the store for an exchange.What a lemon.Now you know,even SUnfire subs(the cheap ones D series) can die. My Signature,Mark II and Super Junior never had any problems,even after blasting them full tilt and years of use!

This isn the first product I have that dies after so little time.Well I will not strat crying like in the LoudMedia ssecion.Lemons are a part of life,I AM FUMING MAD now...at least I have my dozens of subs to continue pumping the subsonics.

getech,

Ask Bob to demand forgivness for this incident.I want a compensation...a FREE Sunfire keychain. []

Some day some one will think of installing 120mil computer fans to cool the insides,Well Let it be me[] diy.

[getech]

Ear, sorry about your D-8...that should not have happened but I am sure they will take care of you...if not let me know.

I'D LOVE A SUNFIRE KEYCHAIN MYSELF. How about a Sunfire brochure instead?

[TheEAR]

Ear, sorry about your D-8...that should not have happened but I am sure they will take care of you...if not let me know.

I'D LOVE A SUNFIRE KEYCHAIN MYSELF. How about a Sunfire brochure instead?

Well guess what? It was the POWER SWITCH! I replaced my amp,a little switch! Now works fine. Thanks for the help,I think you would install a special amp that would take TheEAR out cold. []

OH OH OH I have to post some funny pic,all three in a pyramid,like my RSW's. He comming down this way in a few minutes. []

The D12 is a very nice inexpensive sub,like the D8 and D10 it is both very tight,controlled and is more about bass definition than fake bloated boom.Bob Carver has another hit,will please many people seeking very compact subs. Not to be mistaken with petty bass modules that add moer distortion they add bass.These are very clean and distortion only starts to raise in any significant way when you drop doan to the extension limits of these subs.

Make sure to use a double sided tape to fix them in place,sound better and will have more impact.All my small Velodyne and Sunfire subs are taped(double side security stickers)to the floor(hardwood flooring).

[TheEAR]

All sealed,8",10" and 12" woofers.

[Paul]

Ear, sorry about your D-8...that should not have happened but I am sure they will take care of you...if not let me know.

I'D LOVE A SUNFIRE KEYCHAIN MYSELF. How about a Sunfire brochure instead?

Ok you wanted a brochure here you go....[]

[Paul]

Ear, sorry about your D-8...that should not have happened but I am sure they will take care of you...if not let me know.

I'D LOVE A SUNFIRE KEYCHAIN MYSELF. How about a Sunfire brochure instead?

Ok you wanted a brochure here you go....[]

[Paul]

Ear, sorry about your D-8...that should not have happened but I am sure they will take care of you...if not let me know.

I'D LOVE A SUNFIRE KEYCHAIN MYSELF. How about a Sunfire brochure instead?

Ok you wanted a brochure here you go,The front looks nice[]

[TheEAR]

This is just great Paul,seriously.I never,EVER saw this brochure. [:@]

[Paul]

This is just great Paul,seriously.I never,EVER saw this brochure. [:@]

This was not for you Ear it was for getech, I thought he asked for one [*-)],I know you have boxs full of them[]

[TheEAR]

Yes I have,had all the subs in the Sunfire book...[] Bob Carver designs great audio gear.