What's the height of the Heresy III?

[seasterl]

What I don't understand is, if all you were looking for was an unbiased opinion, why you had to mention anything about this forum at all over at Audio Asylum. I do think it was offensive.

I'm new around here but I've spent a fair amount of time poking around the place and I find absolutely no difference in the validity of opinions here and at the Asylum. Well, that's not true. At least when you post a question about Klipsch over here you're going to hear from people... multitudes of them!-- who have owned and lived with the speakers. At the Asylum you're more likely to hear from people who are only familiar with Klipsch based on a one-hour demo in a store somewhere. Is one opinion more valid than the other? Inasmuch as you know nothing about the likes and dislikes of the nameless/faceless inmates, I'll take the opinions as expressed in this forum any day and twice on Sunday. People who have found a reason to invest their money with another speaker brand are not necessarily more objective about their decision than a Klipsch owner.

The other difference between this place and the Asylum is the congenial nature of these forums. In that regard, the Asylum is aptly named.

To answer your question, I did hear a pair of Heresys years ago that had the reticent midrange that you seem aware of. That was back in the very early 80s and from what I gather, newer models are improved. Can't say for sure, though, as I haven't heard one in years. JP

JP: I can see that I'll be defending my remarks on the other forum all over again. Step back and think about it. If you want to buy a Ford truck and want an unbiased opinion, do you go to a Ford dealership to ask for opinions? No. But you go elsewhere where there are many different types of trucks and get a more generalized opinion. (Why do you consider this bad thinking before spending money?) My inquiry on another forum was that simple of an approach, really. More than one person feels that the predominant genre of music enjoyed by Klipsch is rock music (if not an overwhelming majority!), and yet oftentimes the characteristic that is touted the most is how loud they'll play and the use of a big amp (mid-fi mindset). Still, I did discover a minority of passionate music lovers here that enjoy some nice jazz and blues with SET amps on a Khorn or La Scala, and how well music is resolved and the accuracy of the performance (hifi mindset). The camp and mindset I'm coming from is the latter of these two classes, albeit with cone drivers instead of horns. However, I want to taste the rock setup, which I why I'm buying them. BTW, when I looked for opinions on the AA, most of the responses were negative. My dealer said Klipsch was colored, and another friend in the business I respect said they were colored, but I'm not listening to them or the negative comments on AA regarding Klipsch, and instead buying some for myself. Do I deserve credit for that? BTW, when you read the title of this thread, were you going to post the answer.

[John Potis]

You don't have to defend your doing your homework, you were quite right to do so. My points were two:

1) You didn't have to comment on this forum over there. That was bad form, in my opinion.

2) If you want to know about Ford trucks, why do you think you'll get more objective information from a Chevy owner? First, he hasn't lived with a Ford in order to understand why Ford owners love them. Second, he has to justify in his own mind his purchase of the Chevy. Unless he really regrets his purchase, he'll probably recommend the Chevy to you just to make himself feel good and because it's the only truck he has real experience with.

Klipsch speakers may well be colored. I haven't enough meaningful experience with them to know. But horn speakers have virtues that other less colored speakers do not. And if someone hears the Klipsch speakers in a showroom and, due to any amount of variables, doesn't like what he's hearing and decides to pass on them, he'll never get to understand what it is that Klipsch fans love so much.

As a personal aside, I can tell you that I've been wondering aloud for years now if the high end isn't moving in the wrong direction in speaker design. Levels of coloration are diminishing greatly, frequency response curves are, in some cases, ruler flat. In some cases levels of detail go beyond what we really may want to be hearing off our CDs and LPs-- certainly capable of more detail than what we hear from the audience. In short, I don't find most of today's speakers more musically enjoyable than speakers from the past. In fact, I've had several of these types of uber-speakers under my roof and I can tell you that some of them were down-right unenjoyable. Not only was my listening enjoyment not enhanced, I flat out didn't want to play music when some of these speakers were in the room.

In my opinion, the high end may be moving down the wrong path and maybe it's time to reconsider what is important in speaker design. Like you, I've recently ordered a pair of Klipsch speakers-- sight unheard-- and I'm waiting to hear them for the first time. I'm waiting on a pair if LaScala IIs. Am I expecting a highly detailed speaker? Nope. Ruler flat FR? Nope. Deep subterranean bass? No. But what I'm expecting is a level of dynamic expression that I'm starting to fear is missing from most other speakers. Know that question we like to ask; when you walk by a room where music is playing, how do you know if it's live? Well, I don't think it has anything to do with frequency response! The room can be and often is awful as compared to a good concert hall. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with imaging or soundstaging-- you're listening through a doorway. But what I think is the greatest clue is dynamics. Micro dynamics, in particular. I'm starting to think, or at least wonder, if dynamics are not the key to music sounding real in the home. Maybe even without expressing it this way, I wonder if this is what Klipsch owners hear and what non-Klipsch owners don't understand about the brand.

Bet you didn't think I was ever going to get back on track, did you! As for your question about my posting an answer, I'm not sure I understand the question.

JP

[seasterl]

JP: Your post was brilliant. Now I'm on the same frequency as you are and couldn't agree more. Okay, perhaps my approach on the other forum was off-color (no pun intended). Regarding the Chevy analogy, the point was hoping that a larger base of users of many different brands, not just an association of those preferring a singular sound. Although it wasn't the intentions of this thread (which simply inquired about the height of the H3 so I can order custom stands), posts like your last one has significantly deepened my respect for this forum in that there are some that are after realistic, dynamic sound.

The essense of live music and the ability to reproduce it at home are two different things. Wanting to spend more time sitting behind some horns is my first step to experience some micro dynamics that make a live performance more believable. I think that oftentimes the price that listeners pay is that the music tends to be too forward for extended listening sessions, and they complain about a headache. While there may be a lot of truth to this, I believe it has more to do with component matching (esp. with the right amp) and room damping, as well as the music that is played. A clean tube amp (whether PP triode or SET) in a properly damped room would change a lot of minds out there, so this is my approach coming out of the gate.

Speaking of microdynamics, this pertains to the midrange resolution I was commenting on before. I'm banking on this being the reason the Heritage line is well-loved. Admittedly curt or off-color, which I apologize, I mentioned what I did on the other forum out of my frustration (with this forum) because I just couldn't get anyone to say it what you just said in your last post. I think perhaps a lot of folk love the horn sound but maybe they don't know why they love it. I suppose it's not fair to generalize they way I did despite frustration. When you make a decision to spend the money, you want everyone to agree with your choice for all the same reasons. It's hard not to be envious of you to purchase the La Scalla II. I really wanted to do the same, but chose the H3 for its price, size, beauty, and that it has at least two horn drivers.

[John Potis]

>>>>> JP: Your post was brilliant.

Alright. Consider yourself completely redeemed. :-)

Seriously, I'm glad you found value in my post. I should point out that I haven't had a decent demo of Klipsch speakers in years. I'm not sure if you read about my attempt ( http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/bricks/mortar.html ) and I don't mean to put words into the mouths of others as I'm basing a lot on assumptions. Maybe we'll yet hear from others on the subject.

I've used a few back loaded horns now and while some of them have problems (Lowthers), what they get right, is pretty hard to ignore. After spending a little time with the Lamhorn 1.8 with AER driver ($8500) and being blown away by some aspects of its performance, I started wondering about other horns and I stumbled into the Stereophile review by Sam Tellig of the LaScalla IIs, which, frankly, surprised me. The Lamhorns are different, but very similar to the Horning Perikles (one of two speakers I used in the dedicated listening rooms-- the other being the Tidal Pianos) and I couldn't justify the expense. So I'm looking for something that will energize the family room system like the Lamhorns did the listening room. When I read Tellig's comments about the smooth and sweet, if somewhat reticent treble, I was pretty sure I was onto something that could be exciting to listen to without being fatiguing.

In the Family room I'm using a pair of Ohm Walsh 4s which have been upgraded with the Walsh 5mkII drivers. These, too, have a very musically friendly personality and are not the last word in some HIFI criteria, but are musical as hell and just enjoyable to listen to. But what these omnis do is drop the soundstage behind the speaker-- they make the rear wall vanish. What I want to try is something that projects out into the room, like the Lamhorns did. Something that just energizes the room.

Incidentally, with the exception of bass, the Lamhorns do all the audiophile things superbly and not to the point where they distract from the music. In some ways they are indeed uber-speakers. Buy they add the dynamic snap that so many speakers are missing. If the LaScalas get me the lion's share of those goodies with the same level of dynamic finesse, I know I'll be very pleased.

And I won't pretend that I love the whole history behind the speaker.

JP

[seasterl]

Well, Sam Tellig's review of the LS2 is also part of my reason for buying into the Klipsch horn-based speaker even though the H3 uses different horns. I'm hoping to get the same "house sound" as the LS2 that Sam favored. (I still can't believe he added the extra tweeters, though!) With my dedicated listening room completed, I am also wanting to liven my family (home theater) room. I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that another reason I'm going with the brighter sound of Klipsch is to bring my psychoacoustic image plane more forward so that it lies in the same plane as our TV. My Silverlines are so laid back the characters on the TV sound as if they're 6 feet behind the TV. While this sound is very non-fatigueing and enjoyable for LPs, etc. for extended sessions, it's just not appropriate for my application.

I'm unfamiliar with the other designed you mentioned, but we're in the same boat as far as taking a chance to accomplish similar goals. I am expecting mine in another 4 weeks. When do you expect your LS2?

[John Potis]

Yes, I'm extremely familiar with the Silverline sound. I reviewed two iterations of the Sonatina, two iterations of the Sonota and the Bolero and I've used several of the smaller speakers. I heard (and liked) the La Folia. But the Sinhonia was just too much speaker to consider wrestling in for a review. But Alan Yun is a guy who designs by ear, measurements be damned. Have you looked at the uppermidrange dip he designs into his speakers? It might make some cringe but he produces very smooth and musically enjoyable speakers. And yes, they are the opposite of forward.

Lamhorns: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/norvinz/norvinz.html

Hornings: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/silvertone2/followup.html

Tidal Pianos http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tidal/piano.html

With what are you going to power your Heresys?

I don't have an ETA on my speakers yet. :-(

[Mike Lindsey]

While in Seattle, I just spent some time with a Forum member who has B&W 800's, Quad ESL's and Klipschorns all in the same room, and thought the Khorns just blew everything else away. I thought the B&W's imaged much better and sounded fantastic to boot, but imho couldn't compare to the Khorns. There is just a presence to Khorns that is unmatched imo.

Having said that, you need to come by and hear my modded La Scala's. If you're looking for dynamics and realism, I've got it in spades.

Mike

[John Potis]

I'd love to, Mike. But Maryland to Florida and back would be one heck of a day trip! :-)

In what way are yours modded?

JP

[seasterl]

While in Seattle, I just spent some time with a Forum member who has B&W 800's, Quad ESL's and Klipschorns all in the same room, and thought the Khorns just blew everything else away. I thought the B&W's imaged much better and sounded fantastic to boot, but imho couldn't compare to the Khorns. There is just a presence to Khorns that is unmatched imo.

Having said that, you need to come by and hear my modded La Scala's. If you're looking for dynamics and realism, I've got it in spades.

Mike

Mike: I DO need to come by to see you. I'm afraid that if I do hear your sound, it's going to get crazy in my home because I won't be able to stop thinking about it and my wife would shoot me (with a rifle I'm try to sell!) if I sell these and put more speakers in our small HT room.

JP: I've read your reviews of the Silverlines. I started with my SR17, then upgraded the drivers to those currently offered in their SR17.5, then I got the Sonata III and loved them. I sold them to a local friend so I could move up to the 250-pound Sinfonia. I truly love these Sinfonia, but not to digress too much, I need something more alive for this other room. I'll start off powering the H3 with a Marantz Reference Series SM17SA stereo SS amp. It's the most tube-like (more KT88-like) SS amp I've heard. The entire Marantz Reference Series of components is sort of hit and miss. I collected all of them (the 17 series, that is) as a second system. The models that really shine for their intended purpose are the DR17 HDCD/CD recorder/player and the SM17SA amp. The PM17SA integrated amp, ST17 tuner, and CD17Mk2 CD player are just average. The DV18Mk2 DVD player is good with sound and picture, but newer formats have quickly dated it, making it for bedroom TV use only. If I don't achieve good enough sound with the Marantz SM17SA amp with the H3 speakers, then I'll swap in a Rogue Atlas custom triode EL34 amp to see how it mates. If it needs more tonal shift, I look for a SET amp. However, I think any KT88 or EL34 in triode PP will probably work magic with the H3. My friend wants to bring his Berning OTL amp over for to see how it sounds with the H3, so depending on that audition, I may even look for a preowned Berning (even the Berning Micro). I do plan to do more room damping, too.

Has anyone heard anything from the Heritage series being drivng by an OTL amp?

I never knew this before until I became a headphone nut, but the human ear have a very interesting sensitivity curve for various frequencies. This curve shifts depending on the decibel level. Headphone manufacturers are not always concerned about achieving a flat response, because the human ear will not perceive it as a flat response (because its sensitivity is not flat,... far from it). It's the same with loudspeakers. This is part of the reason Alan Yun tunes by hear instead of by specs. He does other tricks that I still cannot figure out the reasons behind them, but that's the difference between engineering thinking and a designer's thought processes. (BTW, I love how Alan creates varying voicings among his models.)

[John Potis]

Well, good luck with the Marantz stuff but count me a little envious of the Rogue stuff. I gots to hear me some of that at some point. From what I understand, it's a great company. I shouldn't say too much but Chip Stern has some of it in now and he's going ga-ga over it. Won't stop telling me about it. What I love about Rogue is their down-to-earth pricing. How he puts that stuff together for cheaper than some of the Chinese stuff earns my respect. And I've noticed that manufactures of far more expensive stuff choose to team up and use his products at shows. That tells me a lot, too. Sometimes just knowing that you have quality people standing behind your gear can add to the experience. I was just looking over their website the other night.

JP

[seasterl]

Mark O'Brien represents Rogue Audio so well. I think they're some of the best in the business and are a true class act. I've owned their Magnum M120 monoblocks in the past, but use their Magnum 99 preamp and modified Atlas amp for my Sinfonia. If you want to try something, either get Mark to do a custom Atlas for you or pick up a preowned Stereo 90 on the 'gon. The Stereo 90 in triode, according to Mark, is some of the best sound they've ever created.

[Mike Lindsey]

While in Seattle, I just spent some time with a Forum member who has B&W 800's, Quad ESL's and Klipschorns all in the same room, and thought the Khorns just blew everything else away. I thought the B&W's imaged much better and sounded fantastic to boot, but imho couldn't compare to the Khorns. There is just a presence to Khorns that is unmatched imo.

Having said that, you need to come by and hear my modded La Scala's. If you're looking for dynamics and realism, I've got it in spades.

Mike

Mike: I DO need to come by to see you. I'm afraid that if I do hear your sound, it's going to get crazy in my home because I won't be able to stop thinking about it and my wife would shoot me (with a rifle I'm try to sell!) if I sell these and put more speakers in our small HT room.

Not so sure about that, but I think you will definitely appreciate the dynamics these speakers produce. Bring your favorite albums, cd's, sacd's and dvd-audio's, and we'll spin 'em for awhile. []

Mike