ncsubum

"their high sensitivity makes them easy to pair with any old receiver" any old reciever will not do...the sensitivity brings out the best and worst of your reciever/amp... heres my journey and discoveries... bought rf-5's a little over a year ago --- rf-5's were so freakin' good sounding on my yamaha rx-v800 3 months later bought rf-7's --- sounded pretty darn good on the yamaha, but seemed too bright, and didn't have the bass response i expected...still MUCH better than other stuff i'd heard. some time later --- tried sherwood r-725 which is 165x2 and made the 7's shine...sounded so good, bass response was better, highs weren't as harsh, and spl was a good deal higher. a month ago --- bought a NAD C372...WOW! i didn't believe class A and high current would really be that much different...but i bought it on sale and figured i'd give it a shot...the bass output was better than i every could have imagined...and spl...oh my gosh...on good clean tracks i could just keep turning it up...never distorted, and was so loud that my nose was fluttering cause there was so much pressure. today --- got another C372...so each of the NAD's are bridged to one an rf-7...so they're getting 300wpc of good clean high current class A low distortion power. i hear things i didn't know were there. a lot of tracks have low undertones that kindof play softly in the background...i'd never heard them before and its quite hypnotizing. ---- point being...you are right, they are def. the easiest speaker in the store to get loud...but to really make them sound their very best make sure you get a good amp or reciever my buddy picked up a nad t753 (i think) thats 90x2 in stereo and 70x5 or 6 all channels driven, it still sounds just like the c372 just doesn't get quite as loud (only ~118 or 120db) but is still PLENTY loud. bass is very important to the percieved loudness. with the better bass reaponse i have now i find myself not turning it up as loud for normal listening...i mean...there are those times that i like to fling my drivers across the room, and i do it on a frequent basis...but honestly i think that if i had it to do over again...i'd go w/the rf-5's which don't bring out the worst of a reciever like the 7's do...the output is amazing for their size (they are only shy of the rf-7's output by like 4db) and i really really believe the midrange and vocals sound better than the 7's...matched with a good sub, like one of the svs subs tuned down to 16hz. you'd have the great sound of the 5's and even better extension than the 7's. go w/rf-5's they sound really good...or 7's if you want you should be able to pick up a good nad reciever for 1000 or less rs-7's for surrounds will do the trick rc-7 is very nice, i love the way it sounds. svs powered sub, never heard one, but everybody says they're good.

most recievers will do a phantom center as long as you have your center channel set to off (in the menu)

Wow, thats almost the exact same post I made when I bought my rf-7's...they came with the feet on, and had a few scuffs and scratches. I took them back to the dealer, and got ANOTHER pair...they too came with the feet on and also had scuffs on them. the dealer said they were both brand new pairs and didn't know what else to do, that they weren't too fond of me returning everything i bought (at that time i'd also bought a few other pairs of speakers and returned them) so they gave me a big discount for my trouble...then i called klipsch and they took care of it...they send a freight service to my home, picked them up, and a few weeks later i had a brand new pair from the factory. the feet were on them, manuals in clear plastic bags taped shut (just like my rf-5's were) no scuffs, perfect condition.

small room? 14x15x11 is pretty large 2310 ft^3. My room is 11x20x8 which is only 1760 ft^3. Since I bought my NAD C372 my rf-7's really shine. The low end is exceptional and I no longer desire a subwoofer. I have never had my equip. in a room with that much volume (your room is almost 25% larger) but I would recomend going to a local shop that has a good line of power amps w/spec's something like this: Class A (a must...class A amps are always driving the speaker, where as other A/B and C class amps only have control a fraction of the time) High current (check out the chart at http://www.nadelectronics.com/power/index.htm to see how high current amps stack up against standard amps) 100x2 min. (My 372 is 150x2 and on some good jazz tracks and drum solo's i've had it what i like to call "walk half a mile down the street and can still hear it" loud and it is so perfectly clean and clear and whoa, i better slow down or i'm gonna get excited...point being more power the better) Anyway...i went from a 110x2 @.015THD yamaha to my nad c372 and the different is awsome. the low end is so full but not overbearing...not boomy...just seemless...first track i played when i got it was dave weckl (spell?) master plan...the drum solo about 5 min. into it @~123db (so my spl meter said) almost made me cry...each drum strike was individual, nothing blended together, i could hear and feel each time he struck a drum the quick dynamic peak and the smooth roll off if you can find a NAD C272...give it a shot its the same amp as mine but w/out the integrated preamp...i use the preouts from my yamaha into my NAD, so you could do the same from your onkyo. take advantage of most places 7 or 14 day return period and see if you like it...its worth a shot before you decide to buy a sub. They wont give you a hard time about returning it, just say it wasn't what you expected and they'll take it back. Sorry to get off subject, but i honestly believe that the 7's have 100x more potential than most people know about. At high levels it will blow you away and put a big smile on your face...and at low levels the low end is still full and smooth. Good luck

I Just read the topic about Reference vs. Heritage a few points: reference being "bright" and "harsh" i NEVER thought my 5's were harsh...they're so sweet and flat...not as much range as the 7's on the low end but mid's and vocals were so on-point. I thought the 7's were a little bright til' i got the new amp...i realize it was just my old amplifier that wasn't smooth on the top end. the heritage line such as the k-horns and lascala roll off at 17khz vs 20khz for most other speakers...thats going to tone them down some and make them less "harsh" with the same amp that make the 7's sound "harsh". Also, most of the other klipsch speakers that are down 3 at 20k don't have the 102db efficiency of the 7's...which will makes them a little less prone to picking up the harshness of the amplifier. Midrange the 5's midrange was awsome...the 8's are perfectly suited for that job the 7's woofers move very little, even at full tilt they look like they're barely moving, its low end range is achieved by tuning. By moving little, they are quite good at producing the extra range needed by only being a 2-way. Low end it was stated that the 10's don't have the surface area of the 15's in the heritage line...while that may be true (15% less surface area) they're tuned very well and have maxed my spl meter out at 30hz (127db) i doubt the heritage line 15's have an extreme amount of excursion...being they were created in the 40's... ________________________________________________________ the 7's are outstanding. i've never heard a heritage speaker so i don't know what i'm missing i guess. I just can't believe it gets a whole lot better. I'm sure artto's setup sounds better than most of us have ever heard...just from pure room acoutical perfection. I'd like to see a pair of 5's or 7's in there.

I just picked up a NAD C372...WOW! For those who don't know the specs... 170x2 @.02%THD Class A amp (what it says in the man.) 150x2 @.02%THD Class A amp (what it says on the webpage) Either way WOW! My buddy (tunemanjjw) and i picked up a pair of them for $1120 at a retail store thats is dropping NAD. We went, we listened, we wanted to play w/the NADS (haha) at home...so we bought them. Went to his place and hooked it up to his rf-7's...switching out his Beast Sherwood Newcastle R-725...165x2@.02THD...which has always been the reference that we've compared things to... The NAD was much clearer, awsome quality...and articulates everything very well. like a light haze had been lifted. After playing for 3 hours I headed home (i was visiting him in Durham, NC and had to drive back to Winston-Salem) got home, hooked it up and listened softly for a few hours...the low end is so full and tight...much better than the old 110x2@.015THD yamaha reciever i was using. I woke up this morning...turned it on...my house is vacant (like a sign from God) so i cranked it with Dave Grusin - Days of Wine and Roses. AMAZING, I seriously almost started crying. Its the first time i've really approached live levels...and it was crystal clear the entire time. No cracking, wasn't bright at all, and the low end, OH MY the low end...I could feel it in my chest, my back, and my butt, every breath was full of it, and it may very well be the best thing i've ever experienced (maybe not...but its def. cool) ok...sorry, just had to express how amazed i am...the rf-7's sounded better on my equipment than anything else...but w/this new amp its something special...i really didn't know what the 7's had in them. Klipsch truely made an awsome speaker. Chris

5g's is a lot. RF-7's for $1900 (if your dealer isn't an ***) RC-7 for $ 642 this speaker is awsome RS-7's for $ 642 Denon 3805 $1000 I don't have a sub, and havn't played w/them (cause i know i'd want to take one home.) But an SVS 16-46PCi or two would be ample...or so i've read from other people on here. Sorry, don't know the price for those. that comes out to around $4200 which would leave you 800 for a sub. you could go w/rf-5's instead. they sound awsome, when i first got my 7's i had them side by side with the 5's and i thought the 5's sounded better...i put the 7's as mains b/c of the better low end extension, but you wouldn't need that with a pair of SVS subs. opting for the 5's would save you around 600 bucks. The reciever would give you room to upgrade later w/the 2 rear centers or whatever if you ever choose to.

Its just hard to find good sources of info online. I would like to find a good source w/lots of info that explains things thouroughly and provides proof that what they are saying is true in practice, and not just on paper. like you said, it is more difficult in smaller spaces, and most sources i've found use rooms w/9+foot ceilings, and more than 20feet wide and long. Maybe i'm just asking too much from my room, afterall it is a bedroom, office, 2ch. listening, and home theater room, all in a 8x11x20 space. I didn't mean to get upset about the cardas thing, but for my room its impossible for me to put my speakers that far into my room and still maintain good imaging (they would be like 2 feet infront of me). I should just trade in my car for a pair of khorns, at least that way i wouldn't have to worry about speaker placement. When i buy a house i'm going to have a giant room just for entertainment.

The reason i left the height axis off was that I cannon easily change the height of the speakers, I could build a small stand or something of that nature, but its not as easy to do as just moving the speaker in the x and y directions. Seating position is a separate beast, b/c you would really want to avoid sitting at any one of those nulls or peaks, but somewhere inbetween. Which is sometimes hard to do on the width axis because usually two channel listening forces you sit right in the center of the width axis to get the best imaging. Seating height and distance from the speakers is easy to adjust inbetween the nulls and peaks. I know you (artto)keep saying that you want to maximize the room modes, but I still don't understand that. I believe i remember that your room only has one seat that you can move and position in your exact sweet spot...where as my room has a loveseat where i usually watch movies and listen to music, and a bed where i occasionally listen to music. Since I am constantly moving throughout my room, would I not want the most even and constant sound throughout, in which case i would have to reduce the number of modes? Thanks for the responses again, its nice to have someplace to say what i think i have learned and to be corrected. theres so many different sources out there to read which several seem to contradict each other or maybe i don't quite get it. Should i just get the master handbook of acoustics? would that answer all of my questions? Chris

I mentioned something about the Cardas bit on my first post...after reading all the whitepapers on the harman page, the two don't go together at all. In the white paper "getting the bass right" they show the effects of placing subs (so here i have to assume the same effect would happen w/full range loudspeakers) at the a null point of any axial mode. If the speaker is placed at the null point, then that mode is not activated (in theory). So using the mode calculator on the harman site, w/my room dimensions ~8x11x20 ignoring the height modes, cause theres not a whole lot i can do regarding placement of the speakers up and down, i have modes at: Length: 133hz, first null @ 2.25 feet 100hz, first null @ 2.75 feet 66hz, first null @ 4.25 feet 33hz, only null @ 8.25 feet Width: 205hz, first null @ 1.50 feet 154hz, first null @ 2.75 feet 103hz, first null @ 4.25 feet 51hz, only null @ 5.50 feet so according to Cardas i i would place my speakers here: Length placement @ 11*.447 = 4.917 feet Width placement @ 11*.276 = 3.036 feet the placment on neither the length or width dimensions match up w/any of the corresponding nulls for any mode for that dimension my point w/this rambling is that getting false info pisses me off. somebody new/fairly new to acoustics (like myself) browsing the internet may find that site and really believe that what he says is true. Boo on him. I guess hes a good salesman tho, cause if he can convince people to buy crazy expensive cables, it probably doesn't take much to fool people into thinking he really knows what hes talking about. Let me know if i'm way off base, i just think its inapropriate to clame its the "only thing you need to place loudspeakers in a rectangular room" with no real proof or measurements or ANYTHING to validate his guesses.

Thanks a lot for the replys, i'll try those out and get back to you...i just hope i can figure them out. Chris

From previous posts, i've gathered a few room mode calculators (2 excel type calculators) including: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=131 and i can't find the link for the other one (dangit) anyway, both have inputs for room dimensions, but nothing about speaker placement (why not? i've read so much preaching about placement, and i've see the huge differences in placement myself, why don't these calculators include that?) is there any software that considers speaker placement? Also, that stuff from the Cardas link is such BS http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0602/cardas.html ...who can actually do that? a room would have to be very large to make it realistic, b/c not everybody can move speakers almost 7 feet into their room, thats crazy. i'll stop there, cause i don't want to make myself sound like too big an idiot.

Oh man, just got done using LP's for the only thing they're good for... as wheels for a mini-project car...just kidding i had to help my little brother w/a project due wed. morning, good thing he likes to start early, and only thing i could find for wheels were some of my stepdads old 45rpm records...i let him pick out the ones he didn't mind getting ruined. I would be interested in getting the mods done (not right now, but in the next few months) but would like to know what the sonic differences are. I see that you don't really bother w/the low end unless requested, so what are the differences on the high end. Also, I don't have a sub (gave up on subs after everybody in my dorm my freshman year hated me) so would changing the low pass section help extend the bottom end any? ahh, so tired...mythbusters time

Just saw a post that mentioned DeanG's crossover mod for the rf-7's, just wondering what the changes are (not technical, just in sound) and how I might go about getting the mod done. Thanks, Chris

I would go w/the rf-7's myself...my room is 11x20 (feet) and in that space i have a pair of rf-7's for mains, rf-5's for rears, and rc-7. After experimenting w/seating placement i found that 12 feet off the front wall is the best (for my room). good luck