ncsubum

"their high sensitivity makes them easy to pair with any old receiver" any old reciever will not do...the sensitivity brings out the best and worst of your reciever/amp... heres my journey and discoveries... bought rf-5's a little over a year ago --- rf-5's were so freakin' good sounding on my yamaha rx-v800 3 months later bought rf-7's --- sounded pretty darn good on the yamaha, but seemed too bright, and didn't have the bass response i expected...still MUCH better than other stuff i'd heard. some time later --- tried sherwood r-725 which is 165x2 and made the 7's shine...sounded so good, bass response was better, highs weren't as harsh, and spl was a good deal higher. a month ago --- bought a NAD C372...WOW! i didn't believe class A and high current would really be that much different...but i bought it on sale and figured i'd give it a shot...the bass output was better than i every could have imagined...and spl...oh my gosh...on good clean tracks i could just keep turning it up...never distorted, and was so loud that my nose was fluttering cause there was so much pressure. today --- got another C372...so each of the NAD's are bridged to one an rf-7...so they're getting 300wpc of good clean high current class A low distortion power. i hear things i didn't know were there. a lot of tracks have low undertones that kindof play softly in the background...i'd never heard them before and its quite hypnotizing. ---- point being...you are right, they are def. the easiest speaker in the store to get loud...but to really make them sound their very best make sure you get a good amp or reciever my buddy picked up a nad t753 (i think) thats 90x2 in stereo and 70x5 or 6 all channels driven, it still sounds just like the c372 just doesn't get quite as loud (only ~118 or 120db) but is still PLENTY loud. bass is very important to the percieved loudness. with the better bass reaponse i have now i find myself not turning it up as loud for normal listening...i mean...there are those times that i like to fling my drivers across the room, and i do it on a frequent basis...but honestly i think that if i had it to do over again...i'd go w/the rf-5's which don't bring out the worst of a reciever like the 7's do...the output is amazing for their size (they are only shy of the rf-7's output by like 4db) and i really really believe the midrange and vocals sound better than the 7's...matched with a good sub, like one of the svs subs tuned down to 16hz. you'd have the great sound of the 5's and even better extension than the 7's. go w/rf-5's they sound really good...or 7's if you want you should be able to pick up a good nad reciever for 1000 or less rs-7's for surrounds will do the trick rc-7 is very nice, i love the way it sounds. svs powered sub, never heard one, but everybody says they're good.

most recievers will do a phantom center as long as you have your center channel set to off (in the menu)

Wow, thats almost the exact same post I made when I bought my rf-7's...they came with the feet on, and had a few scuffs and scratches. I took them back to the dealer, and got ANOTHER pair...they too came with the feet on and also had scuffs on them. the dealer said they were both brand new pairs and didn't know what else to do, that they weren't too fond of me returning everything i bought (at that time i'd also bought a few other pairs of speakers and returned them) so they gave me a big discount for my trouble...then i called klipsch and they took care of it...they send a freight service to my home, picked them up, and a few weeks later i had a brand new pair from the factory. the feet were on them, manuals in clear plastic bags taped shut (just like my rf-5's were) no scuffs, perfect condition.

small room? 14x15x11 is pretty large 2310 ft^3. My room is 11x20x8 which is only 1760 ft^3. Since I bought my NAD C372 my rf-7's really shine. The low end is exceptional and I no longer desire a subwoofer. I have never had my equip. in a room with that much volume (your room is almost 25% larger) but I would recomend going to a local shop that has a good line of power amps w/spec's something like this: Class A (a must...class A amps are always driving the speaker, where as other A/B and C class amps only have control a fraction of the time) High current (check out the chart at http://www.nadelectronics.com/power/index.htm to see how high current amps stack up against standard amps) 100x2 min. (My 372 is 150x2 and on some good jazz tracks and drum solo's i've had it what i like to call "walk half a mile down the street and can still hear it" loud and it is so perfectly clean and clear and whoa, i better slow down or i'm gonna get excited...point being more power the better) Anyway...i went from a 110x2 @.015THD yamaha to my nad c372 and the different is awsome. the low end is so full but not overbearing...not boomy...just seemless...first track i played when i got it was dave weckl (spell?) master plan...the drum solo about 5 min. into it @~123db (so my spl meter said) almost made me cry...each drum strike was individual, nothing blended together, i could hear and feel each time he struck a drum the quick dynamic peak and the smooth roll off if you can find a NAD C272...give it a shot its the same amp as mine but w/out the integrated preamp...i use the preouts from my yamaha into my NAD, so you could do the same from your onkyo. take advantage of most places 7 or 14 day return period and see if you like it...its worth a shot before you decide to buy a sub. They wont give you a hard time about returning it, just say it wasn't what you expected and they'll take it back. Sorry to get off subject, but i honestly believe that the 7's have 100x more potential than most people know about. At high levels it will blow you away and put a big smile on your face...and at low levels the low end is still full and smooth. Good luck

I Just read the topic about Reference vs. Heritage a few points: reference being "bright" and "harsh" i NEVER thought my 5's were harsh...they're so sweet and flat...not as much range as the 7's on the low end but mid's and vocals were so on-point. I thought the 7's were a little bright til' i got the new amp...i realize it was just my old amplifier that wasn't smooth on the top end. the heritage line such as the k-horns and lascala roll off at 17khz vs 20khz for most other speakers...thats going to tone them down some and make them less "harsh" with the same amp that make the 7's sound "harsh". Also, most of the other klipsch speakers that are down 3 at 20k don't have the 102db efficiency of the 7's...which will makes them a little less prone to picking up the harshness of the amplifier. Midrange the 5's midrange was awsome...the 8's are perfectly suited for that job the 7's woofers move very little, even at full tilt they look like they're barely moving, its low end range is achieved by tuning. By moving little, they are quite good at producing the extra range needed by only being a 2-way. Low end it was stated that the 10's don't have the surface area of the 15's in the heritage line...while that may be true (15% less surface area) they're tuned very well and have maxed my spl meter out at 30hz (127db) i doubt the heritage line 15's have an extreme amount of excursion...being they were created in the 40's... ________________________________________________________ the 7's are outstanding. i've never heard a heritage speaker so i don't know what i'm missing i guess. I just can't believe it gets a whole lot better. I'm sure artto's setup sounds better than most of us have ever heard...just from pure room acoutical perfection. I'd like to see a pair of 5's or 7's in there.

I just picked up a NAD C372...WOW! For those who don't know the specs... 170x2 @.02%THD Class A amp (what it says in the man.) 150x2 @.02%THD Class A amp (what it says on the webpage) Either way WOW! My buddy (tunemanjjw) and i picked up a pair of them for $1120 at a retail store thats is dropping NAD. We went, we listened, we wanted to play w/the NADS (haha) at home...so we bought them. Went to his place and hooked it up to his rf-7's...switching out his Beast Sherwood Newcastle R-725...165x2@.02THD...which has always been the reference that we've compared things to... The NAD was much clearer, awsome quality...and articulates everything very well. like a light haze had been lifted. After playing for 3 hours I headed home (i was visiting him in Durham, NC and had to drive back to Winston-Salem) got home, hooked it up and listened softly for a few hours...the low end is so full and tight...much better than the old 110x2@.015THD yamaha reciever i was using. I woke up this morning...turned it on...my house is vacant (like a sign from God) so i cranked it with Dave Grusin - Days of Wine and Roses. AMAZING, I seriously almost started crying. Its the first time i've really approached live levels...and it was crystal clear the entire time. No cracking, wasn't bright at all, and the low end, OH MY the low end...I could feel it in my chest, my back, and my butt, every breath was full of it, and it may very well be the best thing i've ever experienced (maybe not...but its def. cool) ok...sorry, just had to express how amazed i am...the rf-7's sounded better on my equipment than anything else...but w/this new amp its something special...i really didn't know what the 7's had in them. Klipsch truely made an awsome speaker. Chris

5g's is a lot. RF-7's for $1900 (if your dealer isn't an ***) RC-7 for $ 642 this speaker is awsome RS-7's for $ 642 Denon 3805 $1000 I don't have a sub, and havn't played w/them (cause i know i'd want to take one home.) But an SVS 16-46PCi or two would be ample...or so i've read from other people on here. Sorry, don't know the price for those. that comes out to around $4200 which would leave you 800 for a sub. you could go w/rf-5's instead. they sound awsome, when i first got my 7's i had them side by side with the 5's and i thought the 5's sounded better...i put the 7's as mains b/c of the better low end extension, but you wouldn't need that with a pair of SVS subs. opting for the 5's would save you around 600 bucks. The reciever would give you room to upgrade later w/the 2 rear centers or whatever if you ever choose to.

Its just hard to find good sources of info online. I would like to find a good source w/lots of info that explains things thouroughly and provides proof that what they are saying is true in practice, and not just on paper. like you said, it is more difficult in smaller spaces, and most sources i've found use rooms w/9+foot ceilings, and more than 20feet wide and long. Maybe i'm just asking too much from my room, afterall it is a bedroom, office, 2ch. listening, and home theater room, all in a 8x11x20 space. I didn't mean to get upset about the cardas thing, but for my room its impossible for me to put my speakers that far into my room and still maintain good imaging (they would be like 2 feet infront of me). I should just trade in my car for a pair of khorns, at least that way i wouldn't have to worry about speaker placement. When i buy a house i'm going to have a giant room just for entertainment.

The reason i left the height axis off was that I cannon easily change the height of the speakers, I could build a small stand or something of that nature, but its not as easy to do as just moving the speaker in the x and y directions. Seating position is a separate beast, b/c you would really want to avoid sitting at any one of those nulls or peaks, but somewhere inbetween. Which is sometimes hard to do on the width axis because usually two channel listening forces you sit right in the center of the width axis to get the best imaging. Seating height and distance from the speakers is easy to adjust inbetween the nulls and peaks. I know you (artto)keep saying that you want to maximize the room modes, but I still don't understand that. I believe i remember that your room only has one seat that you can move and position in your exact sweet spot...where as my room has a loveseat where i usually watch movies and listen to music, and a bed where i occasionally listen to music. Since I am constantly moving throughout my room, would I not want the most even and constant sound throughout, in which case i would have to reduce the number of modes? Thanks for the responses again, its nice to have someplace to say what i think i have learned and to be corrected. theres so many different sources out there to read which several seem to contradict each other or maybe i don't quite get it. Should i just get the master handbook of acoustics? would that answer all of my questions? Chris

I mentioned something about the Cardas bit on my first post...after reading all the whitepapers on the harman page, the two don't go together at all. In the white paper "getting the bass right" they show the effects of placing subs (so here i have to assume the same effect would happen w/full range loudspeakers) at the a null point of any axial mode. If the speaker is placed at the null point, then that mode is not activated (in theory). So using the mode calculator on the harman site, w/my room dimensions ~8x11x20 ignoring the height modes, cause theres not a whole lot i can do regarding placement of the speakers up and down, i have modes at: Length: 133hz, first null @ 2.25 feet 100hz, first null @ 2.75 feet 66hz, first null @ 4.25 feet 33hz, only null @ 8.25 feet Width: 205hz, first null @ 1.50 feet 154hz, first null @ 2.75 feet 103hz, first null @ 4.25 feet 51hz, only null @ 5.50 feet so according to Cardas i i would place my speakers here: Length placement @ 11*.447 = 4.917 feet Width placement @ 11*.276 = 3.036 feet the placment on neither the length or width dimensions match up w/any of the corresponding nulls for any mode for that dimension my point w/this rambling is that getting false info pisses me off. somebody new/fairly new to acoustics (like myself) browsing the internet may find that site and really believe that what he says is true. Boo on him. I guess hes a good salesman tho, cause if he can convince people to buy crazy expensive cables, it probably doesn't take much to fool people into thinking he really knows what hes talking about. Let me know if i'm way off base, i just think its inapropriate to clame its the "only thing you need to place loudspeakers in a rectangular room" with no real proof or measurements or ANYTHING to validate his guesses.

Thanks a lot for the replys, i'll try those out and get back to you...i just hope i can figure them out. Chris

From previous posts, i've gathered a few room mode calculators (2 excel type calculators) including: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=131 and i can't find the link for the other one (dangit) anyway, both have inputs for room dimensions, but nothing about speaker placement (why not? i've read so much preaching about placement, and i've see the huge differences in placement myself, why don't these calculators include that?) is there any software that considers speaker placement? Also, that stuff from the Cardas link is such BS http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0602/cardas.html ...who can actually do that? a room would have to be very large to make it realistic, b/c not everybody can move speakers almost 7 feet into their room, thats crazy. i'll stop there, cause i don't want to make myself sound like too big an idiot.

Oh man, just got done using LP's for the only thing they're good for... as wheels for a mini-project car...just kidding i had to help my little brother w/a project due wed. morning, good thing he likes to start early, and only thing i could find for wheels were some of my stepdads old 45rpm records...i let him pick out the ones he didn't mind getting ruined. I would be interested in getting the mods done (not right now, but in the next few months) but would like to know what the sonic differences are. I see that you don't really bother w/the low end unless requested, so what are the differences on the high end. Also, I don't have a sub (gave up on subs after everybody in my dorm my freshman year hated me) so would changing the low pass section help extend the bottom end any? ahh, so tired...mythbusters time

Just saw a post that mentioned DeanG's crossover mod for the rf-7's, just wondering what the changes are (not technical, just in sound) and how I might go about getting the mod done. Thanks, Chris

I would go w/the rf-7's myself...my room is 11x20 (feet) and in that space i have a pair of rf-7's for mains, rf-5's for rears, and rc-7. After experimenting w/seating placement i found that 12 feet off the front wall is the best (for my room). good luck

its 4:30 in the morning on the dawn of my moving day...the cars packed...the rf-7's are in the back seat covered w/towels and pillows (me getting two rf-7's in the back seat of my 98 v6 accord BY MYSELF with absolutely no dings, dents, or scratches proves that rome could have been built in a day)...anyway... since one of my roomates is being so kind as to blast the fast and the furious in the livingroom waking me up from my not-so-deep moving anxiety stricken sleep i figured i'd entertain myself on the klipsch page looking at the promedia 4.2 set i see that it is "THX" rated whereas the r(f,s,c)-7 line is not...just wondering if there is any reason they aren't thx rated while the lesser performing pc speakers are. has the reference line just never been tested? did the guys in marketing not feel it was important to label them as such since they obviously have the performance required? do i need to trade all my stuff up for a set of 4.2's cause i'm missing the true thx experience? blah! the rating doesn't mean much to me since my reference stuff blows away everybody elses HT i know thx rated or not...i'm just curious as to why they are not rated when it seems they perform above and beyond that of most others. also...who do i need to contact to get some of the famous klipsch "bullsh^!" pins/stickers? cause i'd love to go around putting them on other peoples gear i feel is less than satisfactory thanks, chris

while you had them apart did you take the time to dust your drivers? speakers need love too! of course...i'm an anal neat freak. i guess w/the grille on it doesn't really matter

Come on artto...you need me to come by and show you how its done? (see pic now) open in a new window if you can so you can follow my explanations Wow...let me explain the setup. I'll go from left to right. 1) Left RF-7 ... klipschorn what? who wants those ragedy old things (not me)<-- yeah right 2) big desk ... nothing controls absorbtion/diffusion like a giant chunck of wood. 3) lcd monitor on top of reciever ... expertly placed to control reflections off the front wall...damn i'm good 4) big *** (for a bedroom) tv ... don't know how it affects the sound...but its def. better since i put the tv there. 5) picture of my mom, girlfriend, and a vanilla scented air freshener...same purpose as the monitor, to control reflections off the front wall. (they have been moved now to make room for the rc-7 i just got) 6) Right RF-7 ... with the grille pulled off ... cause you know... it helps the psychoacoustics (nice word btw...dr artto) 7) rolled up poster and nc state calander...wow don't let the apperance fool you...auralex lernd doesn't have anything on the poster. and the exact twist and placement of the rubberbands is very important...contact me if you need details on how to create your own 8) just barely in the pic. is my desk hutch which had to be removed to make way for the acoustical gains of the big *** tv...but the hutch on the floor really helps to difuse and absorb the sound by trapping and reflecting via the cubby holes. 9) my full sized bed. i know what your thinkin' and yeah...thats where the magic happens (or sometimes the chair you see)...yep i listen to my music right there, i know you guys are jealous. the new cool looking comforter is actually specially designed to reduce standing waves and absorb some of the 'brightness' that comes w/the yamaha reciever i have 10) Last addition...the center channel on top of the tv. you see...people think that having the center channel that high makes things panning accross the front stage sound like they jump up...but i believe having the center channel there does something good... Thanks for starting this thread...i was really looking for a reason to show off my awsome room. --------- ok...for real, you are awsome. I'd love to get the chance to listen. I hope this didn't offend you in any way. i don't think its a joke how overboard your room is, because i think its great. I'm just in the middle of my exam week and needed to take a break and humor myself (yeah, this post was really just for me.) I'm moving home this weekend and will be moving all my stuff into a better room at which point i may try to solicit your knowledge if i can't find answers in your other posts. Thanks again for all your responses on room acoustics I'm sure they will help me at some point down the road. Chris

Thanks for the response, I played w/it with a crappy mic that came with my audigy 2 sound card and did a few frequency sweeps. Sound Forge showed me that it jumps all over the place, which i actually noticed during one of the 15-280 sweeps I did, after 40hz or so its almost like a roller coaster with peaks and vallys. I'm not sure what to do about it since this is my theater room and my bedroom. Oh well, i'm leaving this apartment in 2 weeks and moving into my stepdads old house, maybe then I'll be able to tweak/tune the room.

Artto, After seeing the post on ETF I downloaded it and would like to play w/it some but i'm really not sure where to start. What process do you go through to determine how flat the speaker response is? A play by play would be nice if you could spare the time...not too much, just a "Room Acoustics measurement and Analysis with nothing more than a sound card and a free program" for dummies guide. Most importantly...what type of mic do you use that has a good range and flat response? Thanks very much

I'm W/Caz, JL is the way to go. Big time bang for the buck. I just finished my new car with a pair of JL XR-650csi's in the front door with the tweeter mounted flush in the door about 4 inches above the mid (to clear any legs which may be in the way). In the rear deck I have an old pair of Boston Rally RC-67 components with the tweeter mounted on the front dash firing off the front windshield aimed at the opposite passenger. This arrangement really helps pull the image to the center. I use a potentiometer/l-pad to lower the volume of the boston tweeters. Powering all that is a JL 300/4 which is excellent. For the low end I have a JL 15w3 and a way cheap SoundStorm (knockoff brand) amp rated for 170x4 into 4 ohms, doesn't pick up any into 2ohms. I wasn't expecting much b/c i compare everything to my rf-7's, but was pleasently supprised with how good it sounds. Total Cost: Sony ES head unit $300 off ebay 2 years ago SoundStorm amp $170 online 2 years ago JL XR-650's $300 at the local place I bought my 7's and 5's from JL 300/4 $350 at the same place JL 15w3 $220 online 4 years ago Bostons $ 75 online So, for less than $1,500 I have imaging as good as in my home, better low end extension, more than ample volume, and fairly flat frequency response between 30 and however high my spl metter goes. but i'm just a stupid 21 year old college kid w/no money.

I use an Audigy II Platinum w/the live drive. I use an optical cable to connect to my reciever and then to my 7's and 5's. W/no signal I can turn the reciever to 80% of max (I'd never turn it up that loud w/music playing...too loud) before I hear any noise at all. I leave my "Master volume" and "Wave/MP3" and "CD Audio" turned all the way up, everything else is muted.

Anybody know what Brand Name/Color Name of stain I should buy to apply to birch so it will match the color of cherry RF-5's and 7's? I don't have much experience w/stain so I can't tell what color stain on paper will match that of the speakers. I'm building a desk/entertainment center combo for my 12x14 college apartment bedroom. Going in this hopefully attractive package will be my 19" lcd monitor, 42" HDTV, reciever, xbox, dvd player, computer, stacks of dvd's (~200), and wireless mouse and keyboard, all of which i have modeled using solidworks (3d modeling program) so i know exactly what it will look like when its done. I'm starting the construction phase tomm. and should have all the parts cut to size by the end of the day at which point I will hopefully begin to sand and stain the monster. At 64" wide, 60" tall and 30" deep, i'll have a lot of sanding and staining to do. I'd like to start the staining process as soon as possible b/c i'm leaving to go home for a long weekend on friday and would like to get the project done before then (to not leave my roomates w/a huge mess over the weekend). Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

I'm actually starting to enjoy them a lot more... maybe i am just fooling myself into thinking they sound better, but one of my favorite things to do is set the sleep timer on my amp when i'm going to bed for like 30 min, and listen to music at a really low level. the 5's sounded very full, and even played the low notes well at very low volumes. at first the 7's didn't do that, but i believe now they are doing that just as well as that 5's did, if not better. i have had them playing music pretty much non-stop since i hooked them up, and i really do believe in the break-in. should it be fantasy or reality that they sound better, i really don't know...but either way i like it...or it could just be the multiple glasses of wine i had last night while listening/playing to/with them. I feel like my 5's are the neglected middle child now, cause they are just sitting there not hooked up i'm going to have to move my bathroom door so it opens to the bathroom instead of into my bedroom (yeah, i have the handicap bathroom thats massive) because if i were to use the 5's as rears i know that somebody would slam the door into them, and i would go to jail for administering the worst beating of their lives. what styles of music do you think sounds the best w/the 7's? I listen to pretty much everything (i'm not a big country fan, but i listen to it sometimes b/c it sounds so good). anyway, thanks again for the posts

Fish, i see that you have the avr3803...i was really close to buying the 4803 when i got the 7's...they had it misslabled at 1,200 from 2,500...how do you like your 3803? does it sound smooth and hmm...tame w/your 7's? When i listened to it (b/c the 4803 wasn't connected for some reason) on the rf-5's they had in the demo room it sounded awsome, but so does my yamaha on the 5's, so i really didn't know if it was the amp or just the speakers.