Caddymania Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 I need some advice for speakers to complete my new home theater system. I have a pair of Forte II's which I love and which still amaze me. I just bought a Yamaha RX-V1 Receiver, which could have up to 8 speakers plus two subs for a full configuration. I already have a KLF-C7 for the center channel, and my entertainment center was built specifically to accomodate it. I don't know if this is ideal. Some of the older posts suggest classic speakers for this purpose, but if they are unshielded, they will cause problems with my TV. The Forte's already do if they are too close to the TV, but I digress. I plan to add a pair of rear surrounds, and a pair of front effects speakers. I have visited several audio stores and read a number of opinions, and continue to be confused. For the rears should I use RB-3's or RS-3 's or RS-7's? The RS-3's seemed to be very muted when I heard them at the store, and I liked the RB-3's much better, but will they work as rear channels? Presumably, they need to be on stands. How high? I cannot mount these on the wall since one would be in the back, and the other on the side. Would a smaller (than the Forte II) classic Klipsch be a better choice for rears? Would these require stands? If they must be placed with the rear of the speaker facing the wall (as the Fortes) this would be a problem for the same reasons I couldn't mount the RB-3's on the wall. It would be possible to mount the RS-3's on the walls, on the side walls. For the front effects speakers would the SB-1 or 2 be adequate? Any other ideas? Any insights would be greatly appreciated!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickey Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Caddymania, I have Chorus II's up-front with a KLF-C7, and RS-7s for surrounds, and it's a great combination. I have read equally good things from other board members about the RS-3's as surrounds. One question - are you looking for the rears to support 5 channel music, or as surrounds for home theater application? The reason I ask is that the RS-3's or RS-7's are better suited to the latter. If you are predominantly looking for a 5 chanenl music application, you may want to consider another set of Forte's for the rears. Colin ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Caddymania, welcome to the Discrete Revolution. It took a few hard knocks to make me realize that my vintage Klipsch system was a diamond in the rough. Yes, SB-2's make great front effects speakers... I mounted mine atop 5' high columns made from scratch... and it was easy, bought the parts at Home Depot. I can post a photo if you like. A Yamaha RX 3000 has been driving my HT system for a year or so... and properly set up front effects do wonders by creating a larger sound stage and allowing the L & R Mains to be tucked in close to the HDTV. I have even used elevated and inverted KLF-10's as front effects speakers... they were great but were drafted for another Klipsch experimental system. I use unshielded KLF-30's as LMain, CMain, RMain with a 65" Mitsu RP HDTV. I have no screen problems unless I allow any KLF-30 to extend beyond the face of the screen... even a fraction of an inch! And I have the three KLF-30's immediately alongside (toed in a bit) and atop the TV. If you call 1 800 KLIPSCH and get one of their fine Tech Reps on the line, they can fill you in on "bucking" magnets and other techniques to shield your TV. Ask the "Answering Machine" Boa about it, he did it to his KLF-30 Mains. There is a long but revealing thread about a center channel test in this section, check out " Hey HornEd, need Phantom feedback... " by T-man that you might check out. Doing the challenge made me realize that we are in the middle of a digital sound revolution that has rendered older speaker conventions as outmoded as the outmoded "Pro Logic" technology they were designed to support. I hope this brief message puts your "sonic feats" on a better path toward the Discrete, Full-Range, Multi-Channel Age that 5.1 (and above) has made available to us. The key speaker decisions required today are a solid, full-range center speaker and a quality base that can handle the systems 20-90Hz Bass needs with real bass and not "Dah THUMP" that is corrupting young ears (and everyone else's) as they drive by. Learn, earn and enjoy! It's the American Way... HornEd ------------------ "Where Klipsch Legends Cavort Discretely Six Ways!" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main SB-2's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra subs, Samson Megawatt Amp KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808 and such... Tweakin' On! Music Respite System: vintage Cornwall with SVS16-46CS+ Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake2 Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Hi Caddy - The "muted" sound you hear from the RS-3s is, as Colin aludes to, because they are designed more for the non-localized effect you usually want with rear speakers for HT. So it isn't really muted, as much as it is dispersed. Colin's point is spot-on - music or theater or both? If both, does your Yammy support different pairs of rear speakers, one for HT and one for music? There's a local guy selling a pair of Oak Forte IIs via the classifieds in the Arizona Republic. Search on Klipsch in the classifieds at www.azcentral.com and you'll find it. He doesn't mention Forte in the ad. Not sure how he'd feel about shipping them, though. Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Caddyman, I understand your confusion... so let me try to clarify things a bit. The "surround sound" that's been around for a decade, what your most likely to see in VHS tapes and cabel TV is a system where the full-range sound goes to the left and right main speakers and a scaled down sound goes to the surround speakers to create an ambiance condusive to your enjoying the movie. The sound is dispersed into the room but not aimed at the "sweetspot." That's why the RS-3 sounded "muted" as Doug pointed out. Dolby Digital or dts 5.1 sound sources send a full-range discrete signal to each of the five speakers (Front Array: LMain, Center, RMain. Rear Array: RSurround, LSurround.) and the ".1 is routed to your subwoofer, if you have one, or if not, usually goes to the LMain and RMain. Actually, upwards of 75% (conservatively) of the sound of a 5.1 movie is generally pushed through the Center... or, should you opt for a Phantom Center, divided to the Left Main or Right Main as the movie sound engineer makes the mix. The RB-3 is a "full-range" speaker and so a modern DVD would sound better IMHO with a full range speaker for your surrounds. I prefer to place my full-range surrounds against opposite walls about a foot behind the place where my head would be in the sweetspot. Horn loaded speakers do best when their horns are angled directly toward the head in the sweetspot. That seems to work well for movies and music. Should you venture into 6.1 or 7.1 systems, you may find a full-range speaker does better there too. Late model upscale receivers convert dts or Dolby Digital 5.1 into 6.1. 7.1 allows an extra background channel... something that is probably overkill unless you have a VERY BIG home theater. Actually having a front center speaker that is the equal of your mains is far more important than your selection of surround speakers. The closer all five (or more) primary speakers are to being identical, the better you HT will sound. The Klipsch speakers with the "WDST" designation are a scaled-down full-range speaker to handle the new technology with di-polar speakers to project the old technolgy ambient sounds to the front and to the real, effectively attempting to be all things to all situations. I tried them... but went back to having six mains in my 6.1 system. Well, duty calls. I hope this helps. You might check out my posted results of T-man's challenge on the Home Theater section (Hey HornEd, need Phantom feedback... ), it provides additonal info on the subject of building a "modern Home Theater" to truly join the 5.1 generation. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddymania Posted February 3, 2002 Author Share Posted February 3, 2002 Thanks to everyone for your insights. I do plan to use this setup as much for listening to music--using the RX-V1's sound fields--as for Home Theater applications. To HornEd, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of your speaker stands for the SB-2's. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 Caddymania, I will be glad to post some photos of the SB-2 stands in the next day or two. I thought you might like a rundown on how they were built. Of course, your on your own as to adding the modified '49 Caddy fins! I walked into Home Depot looking for inspiration and unsure of what I would find. I had some design constraints in mind. The finished product had to look professionally made, had to swivel to aim the SB-2 at the heart of the sweetspot, had to be finished in black to match the other sound equipment, and had to be quick and easy to assemble. I like a bargain, even more than most, but cost was not a primary consideration. The adventure really started cooking when I spied some 4" i.d. black PVC sewer pipe... which comes in 10 ft. lengths. I had a friendly Home Depot person cut it in two (I was in the smaller car) and then added a couple of black PVC endcaps that matched and provided a finished look that hid the unevenness of the cut. Industrial strength 3" Velcro was chosen as the method of attachment for the SP-2's to the finished columns. Next in line were two blue 4" rotating metal pipe flanges (the most expensive pieces) that were built to fit the PVC and offered a strong metal joint to attach the bottom of the column to a base plate with bolts or screws. For baseplates, I picked up a couple of 12" Formica sink cutouts (3/4 inch thick) for which plastic edging is available. Next was the smallest bag of sanitized "Play Sand" they had. The last thing were a box of large, heavy-duty Ziplock freezer bags. Speaker wire I had aplenty at home. For clarity and brevity, I will describe the building of one stand... although two are required. I used short, large wood screws to attach the pipe flange to the center of the Formica cut out. I sealed the inside of the flange to the Formica with Silicone (probably an unneeded step). If you choose to paint these, the only parts that are not black, now is the time. Next the Velcro was attached to the top of the flange and edge trimmed. The sticky part was exposed as I centered it onto the inverted SB-2 speaker. SB-2's are approximately 7' across and 8.5" deep so the slightly larger than 4" column not only is sufficient... but looks it! I separated the Velcroed SB-2 from the endcap and put it aside. Two holes were drilled into the PVC tube, on the same line, a few inches from the top and the bottom. Speaker wire was then run through the holes with plenty of wire available for connecting the SB-2. The end cap was then press fit onto the top of the column. By not gluing it, I was able to use the endcap to match the height of the columns with precision. I had intended to glue it later but later didn't seem necessary after all. Next came the "Play Sand" and Ziplock bags. I slit the Ziploc bags in half vertically and sealed the edges to make two long and narrow bags out of each bag. I filled the bags (as I remember it was two or three "half bags" for each column) with just enough sand to be a tight fit in the column and rammed them in. I used a total of about ten lbs of sand per column. Next, I glued the bottom of the column into the flange mounted on the Formica round. Stood it up and placed the SB-2 on top, wired it up and stood it in the corner of the room aimed at the sweetspot. It helps to sit in your favorite position and have someone else swivel the stands to precisely the correct angle. You will be surprised at how important it is to aim horns with precision... they do not have as wide a margin of error as cones do. The stands have been in place for about a year or so... and not one guest has suspected that they were home made, or inexpensive, or took about an hour to build without any exotic tools... or sewer pipe! In fact, I am often asked where they can purchase such columns. Perhaps this adventure will inspire you to bang out a bigger and better Home Theater... I hope so. I will post detailed photos of the columns along with photos of my front sound wall and details of the KLF-30 with custom "horizontalized" motor board to make it a Center Main as soon as I find the time. I have a 5 megapixel SLR Olympus E-20 with a wide angle extension... so there will be no delay in processing. Sorry if I was a bit wordy, but I try to get as much done in one post as possible. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Well, Caddymania, I had lost track of this thread. I've posted a view of the front of my home theater. You can see the SB-2's on the columns. On the left hand side, you can see the white round base that I have yet to paint. tsk! tsk! You can also see the motor board that I made for the KLF-30C... it has really been a joy to behold. If you are interested in some more detailed photos of the stands, let me know. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddymania Posted February 7, 2002 Author Share Posted February 7, 2002 HornEd, Very impressive set up! Yes, I would be interested in more detailed photos of the SB-2 stands. And since you have a digital camera...I still haven't gone digital (Just bought a Canon EOS-1V). I'm now convinced after reading the posts you suggested and the responses here, that I should get another pair of Forte II's. I already missed one opportunity (at $850 w/o shipping). I missed a pair of Chorus II's as well on ebay (sold for $1,125 w/o shipping). I have located some Quartet's (for $589). I suppose the ideal would be Forte II's all around. But since I'm dealing with used, would a combination of Chorus II (front) and Forte II's, or a combination of Forte II's (front) and Quartets be adequate? I also have to deal with aesthetics, since my Forte's are the oak finish and I want to match. One other thing. I've reviewed the Yamaha RX-V1 manual again and it shows and says the rear speakers should be mounted high, about 6 feet up. Obviously I would not do that with any of these speakers. Is it important? Thanks for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 Look around, Caddymania, The Center Main is your most important choice for HT... and newly evolving multi-channel music. Next comes your two supporting mains, LMain & RMain. The center really needs more capacity and quality as a speaker then the supportive mains do. The surround speakers should be facing each other on opposite side walls... aimed at a point in space about 1 ft. BEHIND the head of someone sitting in the sweetspot. Only a rear effects speaker (or two) need to be concerned with the back wall. If I were you, I would bide my time an find the right Forte II's... they will come along... and then you will have a treasure to behold. The suggestion that the speakers be mounted six feet high is a throwback to "ambient" ProLogic sound rather than the discrete full-range sound available today. They also anticipated that the mainstream would be using much smaller speakers. Also, raising the speakers higher allows for more highs to get over the back of a sweetspot couch or chair. I have my sides and rear KLF-30's on the floor and they do just fine. When I was 19 I was made a division manager of a land development company in San Francisco... a '54 Coup de Ville came with the job. And, no, no one in my family had anything to do with the corporation that hired me. Each time I see your handle, makes me think of that old boat. You know, John Madden of pro football fame, first car was a Caddy. A pre-WWII that he got in his senior year in high school. Remind me to tell you about it sometime... should you want to hear the rest of the story. I will try to post some more photos in the next few days. that progressive Klipsch artistry. HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-08-2002 at 12:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 Caddymania, as promised the photos and instructions are together labled "Front Effects Speaker Stands" in the Odds & Mods section. Enjoy. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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