Khorns in drop ceiling basement

[profsbg]

I have a basement room about 24 x 14 x 7'2". The ceiling is mostly

a drop down with very absorbing tiles. Running along the long wall and

coming about 3.5 ' into the room is enclosed and drywalled main

ducting, which drops the ceiling further down to 6'8" ( the remainding

width of 14 - 3.5 = 10.5' has the tiled drop ceiling at 7'2").

I have some Chorus II along the long wall with tiles 7'2" above and

listen to them very near field, about 7 ' back (spaced almost like

equilateral triangle). I found that moving my seating back under the

enclosed ducting sounds worsens the sound in various ways. I recently

found that removing some of the tiles makes the sound more alive and

much more preferable to me, introducing some slight reverb and

diffusion perhaps (from the joists above the drop down?). The rest of

the room is fairly dead with carpeting on the floor and window shades

and wall hangings and furniture.I would like to purchase some

Khorns and put them under the enclosed ducting. On that long wall, I

can space them out about 17' of the 24'. I will have to build false

corners due to the presence of doors and hallways in the corners. I can

move the false corners forward a bit so that the the front of the

Khorns would be more flush with the edge of the enclosed ducting. In

any case, the Khorns would be situated so that they would mostly be

directly incident on the 7'2" tile ceiling

I have a few questions

1. What

experience is there with Khorns with roughly 7' drop ceiling? This

seems a lot less than the 8.5' recommended by Klipsch

2. Is the 3.5' wide further drop down due to ducting

a problem if Khorns are under it? There is not much I can do about this

ceiling structure

3. My experience with removing a few of the ceiling

tiles is really positive. I read here about Berger's Space Coupler

which I could replace some or all of the ceiling tiles with (they are

about $200 for each 2'x2'x3" coupler unit, but I may be able to diy a

fascimile if I need a lot of them). This seems like an interesting idea

as it can add in some sense the space above the drop down extending the

ceiling to about 8'4" (although there are the floor joists and some but

not a lot of pipes and ducting running between the joists). It also

adds some diffusion from the grating. Does anyone have experience with

such an idea? It seems like this problem of low ceiling height in

basement rooms with drop down ceilings and which cannot be remodelled

would come up a lot

Thanks

<><><>

[sheltie dave]

You have almost a carbon copy of my basement, except I currently have KHorns and Fortes in various parts of the basement.

I personally feel money spent on components FIRST is a better investment than pursuing sound treatments, but that is me. No matter how much money I spend to improve the sound field, it still is a near field environment. In a smaller room, average components and great sound treatment yield average sound. Great components, minor sound treatment, and judicious volume control can yield great sound. And as one of my Cerwin Vega friends always proves, crappy components and no volume control yield horrendous sound![]

With the KHorns, you definitely will soon find the two to three spots where the drop ceiling frame is not properly riveted. There may also be a few other metal to metal sound shorts that may need some rubber, or other insulation, installed to quiet matters. With five to fifteen watts, your pulse will be pounding in your alcove!

What will you be using with the Khorns?

[Parrot]

In my previous home I had Khorns in the basement with a fairly low ceiling, probably about the same as yours. It wasn't to my liking but I had to make do with what was available and the other dimensions made it worthwhile. In other words, maybe 4 times the floor space for a foot lower ceiling!

I don't understand all of what you're saying about replacing ceiling tiles with something else, but anything you can do for more height will be a big big plus and well worth the effort.

[profsbg]

<>At this point I have an Apple Powerbook (with lossless encoding) to

a Lavry DA10 Dac which also has a decent preamp and volume control

network. Right now I use it to drive Wright 3.5 monoblocks or

Charlize t-amp. I am also waiting on a tube preamp (actually a

headphone amp with preamp capability Singlepower MPX3). So there are

various combos and I am playing around with them and the Chorus II. I

also have some CD player and other gear, but the above is what I use. I

am pretty satisfied with it at the moment, although I might get one of

the JM Merlin preamp if the Singlepower doesnt work out.

The

problem I have is the room seems so dead to me, not

vibration or reflection or other serious issues at least that seem

obvious to me. I could try removing some of the area carpet but the tile

floor that they cover is cold. That is why I removed some of the

ceiling tiles to experiment with, just a few along the reflected paths

from the speakers to my sitting position. I was really surprised how it

appeared to improve things. But I need something to replace them with.

And maybe get further improvement. Since going from the Chorus II

(which I would move upstairs to a family living room with HT where I

currently have Kg4.5's) to Khorn is big step, I am trying to get a feel

if others had this problem and a solution. Somehow my perceived

deadness of the room really bothered me, I have heard of this complaint

before with absorbing drop ceiling. I recognize there are two

factors here : the ceiling height and the absorbing tiles.I wasnt sure

how all of this affected the Khorn or why it needed the ceiling height

maybe compared to other speakers.

The

diffraction gratings (which I would use as direct replacement for some

of the drop ceiling tiles) are discussed in

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/permalink/795474/776905/ShowThread.aspx#776905.

I would be willing I think to manufacture myself probably a whole

ceiling of them to replace the drop ceiling if necessary as I am not

worried about sound isolation and the claim seems to be that one cannot

have too many (although their may be diminishing returns).

[gaspr]

I don't know if anyone here has had hands on experience with the
spacecouplers. From what I have been able to gather,
they work best when coupling a listening or studio area to a larger
area. This helps to create a longer and more pleasing
semi-reveberant tail to the sound. I do think that you are on the
right track. Might be somewhat expensive and or time consuming
(if you make your own) to do your whole ceiling with
couplers. Maybe you could do a smaller area with couplers and
replace some or all of the remaining ceiling tiles with something less
absorptive? The general advice seems to be that you can't have to
much diffusion in your listening room. Good luck and let us know how
things work out for you.

[colterphoto1]

perhaps a simple solution that would give varying degrees of reflection would be to simply replace some of the tiles (vinyl covered fibreglass?) with the composite heavier tiles or alternate with 1/2" plywood panels... This might be preferable to seeing 'through' the gridwork to the exposed beams, give more mass to the system to prevent vibration, and enhance the liveness that you seek.

M

[profsbg]

Thanks for the suggestions. Right now the visual aspect is secondary
to the sound, although obviously I would like something that has some
hiding capability. It does seem like a huge amount of work to do the
whole ceiling in these couplers. I think I will experiment with
buying/manufacturing a few of them, and mixing them with either the
existing tiles or some standard but heavier more reflecting ones. I was
also thinking about trying some of the fluorescent light grids which
are plastic and have a narrower grid. There would not be as much
diffusion from the grid but perhaps would still benefit from the
effective increase in ceiling height and reflection off of the above
floor and joists.

I am still curious why the Khorn seems to require more ceiling
height (or if they really do): room volume, room modes,?

<>

[gaspr]

My guess as to why khorns sound better in larger rooms is that they
have a chance to really open up. Being 100% horn loaded, and
being in a 1/8 space (corner), they are able to couple to and
control a huge amount of air. Really gives them a "live",
room filling sound. Even though they are not at there best in
smaller rooms, they are still pretty impressive.

Not sure
if ceiling height or simply room volume is more important. You
might want to pay attention to the first reflection points on your low
ceiling and treat these areas somehow. Probably best to use
diffusion if possible, absorbtion if necessary.

Again, good luck and welcome to the forum!

[colterphoto1]

too large of a room is also detrimental to Khorn listenability because the listener has to sit either out of the sweet spot, in the sweetspot but with furniture awkwardly placed, or manufacture false corners.

My 15x22 with Khorns on the long wall seems just about right. I can sit directly in the cross between the speakers and be 4' from the back wall.

Most Khorn rooms I have visited would have you sitting in FRONT of the coffee table to get best soundstage because the room was too deep for it's width.