sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Hello all, I hope somebody can help me out here. I am having problems with my RSW-12 subwoofer. The problems started a couple of months ago when I noticed that my sub was not working. I say noticed because my HT system is used primarily to watch the evening news and a couple of weekly dramas on TV. It is only occasionally on the weekends that the wifey and I sit for a few hours of music that the sub even comes on (we use the auto-on feature so it is usually off). Any way when I notice that it was not working I contacted Klipsch and they were very helpful in helping me to identify the problem. It turned out that the driver was shot (showed dead open with an ohm meter) and that the amp/controller was also fried. I got a replacement driver and sent the amp/controller unit back to Hope for repairs. I asked the folks at Klipsch if they could look at the amp and tell me what went wrong so if it was something I did (push it too hard??) or something possibly wrong with my AVR I could fix it and prevent it from happening again. Due to the way they handle these amp returns they were unable to tell me anything. So I just put the whole thing back together and decided to just chalk it up to a faulty unit. Fast forward a month...I again notice that the sub is not working. I do the same tests as before and find the driver to be ok. So again I pull the amp/controller and send them to Hope for repair. This time I include in the package with the amp a note asking the folks in Hope to try to do a little diagnostics before sending it for repair. I did this at the request of the customer service tech I had been dealing with in Indy (Steve Phillips). Again I get my amp and controller back but no failure analysis of any kind. So I put the entire thing back together but do not hook it back up to the system as I am now seriously concerned that something either in the way I use it or in my system is causing the sub to get fried. I email Steve Phillips at Klipsch Indy customer support and tell him of my concerns. Steve responded that the first replacement amp I got was a rebuild but this one was a new one and that his techs felt that I had just been unlucky so far and should just hook it up and not worry. Well I am not so sure. To ease my mind a bit I decided to do a test. I connected an old inexpensive sub (an Optimus SW10P) into my system and disconnected all other speakers (so I could just hear the sub). I played the system for a few minutes and did not notice anything unusual. I then connected my RSW-12 and nothing. At the same main volume (on the AVR) and with both subs set to 70 on the crossover and 50% on the gain. I got nothing out of the RSW-12. I then noticed that at the volume I was playing the Sub was not waking up. Ah thats the problem (I think) and I increase the volume on the AVR. Finally the Sub does come on but the volume (the actual SPL of the sub not the volume control) is incredibly soft. Thinking that maybe there just isn't much there below the 70hz cutoff, I connected the old Optimus sub up and it was at least 3 times as loud as the RSW-12. What up with that??? The Optimus is a 10" 100watt <$150 10 year old sub. The RSW-12 is a 12" 650watt $1K 1 year old sub. What could be wrong here? Anybody got any thoughts? Thanks, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I see three possibilities. First, a surge protector may help. Non-current limiting models should be used such as the Furman series type. Second, your receiver may be clipping the sub out signal. Third, static electricity may have damaged the amp. I have both the RSW-12 and 15 hooked up to a receiver that can put out up to 11 volts on the sub out. Try setting the sub out on your receiver/processor to a lower setting and compensate with the gain control on the sub. Any subwoofer can be over driven, so be careful. Dischage static before touching the back of the sub. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 hmmm test to see that you are not getting over the normal 120 volts, it sounds like you might be getting 130 or so volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 I see three possibilities. First, a surge protector may help. Non-current limiting models should be used such as the Furman series type. Second, your receiver may be clipping the sub out signal. Third, static electricity may have damaged the amp. I have both the RSW-12 and 15 hooked up to a receiver that can put out up to 11 volts on the sub out. Try setting the sub out on your receiver/processor to a lower setting and compensate with the gain control on the sub. Any subwoofer can be over driven, so be careful. Dischage static before touching the back of the sub. Bill Bill, Thanks for the response. How do any of these three possiblities explain my current situation where the RSW-12 with a new amp and controller is producing WAY less volume than the el-cheapo sub on the same material? I am using a Harman Kardon AVR 7300 to drive the sub and the bass management setting is set to L/R + LFE with the sub gain (in the reciever) set at 0 DB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 What a drag. [^o)] My only thought after thinking of possible scenarios is to make sure you have the lowpass "disabled" on the sub (and if not, see if you have the crossover set too low on the RSW). My second thought has to do with my situation. I have to send my RSW-15's Amp and Preamp in and my biggest fear is when I try to reinstall it will be User Error! I am not that technical and I want the THUMP in my system to be there after I get my stuff backfrom Hope and my dumbass puts it all back together. [:S] I listen to my HT a lot and my RSW 15 was sounding great before the storm--If I get it back and it doesn't ROCK that first day...I feel confident that between them and me we can get the LOW DOWN to get it back down LOW. Their Customer Service with Reference products seem to be quite high. If I were you I would call Klipsch on Monday. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I've forwarded a link to this thread back to the office. Stick with us, we'll get something figured out. I'll talk to Steve P. on Monday and see what we can do for you. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 I've forwarded a link to this thread back to the office. Stick with us, we'll get something figured out. I'll talk to Steve P. on Monday and see what we can do for you. Michael Thanks, I have talked at great length with Steve P. on this issue and he has been very helpful. Unfortunately it seems that Klipsch does not manufacture or rebuild these amp/controllers themselves but rather contracts that to someone else. What that means is that when you send one in to be rebuilt they (Hope) simply pulls one off a shelf that has been previously rebuilt and then sends yours out to be rebuilt. I can see how this makes it very difficult to track an individual amp to get any kind of failure analysis done. When you talk to Steve tell him that I am the individual that was asking if DC spikes (created by the pre-amp when the audio stream is switched) could be the cause of the recurring failures. That should spark his memory and allow him to know what issue we are working on. On a separate note (aside from the recurring failure that is) can you think of any reason for this RSW-12 with a brand new (not rebuilt according to Steve P.) amp and controller to play several times quiter than an old cheap sup? I did a bit more work on nailing down the actual problem with real numbers and here are the results. For the test I used an old Technics 100wpc AVR I have in the basement which simply has a Sub out, it has no bass management. I fed the AVR a 70hz sine wave from a PC sound card at a fixed amplitude. I set the crossover adjustments for both subs to 70hz and gain control to 50% I set the AVR volume control to about 25% SPL measurements were done with the RS digital SPL meter set to slow response with C weighting I then connected the RSW-12 and played the sine wave and measured the SPL. The result was 66db. I then disconnected the RSW-12 and connected the el-cheapo sub and played the same sine wave (with all settings being untouched) the results were 82db. Any thoughts here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Steve, not what I said in an email to you. "his techs felt that I had just been unlucky so far and should just hook it up and not worry. " What I said.....""Our tech says he could not say for sure where the problem is or if whatwas suggested had a direct baring on the possible problem, he had noanswer.The first amp/control you were shipped was a repair unit.What you received this time was brand new amp and control.The first preamp control shipped may have been the problem and accordingto tech, use it (the sub with new amp and control)You should be fine now." Pull the control panel and disconnect the lead from the vol control on the preamp board, it's the one with 3 wires. Now make sure you turn the gain in the HK down all the way before sending a signal to the sub. With the vol control disconnected, the sub will operate at full vol. Let me know what happens. The only thing not new in this sub is the passive vol control ( rare for this to be a problem) and the cabinet it self.........let me know DC spikes should be blocked in the sub. There is a cap internal that filters DC from the internal amp. It's a 25 volt cap and have a hard time seeing more than 25 v coming from a transit, but never say never. If the amp/control panel are out again, it may verywell be the HK spike you suggested to me in an email. Hard to say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Steve, not what I said in an email to you. "his techs felt that I had just been unlucky so far and should just hook it up and not worry. " What I said.....""Our tech says he could not say for sure where the problem is or if what was suggested had a direct baring on the possible problem, he had no answer. The first amp/control you were shipped was a repair unit. What you received this time was brand new amp and control. The first preamp control shipped may have been the problem and according to tech, use it (the sub with new amp and control) You should be fine now." Pull the control panel and disconnect the lead from the vol control on the preamp board, it's the one with 3 wires. Now make sure you turn the gain in the HK down all the way before sending a signal to the sub. With the vol control disconnected, the sub will operate at full vol. Let me know what happens. The only thing not new in this sub is the passive vol control ( rare for this to be a problem) and the cabinet it self.........let me know DC spikes should be blocked in the sub. There is a cap internal that filters DC from the internal amp. It's a 25 volt cap and have a hard time seeing more than 25 v coming from a transit, but never say never. If the amp/control panel are out again, it may verywell be the HK spike you suggested to me in an email. Hard to say for sure. Sorry Steve, I did not intend to mis-quote what you said. I was simply relating my understanding from our conversations. The following quote says, to me, that I was simply unlucky with the first amp and subsequent rebuilt one and that I should be fine using this new one. "The first preamp control shipped may have been the problem and according to tech, use it (the sub with new amp and control) You should be fine now." Again I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I just want this thing to work and to not have to be constantly worried about it so that I can enjoy my system. I found this new problem (low volume) after getting home from work on friday and since I could not contact you (you were already gone for the weekend) I thought I might find somebody here with some info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 no problem Steve, I was just pointing out what was said as a lot read this forum and I wanted to explain what we suggested. We will try and figure this out. Not always an easy task without having everything related together in one place. Like asking the auto dealer to figure somethign out without having the auto there to test. I took my car in the last day of warranty, but the tech found nothing wrong with my auto tranny, but he does not drive the car everyday and at that moment he found no problem. I am still not certian it's right...but I will see. Let me know what happens if you disconnect the vol control, if there is a problem with the control the sub will operate as if the vol was at max. rare to have a problem with the control, but never say never. I will try to keep an eye on this thread, but at the moment I have my projector in my lap all apart cleaning the color wheel and lens......it was dirty big time, film all over it. The things you have to put up with when wanting a 106" screen. It should result in a "new" picture.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Wow!!! Tech support on a weekend. Once again Klipsch goes the extra mile. I've never had a malfuntion on anything from Klipsch including my PC speakers, but it's good to know that help is there when needed. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Wow!!! Tech support on a weekend. Once again Klipsch goes the extra mile. I've never had a malfuntion on anything from Klipsch including my PC speakers, but it's good to know that help is there when needed. Bill Yeah they have been great!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Let me know what happens if you disconnect the vol control, if there is a problem with the control the sub will operate as if the vol was at max. rare to have a problem with the control, but never say never. Ok this makes no sense to me but here are the results. Same 70hz sine wave signal as before AVR volume @ appx. 25% RSW-12 gain at 100% = 91db Volume control disconnected = 80db If the volume control disconnected should result in max output why is the subs ouput in this configuration so much lower than with it connected and the volume control all the way up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Wow!!! Tech support on a weekend. Once again Klipsch goes the extra mile. I've never had a malfuntion on anything from Klipsch including my PC speakers, but it's good to know that help is there when needed. Bill I don't think it's in the job description, but we do what we can. I honestly sent it to Steve thinking he'd pick up on it Monday at work. He's my hero! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Let me know what happens if you disconnect the vol control, if there is a problem with the control the sub will operate as if the vol was at max. rare to have a problem with the control, but never say never. Ok this makes no sense to me but here are the results. Same 70hz sine wave signal as before AVR volume @ appx. 25% RSW-12 gain at 100% = 91db Volume control disconnected = 80db If the volume control disconnected should result in max output why is the subs ouput in this configuration so much lower than with it connected and the volume control all the way up? I will check into this Monday morning and get back to you on that, I should have said "should" not "will", I know for sure this happns with the RW subs and they use the same vol as the RSW. I don't have the schematics here to double check this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sredmyer Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Let me know what happens if you disconnect the vol control, if there is a problem with the control the sub will operate as if the vol was at max. rare to have a problem with the control, but never say never. Ok this makes no sense to me but here are the results. Same 70hz sine wave signal as before AVR volume @ appx. 25% RSW-12 gain at 100% = 91db Volume control disconnected = 80db If the volume control disconnected should result in max output why is the subs ouput in this configuration so much lower than with it connected and the volume control all the way up? I will check into this Monday morning and get back to you on that, I should have said "should" not "will", I know for sure this happns with the RW subs and they use the same vol as the RSW. I don't have the schematics here to double check this Steve, In the interest of understanding the true nature of the problems I am having with this sub (or maybe my system) I would be willing to bring the sub up to indy and let you guys look at it. Of course this would not solve anything if the issue is not with the sub but with my system but I am working that front to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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