SUB-12 connection to receiver with no sub pre-OUT jacks

[sivadselim]

I wouldn't recommend going much above 100Hz (if at all) as it will make the subwoofer play frequencies that are high enough to be able to localize where the sound is coming from. It can also make the subwoofer emit what some describe as a boomy sound.

When using the speaker-level inputs and outputs, you would set the subwoofer's "crossover" knob (which is really just a variable low-pass filter) WHEREVER it was necessary to achieve the desired performance with your front speakers in your "room". The room's response around the 100Hz high-pass filter as well as listener preference would dictate this exact setting.

If the user desired a lower "crossover" (really a variable low-pass filter) setting, he could connect the speakers to the receiver's full-range speaker outputs as I describe above, instead of to the subwoofer's high-passed speaker-level outputs, which, depending upon the speaker's capabilities, should afford a much lower "crossover" (really a variable low-pass filter) setting.

[sivadselim]

If you ever get a new receiver, you'll thank yourself.

.............................however I'd like to offer a suggestion based on wuzzer's comment.

I recently needed to replace an older Denon AVR-3300 with something and stay within a budget. I bought a 'B' stock Denon AVR-2106 from Dakmart and I'm very impressed with what I got. Personally, I think it sounds much better with my Cornwalls than the older 3300. Probably just my imagination, but I'm fairly certain I'm hearing a difference. Anyhow.....it's just something for you to ponder since it would be a good way to get into a "modern" receiver for less than $300.

Yes, a truly DD5.1/DTS5.1 capable receiver would be quite an improvement over Pro-Logic, but not necessarily because of the bass-management capabilities. Depending upon your exact usage, BP, you CAN get very good performance from a subwoofer that is connected via speaker-level connections, sometimes even better than that provided by a "modern" AV receiver's bass-management, particularly for music. Not sure how you are connecting your DVD player to your current receiver, but if it is via a 2-channel analog connection, the LFE channel is being dropped, anyway.

[BP_redbear]

Actually, haven't connected the DVD as of yet. Strictly listening to music with it.

So, given my current receiver, which has A and B channel speaker connections, if I connected the F-3 speakers directly to the A-channel and the Sub-12 to the B-channel, then the F-3 would receive the full frequency range output, and the sub would then play all sounds at a frequency below where it's low-pass dial is set?

And, if I chose to not use the sub, I could simply turn off the B-channel?

[sivadselim]

So, given my current receiver, which has A and B channel speaker connections, if I connected the F-3 speakers directly to the A-channel and the Sub-12 to the B-channel, then the F-3 would receive the full frequency range output, and the sub would then play all sounds at a frequency below where it's low-pass dial is set?

And, if I chose to not use the sub, I could simply turn off the B-channel?

Yes and yes.

I'm not sure what receiver you have, but the "B" posts may represent a whole other pair of amplifiers or, more likely, the "B" posts simply represent a parallel set of binding posts off of the same 2 amps as the "A" binding posts. Either way, it doesn't matter, because the sub, being self-powered, presents no load to the amplifier that it's connected to.

[BP_redbear]

Am I thinking at all logically that my Klipsch F-3 speakers would sound better (or more complete) with a full-range signal when connected directly to the receiver's speaker channel output, and the sub connected to the B-channel speaker output of the recv.? It just seems to me that with all sound freq below 100Hz being removed from the signal out from the sub to the mains, that something is missing from the sound quality from the very good Klipsch F-3.

And, if I am correct, and connect my F-3 and Sub-12 as mentioned previously, would it generally sound best or optimal to set the Low-Pass dial on the sub at the lowest freq capability of the F-3? (Which Klipsch lists as 35Hz), so that I don't end up with a condition in which BOTH the mains AND the sub are playing frequencies between 35Hz and 100Hz?

...Or are the 8in. woofers in the F-3 best suited to play only frequencies above 100Hz, and I should just use the Hi-level connection as described in the Klipsch manual?

...Which would leave the very good Klipsch Sub-12 playing only sound between 24Hz (it's listed low-end) and a 35Hz dial setting, which may not be taking full advantage of the Sub-12...

And/or is this precisely why it would be better to upgrade my receiver, which would have a sub pre-out...which would lead me to a new thread and a new set of similar questions...

[wuzzzer]

IF you do keep your receiver and hook up your speakers the way you described then I would recommend a crossover setting between 60 and 80Hz. 100Hz is going to be too high for most subs. If you set it at 35Hz you probably won't ever hear the sub if you're listening to most music. It is ok to have the sub playing the same frequencies as the mains but you might need to adjust the subwoofer's phase control to blend it with your F3s.

I currently have my system set up somewhat like yours, except my receiver has both a subwoofer pre-out and a full range pre-out and in. I have the subwoofer hooked up to the subwoofer pre-out and it is playing everything from about 80Hz and down. My Forte IIs are receiving a full-range signal. The bass output is quite nice. []

And/or is this precisely why it would be better to upgrade my receiver,
which would have a sub pre-out...which would lead me to a new thread
and a new set of similar questions...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Although, I would think that there wouldn't be as many questions with a new receiver.

[sivadselim]

Am I thinking at all logically that my Klipsch F-3 speakers would sound better (or more complete) with a full-range signal when connected directly to the receiver's speaker channel output, and the sub connected to the B-channel speaker output of the recv.? It just seems to me that with all sound freq below 100Hz being removed from the signal out from the sub to the mains, that something is missing from the sound quality from the very good Klipsch F-3.

It's your decision, DP_redbear. Try it both ways. Since you don't have a receiver with a subwoofer output, there aren't as many benefits from running your front speakers crossed-over as there would be if you were using a receiver's digital crossover. But there are still benefits. If you cross the speakers over at 100Hz (since you have no other choice), the idea is that the woofers won't have to work as hard to reproduce the lower frequencies, and will instead be "freed up" to reproduce the midbass to midrange frequencies more cleanly and more accurately. And you use the subwoofer for doing what it does best; reproduce low frequencies.

And, if I am correct, and connect my F-3 and Sub-12 as mentioned previously, would it generally sound best or optimal to set the Low-Pass dial on the sub at the lowest freq capability of the F-3? (Which Klipsch lists as 35Hz), so that I don't end up with a condition in which BOTH the mains AND the sub are playing frequencies between 35Hz and 100Hz?

Theoretically, yes, that's how you would do it, but it isn't so cut-and-dry. Whether you run the speakers crossed-over OR full-range, since there are slopes involved (the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter slope, the speaker's own natural roll-off when run full-range, and the subwoofer's high-pass filter slope if the speakers ARE run crossed-over) as well as a room response, it is best in this situation for you to 'dial-in' the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter (it's 'crossover') setting to a setting that sounds best to YOU. Yes, if you run the speakers full-range, this setting will 'probably' end up being between 30Hz and 50Hz and if you run the speakers crossed over, this setting will 'probably' end up being between 80-120Hz. But, no matter how you connect the speakers, you should adjust the subwoofer's variable low-pass filter (its 'crossover') to a setting that YOU prefer.

...Or are the 8in. woofers in the F-3 best suited to play only frequencies above 100Hz, and I should just use the Hi-level connection as described in the Klipsch manual?

I explained the benefit of running the speakers crossed over, above.

...Which would leave the very good Klipsch Sub-12 playing only sound between 24Hz (it's listed low-end) and a 35Hz dial setting, which may not be taking full advantage of the Sub-12...

If you run the speakers full-range, then the Sub12's variable low-pass filter (its 'crossover') setting that you would use would be a lower setting than what you would use if you ran the speakers crossed-over. Under which situation the subwoofer performs 'best' is arguable. But, as I said, the idea is that if you do run the speakers crossed over, then the subwoofer is used for what it does best; reproduce low frequencies. But, whether the subwoofer is 'better' at reproducing those frequencies between ~ 35Hz - 100Hz than your speakers is arguable and depends upon the subwoofer's capabilities. Again, you should try it both ways and see what you prefer. I suspect that in your particular situation, you may prefer the speakers running full-range and the subwoofer covering those frequencies below which the speakers naturally roll-off. EXPERIMENT!

And/or is this precisely why it would be better to upgrade my receiver, which would have a sub pre-out...which would lead me to a new thread and a new set of similar questions...

There is an additional benefit when running a subwoofer and speakers crossed over with an A/V receiver's digital crossover. Since the digital crossover is applied prior to the amplification stage, the receiver's amplifiers are not sent a full-range signal. Since the low-frequencies (which are the hardest to amplify) have been removed from the signal that the amplifiers are sent, they have to work much less to amplify the signal that they ARE sent. Freed from the burden of having to amplify those low-end frequencies, the receiver runs cooler and its amplifiers are able to amplify those frequencies that they ARE sent much more cleanly and accurately.

But, depending upon your needs, you don't need to rush riht out and buy an A/V receiver. Will you always be running a 2-channel + subwoofer setup? Will you ever use the receiver for movies? If all you need is a 2-channel + subwoofer setup, then you may find that your current receiver is perfectly fine for your current needs.

[sivadselim]

If you do keep your receiver and hook up your speakers the way you described then I would recommend a crossover setting between 60 and 80Hz. 100Hz is going to be too high for most subs. If you set it at 35Hz you probably won't ever hear the sub if you're listening to most music. It is ok to have the sub playing the same frequencies as the mains but you might need to adjust the subwoofer's phase control to blend it with your F3s.

Remember, his receiver has NO subwoofer output (or digital crossover, for that matter). If he connects his speakers to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs, then his subwoofer applies a fixed high-pass filter of 100Hz to its speaker-level outputs. He can't adjust this; it's fixed. The only thing he CAN adjust is the subwoofer variable low-pass filter (erroneously called the 'crossover' by most). This is why he is correct in saying that he would 'probably' have to use a 'crossover' setting nearer to 100Hz if he runs his speakers crossed off of the sub's speaker-level outputs. He is also correct in saying that if he runs his speakers full-range, that he would use a 'crossover' setting on his sub that's closer to 35Hz. As I told him, in either instance (crossed off the sub or full-range), he should adjust the subs 'crossover' setting to a setting that HE prefers. In fact, the best way to do this is to disregard what the actual number value of the 'crossover' setting may be, and just focus on 'dialing it in' to a setting that is most pleasing to the listener's ears.

I currently have my system set up somewhat like yours, except my receiver has both a subwoofer pre-out and a full range pre-out and in. I have the subwoofer hooked up to the subwoofer pre-out and it is playing everything from about 80Hz and down. My Forte IIs are receiving a full-range signal. The bass output is quite nice.

I'm not sure I understand how you have your subwoofer connected and your receiver set up, wuzzzer. Could you clarify this? How are you running the subwoofer, connected to the receiver's sub pre-out, "from about 80Hz and down"? With its own 'crossover' or with the receiver's crossover? And if you are using your receiver's crossover, how are you sending the Fortes a full-range signal? Are you using an 'LFE+Main' type setting? If you ARE running the Fortes full-range, then the 80Hz crossover you have arrived at is dictated by the Fortes' low-end capabilities, the high and low-pass filter slopes that are involved, your room's response, and your own personal preference.

When running a subwoofer with speakers that are running full-range, and utilizing a subwoofer that is connected to a full-range signal, the 'crossover' (it's really a variable low-pass filter) setting that is used at the subwoofer will be somewhat dictated by the low-end capability of the speakers, but should be adjusted by the user to a setting that the user finds most pleasing to him.

[wuzzzer]

Remember, his receiver has NO subwoofer output (or digital crossover, for that matter). If he connects his speakers to the subwoofer's speaker-level outputs, then his subwoofer applies a fixed high-pass filter of 100Hz to its speaker-level outputs. He can't adjust this; it's fixed. The only thing he CAN adjust is the subwoofer variable low-pass filter (erroneously called the 'crossover' by most).

That is correct, but I was commenting on his idea of hooking his F3s up to the 'A' channel on his receiver and hooking his subwoofer to his 'B' channel. That way he can listen to the F3s without the subwoofer even being on and he's free to set whatever the top end of the subwoofer will play to.

I'm not sure I understand how you have your subwoofer connected and your receiver set up, wuzzzer. Could you clarify this? How are you running the subwoofer, connected to the receiver's sub pre-out, "from about 80Hz and down"? With its own 'crossover' or with the receiver's crossover? And if you are using your receiver's crossover, how are you sending the Fortes a full-range signal? Are you using an 'LFE+Main' type setting? If you ARE running the Fortes full-range, then the 80Hz crossover you have arrived at is dictated by the Fortes' low-end capabilities, the high and low-pass filter slopes that are involved, your room's response, and your own personal preference.

The subwoofer output on my receiver has a fixed high pass filter of 150Hz. On my SVS subwoofer I have its crossover setting set to 'On' so that I'm able to adjust whatever I want the top end on my SVS to be, from 40Hz up to 150Hz. My receiver is a 2 channel receiver and doesn't have all the fancy menus and speaker adjustments that most surround receivers have. That being said, it has no idea if a subwoofer is connected to its subwoofer pre-out or not. I thus have my Forte IIs connected to the regular high-level outputs on the receiver.

I am able to hook up my SVS subwoofer through the receiver's pre-outs and then back to the receiver. If I do that, I'm stuck with a fixed high-pass filter of 80Hz. That's how I used to have it hooked up, but I found that if I send a rull-range signal to the Forte IIs the bass is much more robust as the Fortes do put out some nice bass.

[BP_redbear]

Most of the time, my setup will be used as a 2.1, just playing music. Occasionaly, I will play a DVD with surround. In the future, I would like to add surround and center speakers (my receiver DOES have a 'Center Pre-Out' and a Surround Pre-Out').

I will try the different methods of connections that we have discussed, and see (hear, lol) which arrangement that I like best.

[sivadselim]

The subwoofer output on my receiver has a fixed high pass filter of 150Hz. On my SVS subwoofer I have its crossover setting set to 'On' so that I'm able to adjust whatever I want the top end on my SVS to be, from 40Hz up to 150Hz. My receiver is a 2 channel receiver and doesn't have all the fancy menus and speaker adjustments that most surround receivers have. That being said, it has no idea if a subwoofer is connected to its subwoofer pre-out or not. I thus have my Forte IIs connected to the regular high-level outputs on the receiver.

I am able to hook up my SVS subwoofer through the receiver's pre-outs and then back to the receiver. If I do that, I'm stuck with a fixed high-pass filter of 80Hz. That's how I used to have it hooked up, but I found that if I send a rull-range signal to the Forte IIs the bass is much more robust as the Fortes do put out some nice bass.

Ah, I see. But don't you mean the receiver has a fixed low-pass filter @ 150Hz? []

[wuzzzer]

Tomayto, Tomahto. [H]

[wuzzzer]

BP_redbear, where do you live? Just wondering if there's any Klipsch fans near you that could help you out in person.

[sivadselim]

BP_redbear, where do you live? Just wondering if there's any Klipsch fans near you that could help you out in person.

Sounds like he's got under control, to me.

[BP_redbear]

Thanks for the inputs...

So, obviously, it is fine to connect a Sub-12 by using the high-level connections (IN) and no speakers on the hi-level (OUT) connections. Is this correct?

Then, second question, if I had a two-way speaker that the tweeter didn't work in, and I disconnected the tweeter at its connections, would the woofer and all the other speaker components play undamaged? Once a crossover or low-pass filter passes on frequencies, does it not care if the signal is used or not?

BP

[sivadselim]

So, obviously, it is fine to connect a Sub-12 by using the high-level connections (IN) and no speakers on the hi-level (OUT) connections. Is this correct?

You are correct, sir.

Then, second question, if I had a two-way speaker that the tweeter didn't work in, and I disconnected the tweeter at its connections, would the woofer and all the other speaker components play undamaged? Once a crossover or low-pass filter passes on frequencies, does it not care if the signal is used or not?

Yes, it's OK. The crossover has separate high and low sections. It won't know that there is no tweeter connected.

[DrWho]

Then, second question, if I had a two-way speaker that the tweeter didn't work in, and I disconnected the tweeter at its connections, would the woofer and all the other speaker components play undamaged? Once a crossover or low-pass filter passes on frequencies, does it not care if the signal is used or not?

Yes, it's OK. The crossover has separate high and low sections. It won't know that there is no tweeter connected.

Actually...you cannot arbitrarily remove a driver from a network and expect the rest of the network to perform the same. This may not always be the case, but I know Klipsch always uses dummy loads at the outputs of networks not connected to any drivers. I don't want to confuse the issue, but as a general rule of thumb it's simply not true.

What is the specific situation requiring that the tweeter be removed?

[BP_redbear]

Does DrWho agree with the Sub-12 portion of my previous comment?

The second part was in reference to a set of Sound Dynamics 500 Concert Monitor loudspeakers (2-way with 10 in. woofer and metallic-horn dome tweeter each). I recently had the woofers professionaly rebuilt, then discovered that one of the tweeters is not working. I am not currently using them, while I search for a OEM replacement tweeter.

[DrWho]

Hooking the sub in parallel with the mains seems like a good approach...you'll just have to set the crossover on the sub so that it fills in just where the mains naturally roll off (so somewhere around 45Hz would probably work). The only disadvantage is you don't get any cleaned up mids by removing the bass from the woofers (the larger excursions of lower notes causes the mids to get muddied up a bit - highpassing the mains will reduce this distortion).

Floating the crossover that was normally going to the tweeter isn't going to hurt the woofers - it just changes the frequency response of the system. Really, the only thing you gotta worry about (in terms of damage) is to prevent low frequencies from being sent to drivers that can't reproduce them - like tweeters and squawkers and pretty much anything that's not a woofer.

[BP_redbear]

It does make sense, as sivadselim and wuzzer have discussed earlier, that it may be best to have the sub-12 thumping out the sounds best thumped out by its 12-inch driver, and have the Klipsch F-3 floorstanders removed of all sound freq below 100Hz.

If it will keep the 8in. woofers of the F-3s cleaner sounding, then I may stick wit my current configuration.

...however, I do plan to connect the F-3 set directly to the receiver A-channel, and the Sub-12 to the B-channel (which are probably paralleled off the same amp), to experience the difference, experiment with both configuration, settings, and see hear which I like best.