Looking to build a new sub, need driver recommendations/help

[Jay481985]

"I respect a company that will be good on their word with release dates"

And above all I respect one that does not rush a product and delivers a winner not a lemon(remember the LF10 and LF12,air leaks,amp/woofer issues...)that disapears from the market like a shadow. []

You like to argue,be prepared better. So far you have not made much progress. [8-|]

prepared, please I love you're petty insults back and forth and pushing and touting that you have more subs then anyone else. So what, is that your point everything?

i.e. a new forum member, "I'm looking for a sub in the 500 dollar range."

theear, " well you can get 23 subs like me, how about trying a gotham or a f113 that is 10 times your budget because I have one"

new forum member, "uhhhh........ I think I will get a sub-12"

theear, "yeah thats a nice subwoofer for the price but when you get a JL then you are talking about a 'true' subwoofer."

new forum member never is seen again.

[TheEAR]

I do not recomend 3K JL Audio subs to anyone seeking a $500 sub,you take everything out of proportion. I point so people can maybe audition one and hear/feel what is possible in a compact sub.

Your twisting of words is sad.
Your little game you are going to play alone junior.

[Raider]

I've done several subs in high-end installations in several cars using sealed, ported, bandpass, IB, and aperiodic loading.  I have used several subs that were OEM'd by TC Sounds, and they are excellent products.  JL Audio products are generally considered the reference standard for subs in that they provide both sound quality and output.  Their product line focuses on providing optimum value at each price point and on niche products that optimize around a specific design criteria.  One differentiator between TC and JL is the amount of R&D and refinement done by both firms, relative to other industry brands, as well as the amount of resident knowledge.  However, JL takes this to the next level, and is known for being careful to fully develop a product before introduction, even at significant loss. While both companies manufacture in house domestically and are vertically integrated at this point, another differentiator for JL is that component parts of each driver are generally purpose-built for that specific driver, with a lesser amount of parts sharing across models.  They often bear cosmetic and familial resemblance, but are in fact different. For example the automotive W7 and the driver in the F113 appear to be the same, but JL's site shows the subtle but significant differences.  So if I were in your position, with no restraint on budget, I would choose JL.  You will also find their pre and post purchase support exemplary.

A couple of things have been touched on earlier, but bear repeating.  First is that without question a sealed enclosure is the easiest to predictably implement in a vehicle environment. The natural rolloff of the driver in a sealed enclosure is offset by cabin gain below the resonant frequency of the vehicle.  This enables flat response to the limits of hearing with little or no equalization necessary if enclosure size is properly utilized.  Also, the sealed enclosure can be built in most any shape, assuming proper construction with non-resonance as the goal, which is a great advantage with the odd shape of vehicle interiors.  (By the way JL offers some excellent fiberglass enclosures made to fit certain vehicles in an unobtrusive manner).  Other enclosure types can certainly be done and done well, but the variables involved require considerable knowledge and expertise to properly implement.  On the other hand sealed enclosures are relatively simple, predictable, and foolproof in the vehicle envoronment and are far more likely to yield best results. 

Another thing to consider as far as real world listening is concerned, is that the subwoofers you are considering are flagship products designed for maximum (read that capable-of-inducing-hearing-loss) levels well above normal and even very loud listening levels.  Output of these subs will actually modulate your voice if you speak within a vehicle at extreme outputs, and you can feel you inner ear fluttering as it tries to protect itself.  Certainly the stuff of bragging rights, but not something that can be safely enjoyed on a routine basis, as hearing loss is a function of both output and length of exposure. Indeed industry professionals that attend CES often use hearing protection at these shows.  Consider yourself warned.

Also since these subs are capable of extreme output, they require commensurately extreme power.  Generally to get a super-sub to properly perform, at least a kilowatt of power will be needed to attain maximum levels.  And as DocWho points out, ampifiers drawing this kind of power will tax the output capability of even vehicles equipped with heavy duty alternatiors and batteries. About an aggregate of a kilowatt total for all ammplifiers used is the practical output limit for most cars.  

Often super-subs are not linear, that is, it may take a lot of power to make the unit really come alive acoustically, but at lower more normal levels they may lose sensitivity.  So the balance at different output levels may be hard to dial in. The W7 and W6 are actually unusually good at both moderate and high levels.  TCSounds to their credit is careful to note the intended use of their various subs in order to create realistic expectations with prospective customers, as well as realistic expectaations for power requirements.  This aids the customer in making an appropriate selection. Some folks find it a better solution to use a more moderate amplifier (around 500 watts), and a sub or two of a more moderate design.  This can provide a better, more listenable and musical solution, but one that is still capable of producing very loud and visceral volumes.  You might consider for example using one or two W6 JL's instead of a W7.  One reputable auto sub reviewer pronounced the W6 as the best sub he had ever heard, so don't overlook this possibility.

Good luck on your purchase.  It will be difficult to not be happy with whichever alternative you choose.

[darkside]

Thanks very much for the info....

I guess I should have stated
earlier, sorry for not having done so, but this sub is to be intended
for casual listening, of course with the added bass of a sub. I was/am
looking for a high sound quality sub and SPL is not much of a concern,
just so long as I can hear it. With those intentions, I set my sights
on the W7 and LMS 4000 because I would expect good SQ from products
like those not realizing power draws and so on. I guess I need now to
look at maybe a lesser sub? If so, I would most likely look more into
an Ascendant Audio of some kind, unless anyone has other
recommendations for a low power/good quality sub as I have turned
nothing else up.

Thanks

[Raider]

Darkside

Given what you are saying, I would definitely advise you to look at the JLAudio 12w6.  It has most all of the sound quality that the W7 has, and can be easily driven with about 300-500 watts.  They are bringing about $250 in street prices here.  Another excellent low cost alternative is the Parts Express Reference subs.  These can be purchased under $150 and work in very small enclosures and work well with about 500 watts as well.  They have excellent support through the PE community on the forum at the partsexpress.com site.  They are known for their value and excellent sound quality.  But if you can spring for the W6, I would definitely take that route. See 

[darkside]

Alright...

I was considering the reference high fidelity subs
as they can be put into a small enclosure. I will definitely look into
the W6 (its the W6v2 right?) and see what I get. I'll get back on
that later...

[darkside]

I think I know something that will work.

A 12W6v2 in an approx
2 cu ft sealed box (its like 1.9988 cu ft after sub displacement) that
will measure 20"w x 20"d x 9"h and the sub will mount on the top of the
box. would this work well?

[darkside]

Err hmm...bump

[darkside]

Bump....

[darkside]

Bump please...

[darkside]

Hello? Anyone?

[darkside]

People please...help

[OneTwoMany]

1. 10" TC Sounds LMS-4000<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Bad choice for a car unless you want a big box. This sub doest work well ported and really requires a large sealed box. If you want a sealed sub this is great, but expect to use at least 3 cubic feet for this guy

2. JL 8w7 or 10w7

Dont even consider the 8, total waste of money. But the 10" is a great driver. Its got adequate cone area for a 10 and a pretty beefy voice coil. Not quite as wide or as long as the LMS-4000 and its less layers so it wont handle as much power, but its more sensitive and can work in a smaller box because it got more BL product.

3. 10" Adire Audio Brahma

Another good choice, but anticipate a large box, I believe the Brahma is linear under hung driver so it should have great SQ but not nearly as much throw as the LMS-4000 or JL 10W7.

4. 8" or 10" Ascendant Audio Assassin

Certainly a step down in motor and voice coil. These will not have the output or displacement of the others, but probably sound great. Looks like Ascendant uses copper under the gap which is a great SQ feature on a sub-100 dollar driver.

5. Madison Dragon 18 or Executioner X 21

Dont know much about this

hope that helped.

[darkside]

Yeah, I was told by raider that the 12W6v2 is ana amazing SQ driver,
so that is my first pick as of right now, in a 2 cu ft box. Im not sure
if that'd be a good idea. Anyone got any suggestions?

[Raider]

I recommend that you go here:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=4

Download the owner's manual, and build the enclosure to JL's specs.

[darkside]

Ok, but I'll have to tweak the dimensions as the box can't be higher that 11 inches. But a 12w6v2 definitely

[darkside]

Hmm, im probably gonna go with the 12w6v2 in a box with dutside
dimensions of 9.5"h x 25.5"w x 14.5" deep made of 3/4" MDF or plywood
which would put internal dimensions at 8" x 24" x 13" netting an
internal volume 1.444cu ft with driver displacement about 1.354cu ft
leaving room for bracing....now i need to find an amp

[darkside]

Hey, what kind of power would be needed to run A 15O watt amp? Like would I need a new battery or anything?

[DrWho]

You'll be fine with your stock electronics...just make sure you have a 20 Amp fuse between your amp and the battery. Or if you're lazy like me, I just put my amp under the driver's seat and hooked its power to the cigerette lighter circuit.

[darkside]

Hmm, sounds like a plan. I've found a Rockford Fosgate amp, 150watts

into 2 ohms, perfect, just to get it before the auction ends.