SUB-12 connection to receiver with no sub pre-OUT jacks

[BP_redbear]

Hello.

I am considering my first purchase of a subwoofer (probably SUB-12), and other first-purchases of Klipsch products. I have viewed the on-line manual for Klipsch's SUB-12, and see how to use the Hi-Level Connection configuration.

My question basically is: "Is there any real, or noticeable, difference in output level or sound quality between the Hi-Level connection method instead of using the LFE Out from the amp?" (By the way, my receiver has no LFE jacks, only Surround pre-out and Center pre-out).

My other purchases potentially are a set of F-3, a C-3, a set of S-3, (and a SUB-12). Or, possibly some of the -2 components of the Synergy Series (F-2, C-2, S-2). My receiver is rated at 120W per channel Mains in stereo mode, and 80W per- when in Surround Mode (80W mains, 80W Center and 20W surround x2).

Any suggestions and/or ideas will be appreciated. I have not owned a sub before, and also have never had a center or surrounds, even though I have owned my Fisher RS-737 receiver for approx 15 years.

The receiver also has a B-Channel main speaker connection, which I plan to use my set of Sound Dynamics 500 Concert Monitor speakers. I just had the 10 in. woofers rebuilt in them, professionally, and need to have at least one of the tweeters rebuilt, also. (The SD 500s are a 2-way speaker made in the late 80's, I believe. I have owned these also for as long as the receiver. I recall their sound as loud and clear. It has been about 5 years since the receiver has been used, along with the SD500s.)

My idea is to use the F-3 and SUB-12 on A-Channel and the Sound Dynamics 500 on B-Channel when listening to music, and to probably turn off the B-Channel during DVD and movies, TV in surround mode, using 'just' the F-3, C-3, S-3 and SUB-12. I know that the end of this is getting off the powered sub subjectof this forum.

Thanks

[wuzzzer]

There really isn't going to be a huge difference in sound quality using the high level or level inputs on the sub. However, one of the advantages of an LFE or sub output on a receiver is that it allows the sub to amplify the bass frequencies and the receiver to do the rest. Since low bass signals use up a lot of power it results in a little more headroom for midrange and treble amplificaiton.

Is there a reason why you want to use the receiver you have? If you're potentially considering spending the money on a complete Synergy 3 series setup I think it would be a smart move to spend a little extra on a new receiver.

[BP_redbear]

Only because it is the receiver that I have, it works, and I currently have no working speakers. The receiver doesn't really have a lot of use on it for its age, and because a set of F-3 speakers and a sub will really set our budget back. After thinking about it, I will probably take it in steps. Not exactly 'stuck' on it, though...however, the fact is that I have a working receiver, and no speakers. Best Buy just raised the prices on most Klipsch speakers over the weekend. [] I have been a click away since Friday from ordering a set of F-3 and a Sub-12, wanting to be SURE that the Synergy 3 is the best for me.

1. F-3 set

2. Sub-12 or -10

3. New Receiver

4. C-3 Center

5. S-3 Surrounds...Not necessarily in that order...

Maybe I will get a set of F-3 mains, then save for a new receiver, THEN build up the speaker kit around them. All suggestions are appreciated.

[DrWho]

When working on a budget, the best thing you can do is make a plan for the long term and make purchases only towards that goal. There is nothing wrong with building up a system slowly - in fact, it's probably more fun that way because you end up more acquainted with the benefits of each additional upgrade.

That said, how large is your room? If your room is smaller, you might find that you enjoy the F2 lineup more. I personally think it's voiced better and more involving - the only thing you might be missing out are some of the extra dynamic capabilities of the larger F3's.

As far as the sub, I would without a doubt go with the Sub12 over the Sub10. The difference is night and day and absolutely worth the price difference.

It looks like you've got a good upgrade path laid out. I would probably start with the mains and then decide if you need a new receiver based on how they sound with your old receiver. If they sound bad, go with a new receiver. If you think they sound good, then you might wanna try out the Sub12 driven off the speaker level inputs. Normally I would lean towards the receiver first, but the HD market is in flux right now and prices are bound to go down here in the near future...and a dominant format should win out too.

Hope this helps.

[BP_redbear]

Absolutely helpful suggestions from both members.

Our livingroom is approximately 12 or 13 by 16 or 17 feet. Point well taken about the 2-series vs. the 3-series, and of the sub-12 vs. the sub-10. My thoughts on going with the F-3 over the F-2 is because of the rating of 150W F-3 against 100W F-2 with my receiver stating 120W each main. The F-2 may do fine, however I need peace of mind that I will not damage anything by putting too much wattage to the F-2. Actually, I was initially planning on the F-2, S-2, C-2 set. Also, seeing the moderately better sensitivity ratings of the 3 series, has me leaning there.

Also, thinking that the 8 in. woofers of the F-3 may be a little closer in sound sonically with the 10in. woofers of the Sound Dynamics if I have all four in use at a time.

I will definitely purchase a sub-12 as opposed to a -10.

I will certainly listen closely to the floorstanders with my current receiver. Off sub topic here, but would it be bad to have a set consisting of F-3, C-2, S-2 and SUB-12? Is it best to stick with either all 3's or all 2's?

Thanks people!

[DrWho]

You might consider F3, C3, and S2, but don't skimp out on the center channel. In fact, about 70% of your movie content will be coming through it. Since a lot of sound pans across the front, you want to make sure you timbre match as closely as possible.

[BP_redbear]

I have just recently purchased a new pair of Klipsch F-3 (Sept. 24), and to my ears, they sound very good with my receiver.

I believe that my plan is to save for a bit then purchase a Sub-12, a C-3, and probably a set of S-2 speakers.

Thanks for the input.

[sivadselim]

If you are connecting a DVD player to your receiver via a 2-channel L/R analog connection, the LFE channel is completely dropped, anyway, so it's a non-issue.

When a DVD player is connected via a digital connection to a modern AV receiver which is, in turn, connected to a subwoofer via a speaker-level connection, the AV receiver is set up as having no subwoofer and the LFE channel is then properly rerouted by the receiver to the subwoofer/front speakers via the high-level front speaker outputs. This is one of the capabilities of modern AV receivers. But this is rarely the way someone would connect a subwoofer to a modern AV receiver as the receivers have digital crossover capabilities and a subwoofer output specifically there for connecting a subwoofer.

[BP_redbear]

On Saturday, Oct. 6, I purchased a Klipsch sub-12 to go with my Klipsch F-3 set. As good as the F-3 speakers are, I was missing the deep bass that the Sub-12 fills quite superbly! Wow.

Mostly, I will be listening to music, and occasionally a DVD, or TV. I will be connecting my DVD to the receiver via 2-channel L/R cable.

With a CD in, and the receiver volume just below 1/2, and the gain on the Sub-12 is set at about 1/2, it puts out tremendous bass. I set the lowpass control at about 70. Then, I turned the gain down just a bit. Lovin' it so far.

BP

[DrWho]

You would probably get better sound from your DVD Player if you hooked up the digital output - only because the receiver ends up just converting it back to digital anyway.

I dunno if I'm quite understanding your crossover settings, but usually you want to try to avoid cascading crossovers (since your receiver has a crossover inside it too). Sometimes you might try using the crossover on the sub to help steepen the crossover slopes or to help EQ down the top end of its passband, but usually it's best to just set the crossover on the sub as high as possible and let the receiver do its magic.

It's not a big deal, but it might be worth messing around with a bit - every system is different. That Sub-12 sure is an impressive sub [Y]

[BP_redbear]

I thought that if I set the sub's lowpass crossover too high, (eg 150Hz), that I would be robbing the F-3 of some bass that would be better sounding from them.

Suggestions and opinions are considered and appreciated, and I will continue to enjoy adjusting the lowpass and gain to find some optimal settings.

Indeed the Sub-12 is impressive! I peeked beneath it during Metallica's 'To Live is to Die', and WOW, the woofer thumping in and out at tremendous speed.

[DrWho]

When you say "sub's crossover" are you talking about the crossover settings on the receiver or the crossover dial on the back of the sub?

[BP_redbear]

I was referring to the dial on the back of the sub.

[sivadselim]

I was referring to the dial on the back of the sub.

That is not really a continuously variable crossover control. It is simply an adjustable low-pass filter. The subwoofer has fixed high-pass filter setting (not sure what the setting may be, it's usually ~ 80 to 100Hz) that is applied to it's speaker level outputs. So, the low-end of the frequencies that are sent to speakers that are attached to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs is fixed no matter where the "crossover knob" is set. The "crossover knob" (which is really just an adjustable low-pass filter) is used to "tune" the subwoofer as so desired to that fixed high-pass filter setting.

[BP_redbear]

LOW PASS (LP) CROSSOVER The crossover allows the user to select the upper-frequency

cutoff of the subwoofer. The frequency is selectable from 40-120Hz. Frequencies above the set

level are filtered out, allowing you to blend the subwoofers output with that of your main speakers.

Hmm, now I'm really confused. So the main speakers are unaffected in any way by the setting of the dial on the sub?

Seems like I recall reading something in a Klipsch literature that mentioned passing any frequency above 100Hz, but then the manual describes the Lowpass Crossover as the above definition from the Sub-12 manual.

[wuzzzer]

If you look in the manual you will see that it states:

"HIGH LEVEL OUT - This passes the "HIGH LEVEL IN" signal out to your left and right speakers with frequencies below 100Hz removed."

So if you're using the high level in/out only material from 100Hz on up is being sent to your mains. If you're using a crossover setting below 100Hz you'll end up with a 'hole' in the sound from 100Hz down to whatever crossover setting you're using.

[BP_redbear]

I do recall reading that in the manual, also.

I believe that I understand now...

When using the High Level connections, the main speakers are going to receive all sounds above 100Hz, and the sub will play any sound that is below the setting on its dial, and will play frequencies up to its max of 120Hz, if the dial is set there?

So then, maybe it's like Dr. Who said earlier, I should set the dial on the sub as high as it will go (at least a min of 100Hz - to avoid that hole - ), or somewhere between 100 and 120Hz. ?

[wuzzzer]

I wouldn't recommend going much above 100Hz (if at all) as it will make the subwoofer play frequencies that are high enough to be able to localize where the sound is coming from. It can also make the subwoofer emit what some describe as a boomy sound.

If you ever get a new receiver, you'll thank yourself.

[Tom Adams]

I wouldn't recommend going much above 100Hz (if at all) as it will make the subwoofer play frequencies that are high enough to be able to localize where the sound is coming from. It can also make the subwoofer emit what some describe as a boomy sound.

If you ever get a new receiver, you'll thank yourself.

Hey BP -

I know the principle focus of this thread is your Sub-12 (I have one BTW and feel it's an awesome Klipsch product - a real sleeper of a sub IMHO), however I'd like to offer a suggestion based on wuzzer's comment.

I recently needed to replace an older Denon AVR-3300 with something and stay within a budget. I bought a 'B' stock Denon AVR-2106 from Dakmart and I'm very impressed with what I got. Personally, I think it sounds much better with my Cornwalls than the older 3300. Probably just my imagination, but I'm fairly certain I'm hearing a difference. Anyhow.....it's just something for you to ponder since it would be a good way to get into a "modern" receiver for less than $300.

Good luck with building your system!

Tom

[sivadselim]

I believe that I understand now...

When using the High Level connections, the main speakers are going to receive all sounds above 100Hz, and the sub will play any sound that is below the setting on its dial, and will play frequencies up to its max of 120Hz, if the dial is set there?

That is correct.

However, if you are connectiing the subwoofer via a speaker-level connection, you can also simply connect the speakers to the receiver's speaker outputs instead of to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs if you wanted to send the speakers a non-high-passed, full-range signal. Then you would dial the sub in to meet the low-end frequency capability of the speakers instead of to the 100Hz fixed high-pass filter. Make sense?

So then, maybe it's like Dr. Who said earlier, I should set the dial on the sub as high as it will go (at least a min of 100Hz - to avoid that hole - ), or somewhere between 100 and 120Hz. ?[

He recommended setting it as high as it would go if you are using a receiver's digital crossover and its subwoofer output. This is not the situation in your case. If you connect the sub via a speaker-level connection, you WOULD use its "crossover" knob (which you now know is really just a variable low-pass filter) to adjust the subwoofer's output appropriately.