Deang

Keep the Sony. Hell, I didn't even know Sanyo made audio equipment. RP-5's are powered, so -- it's not like the Sony is under that much of a strain. Next thing you buy, if you stay with solid state receivers, make sure it's discrete. You're looking at Sony ES, or Onkyo. It helps if you tell us more about what you like to listen to, how loud, how big your room is, what other equipment you have, what your goals are, etc... Andy, I like solid state. I like my Aragon. I like Onkyo. I like power:)

Kelly -- see, you do it too I don't understand how you can make a blanket statement regarding high current SET. Have you heard the Apollos? Have you heard Apollos with the new KR300BXLS' utilizing the new filiment? Have you ever heard the KR300BXLS? Or is your assessment of this tube based on your experience with the KR2a3? Have you heard the Apollos on the RF-7's? Have you heard RF-7's? Have you heard a Sony 9000es? Is it possible, that in a certain system, you might find high current SET very involving? Do you really believe that 3.5 watts of 2a3 on RF7's will bring me closer to experiencing a live event, 'live' in the sense of what kind of music I enjoy, and how I like to enjoy it? Is it possible for a pair of Apollos and RF-7's to deliver as musical satisfying experience as K-horns and WL monoblocks? Are there really any absolutes? The gun thing was awful. Not my finest hour.

Kelly -- I didn't mean to come off like I was offended. I was actually agreeing with you. I was just pointing out that I'm not the only one who takes the 'narrow' approach, and it seems you agree with me here. It is somewhat 'small minded' not to consider more things than I do. I suppose if I write a review, I should write something beneficial to all. I thought it ironic that I do the very thing I accuse other reviewers of -- so... 'small minded'. I'm not the 'critical' listener I was 10 years ago. I just finally got around to figuring out what in a system I find important, and then built accordingly. I'm quite familiar with the sound of many instruments, and if something sounds 'off', I'm certainly going to mention it. I use music as therapy, and when I sit down to listen, I pretty much only care about one thing -- do the speakers disappear? When I do listen for the purpose of sending out an opinion, I like to keep descriptions as simple as possible. BTW, I never even knew what the hell 'space between instruments', and 'blackness of backround' was -- until you came to this forum. It wasn't until I bought the first AE-25 that I actually heard a bit of what you were talking about -- so, now I can listen for it, and render an opinion. There is probably much that you hear, that I don't even notice. I'm just zoning in on a handful of very specific things. I know that if these things sound 'right' -- the speaker, amp, CD player, whatever -- will do well across the board. At least, this has been my experience so far. I'm sure you would agree that it's very difficult to peg down the exact differences between two tube amps. Just think -- I've only owned 4. I've got a very basic understanding of the differences I've heard between these amps. As far as the Scott goes, all I know is that the Scott is as musically involving as the Superamp DJH, and makes my ears every bit as happy. Your points are well taken, I just don't know how I would go about describing equipment with music that I have no idea is supposed to sound.

Hmmm. I hadn't really considered this. What you say is true. My opinion only has meaning to someone with my musical taste and listening preferences. otoh, I'm not a professional reviewer, nor do I claim to be. My library is limited to what I like to hear, and just don't own any little girl with guitar music, jazz, or classical -- and even if I did, I wouldn't have a clue how to evaluate equipment with it. At any rate, even with my narrow, small minded range -- folks should be able to glean enough to get a general idea of what's going on. Besides, I don't ever recall Stereophile, TAS, or anyone else for that matter -- ever once using material that I'm familiar with, or listen too. As far as I concerned, their reviews are as useless to me, as mine are to you.

Danny, That's right, cables don't really make a difference. Usually nothing worth getting all excited about. However, with these SET amps, I've found that less is more.

Before you jump into Parasound, you might give serious consideration to some of the new Richard Marsh designs. http://www.marshsounddesign.com/

...and you call ME crazy? I think we're all missing a chromosome or two.

Randy -- drink more coffee! Simple, really. I wanted to use similiar cabling arrangements on both amps before I started comparing. When I single wired the Apollos, they sounded better. I ended playing with cables most of the night. I deduced that the Apollos, for some reason or another -- don't respond well to birwiring. Tom -- Old Journey only sounds psychodelic when you're on mushrooms.

LOL. Like I said. I know every note off those three CD's. When you can't do direct A/B comparisons -- you're fighting auditory memory. I've been listening to this stuff forever, I've heard it on dozens of different systems, heard it live, and used to sing and play some of it. I was big on Greg Rolle when he was with Santana. I was doing Journey when people didn't even who the hell they were. 'Look into the Future', and 'Next' are must owns. Infinity was a tremendous effort. The problem is, we have all heard the radio cuts off of this thing so much we are sick of it. However, if you sit and listen to the whole thing through -- you gain a real appreciation for the intensity and emotion in this recording. Rolle's moving air, and Perry's splitting it. Piano, Hammond B3, and Neal Schon going completely nuts. Harmonies by Perry that chase every note off of Schon's Les Paul. You going to CD Now to listen to clips of Judas Priest frightens me. 95% of their stuff was really bad, just plain awful. Only one recording is worth owning. 'Sad Wings of Destiny' has some mighty fine stuff on it. There is a cut in it with about 3 minutes of grand piano, and Halford actually trying to sing. Most of this recording is just riff alley, and there are some major transients on the drums and cymbal work. I've used 'Island of Domination' as a test song on every set of speakers I was even remotely considering. I listened to most of this CD on a set of Vandersteen's with a room full of people at Audio Etc. here in Dayton once. People were coming into the room with this confused, disoriented look. Maybe one of them was you? Funny thing however -- none of them would leave. After about 10 minutes, I've got 8 or 9 people standing behind me...listening. I dumped about a 100 watts of Jeff Rowland into the Vandersteens. I reduced those things to homogenized spagetti in seconds. After I turned it down, a guy remarked that he didn't understand why it sounded so different loud. I explained that the true test of a speaker -- is whether or not it maintains its signature when the music gets complex, or goes up in volume. I then threw this CD into a system with Magnepan 1.5QRs and an Adcom. I dumped the whole amp into those things before the CD was over. I wasn't the only person that walked out with set of Magnepans that day. I'm guessing I don't listen for the same things you do. When I'm done with all this business, I'm sending you some CD's. You may want to bolt your chair to the floor. The cabling thing is easy. The Apollos sounded better in a single wire configuration. Biwiring produced a softening of the transients.

Cloves reek huh? 1/2 an hour after I smoke one in the car the smell is gone. Deb gets in the car and says: "Did you smoke in here?" "I don't know, did I?" Smoke an American cigarette in a car and you can still smell it a week later. You may not like the smell of them, but they sure as hell don't reek. I smoke at work, and people want to know where the Christmas ham is.

I started my first stage of serious testing last night between the Scott push-pull and my Apollo SET amps. I'd decided the best way to do this is to spend an evening with each amp, only using three CD's. The three I picked, I've been listening to for 10 years or longer. I decided on these three, because I am extremely familiar with them, and have heard them extensively on every decent system I've owned. Kelly will be disappointed, as well as others here. However, I felt it imperitive I use material that would not wash out of my auditory memory. Journey -- Infinity The Moody Blues -- Anthology Judas Priest -- Sad Wings of Destiny With this plan in place, I went forward...about 2 feet. A while back I had done some extensive listening with different cables, and various configurations on the Apollos. I never posted about it, because what I had found had contradicted earlier posts in the past few months where I had said it didn't amount to a hill of beans of difference. I wasn't sure how I wanted to handle the contradiction, and so have been putting it off. I also had alot of other things going on that were taking priority as far as my attention went. I had landed a nice pair of Music Metre Silvers off of AudiogoN for $160. This was a 75% savings over retail, and I bought them specifically to settle a thought floating around in my head. The thought was that copper is copper, but that silver is not copper. I was thinking that if cables made a difference, it might be easiest to hear if I went to a different conductive material. I received the cables and promptly put them on the horns, moving the MIT's to the woofers. There was a substantial difference in the presentation of the treble over the MIT's. There was a softening at the extreme top, but also a bit of a 'glare' present in the lower treble at high SPL's that I didn't hear with the MIT's. I reversed the cables, and again found a difference, but it was harder to nail down. Mostly, the treble was back to 'normal', but I couldn't really discern a difference in the woofer output. However, I reasoned there had to be one, since it had made such a change on the treble. I goofed around with this over a couple of hours, even yanking the MIT's altogether, and using my Tributaries straight OFC copper stranded. I ended up deciding I liked the Silvers on the horns, and the MIT's on the woofers. I thought there was overall improvement in the treble. A smoothing of sorts, in spite of the bit of glare -- that only manifested itself at 95db or above. So, silver sounds different than copper, what else can I say? I still don't know if I was really hearing a difference between the Tributaries OFC stranded and the MIT's -- but the MIT's look really cool you see -- so I just put them in. I bring this up now, because last night I decided since the Scott can not be biwired (from a practical standpoint because of the terminal strips) -- I wanted to put both the Scott and Apollos on even footing as far as cabling went. So, I went with just the Music Metres in a single wire configuration. I wanted to use these because they are outfitted with spades, and are much easier to attach to the Scott. I realized this was not a perfect setup, since I have no silver jumpers for the RF7's. So, to help offset this somewhat, I put the Silvers on the woofers of the RF7's, and used my homemade Vampire jumpers to the horn. Putting in the first CD ended up turning my night into a freaking nightmare. It was apparent from the first dozen measures of music, that there was marked increase in transient response, and the bass was everywhere. I generally don't get too excited about miniscule changes in the signature, but this was kind of ridiculous. I got to spend the night in cable hell, and I will end this post by just saying that the Wellborne Apollos suffer somewhat with biwiring. Could this be something particular to tube amps in general? I have a few other thoughts about this cable thing, but I'm not ready to be flamed yet.

Jeepers Keith, why did you have to go THERE? It took me two hours to rub those stains off the chassis plate. Actually, I couldn't smell anything from the amp. But now that I know this, I might want to wipe those tubes down with some IPA:) I smoke indonesian cloves. About 60% tobacco and 40% cloves. No additives. It's actually illegal in most countries to add ANYTHING to tobacco. Cigarettes from the U.K. and most of Europe are additive free. Last month I bummed a Marlboro -- and gagged violently.

That's great Don. Yeesh, if you think you ramble, I guess my meanderings must sound like inane babbling. Let's see, where can one by a tubed unit that: Is tube rectified. Has point-to-point wiring. Is all discrete. Has a derived center channel for subs. Has a balance knob. Has tone controls. Has a loudness switch for low level listening. ...and the aroma of Americas finest tobacco -- all for less than what one usually pays for three dozen pizzas. Thank God Craig doesn't chew.

Scalas and Wrights? I'll add them to my list

O.K. Will do.

I can probably get some good pictures for you. As far as sending it down goes, I don't know. I was actually hoping someone here with some sense would scoop this thing up. How about that sub Kelly? You'll need it for those K-horns your'e getting:) I believe #1 Loon goes to you old Yoda. I mean, I'm not the one fretting over whether to use a record clamp or not;) I wonder if the clamp, pressing the vinyl against the platter -- alters the distance between the groove walls, as the stylus moves closer to the center. Just a thought. I think I'm going to spend a few days comparing the Apollos and the Scott head on. The initial cursory comparison I did probably wasn't really adequate to draw firm conclusions. Besides, the Apollos are quite gorgeous, and after spending a couple of hours with them last night, decided it might be harder to part with them than I thought. Man, your'e brutal. The Cornwalls will only be my fourth set of Klipsch in 3 years, and two of those were part of my upgrade path to the RF-7's. I'm still fiddling with DQ's, but your not counting those against me are you:) Let's see, the amp count again. What is it? Anthem, Bryston, Superamp, Superamp DJH, and Apollos. Aragon was for the DQ's, can't count that one. Started with the Anthem before you started infecting me with you bizarre ideas, can't count that one either. So,4 amps. I need to save this post. This comes up every few months:) I know, "I thou dost protest too much." Oh well.

"Hell, I'm 95 years old. I can't hear anything over 2Khz!" -- PWK

Yes, I scraping money together for Jeff's Cornwalls.

Screaming Child -- 110db Notice that "Screaming Wife" wasn't on the list. Easily 115db. This necessitates 120db listening levels from a music reproduction system. Any system not employing Klipsch speakers will subject the audiophile to much more dangerous potential health risks: Brain damage, blindness, and possibly...death. Seriously though, 95db is tops for me.

I'm making some changes. Original plans have changed somewhat. For Sale: Craigmeister Scott 299A: This was Craigs personal amp, and has had just about everything done that you can have done to one of these. Cosmetically, it's an 8.5, and comes with the wood case. It's pretty much got the best of everything, including tubes -- which if I had any sense I would rob for the 'B' version that's coming. $550 shipped. (same as I paid) Heresies: Beautiful set, but not perfect. Of course, I have sometimes unrealistic expectations, and am generally picky as hell. Most of the speakers look like new, including the cane grills. However, there are some minor dings along a couple of the rear edges, as well as very small chip out of one of the rear sides, where the panel meets up against the corner -- easily repaired. These are 83's, with the plastic resin lenses. They also come with risers that are in better shape than I expected. A little bit of veneer has peeled off, but not noticeable when they are sitting on the floor. As usual, I make things sound worse then they are, that way there are no surprises. $525 shipped. (same as I paid) SVS 20-39+ & Samson pro 1000: Not that anyone here on 2 channel would be interested, but here it is anyways. Like new. $800 shipped.

Like the Twain qoute. Was it really two months? I got that last email from you about having to take a break from the forum to get some work done. You sounded like you needed some space -- so I gave it to you. Ah Master Yoda -- you can be so sensitive sometimes:) It was nothing personal, and I wasn't mad in the least bit. No money for K-horns, but have money for Cornwalls -- it's really just that simple. We have different priorities in our listening. I feel like I have to get some juice to carry the SPLs I like to carry from time to time. Where this is at the near top of my list -- it is at the the very bottom for you. Like I said, down the road, K-horns probably -- and then I can sacrifice the power.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/cutsheet.asp?id=88 Maybe they called them Cornwall II's back then because of the vertical horn? Don't know, I'm just going by the link, and the general info on the vintage stuff here on the site.

I'm by no means an expert on the Heritage pedigree -- but I can tell you that if they were made in 1962 then they are not Cornwall II's -- which didn't come out until 1985. You probably just meant to say 'Cornwalls'. Congrats!

Well now, It is true that you are usually correct, and I'm not going to deny this. However: I remember the email from you when I was taking a hard look at Scalas. You said, "Get the Cornwalls, they sound better than ANY of them." By "them", I assume you meant of all the speakers in Heritage line up. You also told me not to get the Heresies, because you were trying to "save my back and my ears". This, even after I reminded you I would be driving them in conjunction with 500 watts of SVS subwoofing. You actually tried to warn me off of the Apollos initially, and I ended up liking them very much. Incidentlly, they are only putting out 9 watts for me because I have them on the 4 ohm taps. Also, if you go to the FAQ's at the Welborne site, Ron Welborne himself says the difference in the midrange between the Apollos, Laurels, and Moondogs -- is not a jaw dropping difference. I had read most of this stuff before making the purchase, and am glad I opted for more power over a miniscule amount of finesse -- finesse I might not even have noticed when one considers my musical tastes. BTW -- I did not get high current SET so I could do Metal. I got high current SET so I would have sufficient headroom for all of my music. Turkey:) $800 for a set of Cornwalls is a good move for me right now. I'm sure I will have no trouble learning the crossover and implementing the appropriate mods. I don't have corners for K-horns, and even if I did -- they are out of reach for now. I'm sure I will eventually do this, but will have to build false corners for them. As far as 2a3 goes -- only with a set of K-horns would I be willing to try it. At any rate, timing is just bad for this right now. Two Scotts: I'm still thinking on this. I initially posted I would sell the first one. I then changed my mind. I'm not 100% decided on this as of yet. One thing is true. A Scott does not sound the same on the Heresies as it does on the RF-7's. You give me a hard time, but the truth is -- you're as fixated and intriqued by the various signatures of amps and preamps as I am by speakers. The only difference between us here is that I have more back problems from dragging all this stuff up and down the stairs:) The Scott meets my needs, and meets my criteria for good sound. So -- what's wrong with having two? Ultimately, it's the speaker that carries the majority of the system signature -- and that's really where I like play. As I said though; still really undecided here. What do you think? Maybe yank the Hovland coupling caps out and throw some copper foil Jensons into the Apollos before I give them up? I'm open to suggestions here -- but money is tight. Anything remotely interesting is going to require selling off the Scott, the Heresies, and the Aragon (which I really don't want to do). I'm comitted to the Cornwalls. I told Jeff I would buy them -- and I try very hard to keep my word. I will think more on this.

Good post Kelly. I think most of take these things as "givens", although we don't always clarify the specifics when we're rendering an opinion. I think part of this comes from all of us here being such a tight nit group, and having a pretty good handle regarding the various tastes in music and general listening habits. I do agree that certain types of music are better able to reveal the subtle differences in systems, and that others, like rock and heavier material in general (which is almost always amplified), by it's very nature -- masks these nuances. I think those who are hooked on Jazz and Classical have quite a challenge before them. Unamplified instruments, recorded in their own acoustic space, are certainly harder to reproduce accurately. I mean, does "accuracy" even apply all that much to a Gibson and Marshall Stack. To a point, but not on the same level as unamplified instruments. I want grip, grind, shimmer on the cymbals, snap on the snare, whack on the bass, vocals that are centered and "live" -- and get it all hanging out in front of me with a little warmth and some air. If a system can do that -- I'm estatic. I do listen to other things, and so expect females to sound natural, and not like they're spitting all over me from the stage, and I like my piano to have the percussive element remain intact. Something can sound very "musical", and not be all that "accurate", and of course -- the inverse here is true as well. I think ideally, we'd like to try to straddle the fence here -- and find a sound that delivers a sufficient amount of both. I feel very strongly that the Scott and Heresies meet this criteria (at least for me). I've been very taken with the sound, and am quite embarrassed over my past remarks regarding Heritage, and I repent in dust and ashes. Some changes are in the wind over here. I have been given serious thought to selling off the Apollos. They sound wonderful, they really do. If I didn't have so many other things I'd like to try -- I would just keep them. But I really believe, really think, based on what I am hearing -- that this vintage sound -- delivers 90% of what the Apollos give me. I love the extra ambiance and smoothness, but I don't notice it on everything I listen too, and sometimes I do wish they had more gas. Great amps, really -- but when a $500 push-pull has me glued to the basement to the point that I'm not turning the other system on anymore -- then something is seriously wrong (and it ain't the RF-7's!). Maybe I'm just enamored with this "new" sound right now -- and it will pass, as things like this usually do -- but damn, it's been a whole week. I'm also in a bit of a quandry over here. I want Jeff's Cornwalls, and I'll need additional money to mod the crossovers. I also need a little bit of money to do this next set of DQ's that finally showed up. Lastly -- I will also have to pay Craig to work the Scott 299b. I could swing these things over the next couple of months, but I feel like why bother, when I can unload the Apollos and square everything now. Complicating the issue further is that the Aragon isn't selling, and I was going to use this money to pay Jeff. So today I started thinking. I got two Scotts, the Apollos, and this Aragon that I really like the sound of. I don't like to admit it, because I'm supposed to hate solid state. It also dawned on me this morning that I really need the damn thing to test the DQ's as I mod the crossovers. I really can't test DQ's out with a 40 year old, 17 watt push pull. These DQ's showed in a condition much better than I expected, and with the exception of the woofers, ALL the drivers are intact this time. So, I began entertaining this thought of keeping the Aragon, selling the Apollos, and running both the RF7's and Cornwalls with the Scotts. Of course I only have one Scott right now, so what do I use on the RF7's if I sell the Apollos -- until Craig gets done with the other Scott? I lug the Aragon upstairs for a general ear cleaning session. Why not? I got all this crap -- mind as well have some fun with it. As I was climbing the stairs, it dawned on me that I had not tried the Aragon with the AE-3 DJH yet. I then remembered that I had done it with the stock AE-3 I had here for a short time. I liked the combo, and thought it sounded very good as long as I threw some watts at the RF-7's. I didn't think it sounded very good compared to the SuperAmp at low to moderate levels. However, today, -- I just wanted to get blown out of my chair. I'm not going to go overboard here. I'll just say that there is quite a difference between the stock and DJH versions of the AE-3. The combo delivers a smooth, warm (by solid state standards), and ballsy sound. Not bad, just different. It was actually a nice change. Just as before, I thought the Aragon 4004 MKII/AE-3 combo is a MUCH better sounding combo than the Bryston 3B-ST/SF Line 1 I tried. The AE-3 DJH makes this amp more than listenable, and to my surprise -- was fun. It's always the same with me. If it's clean, relatively grain free, grinds, snaps, and whacks -- I can live with it.